Confessing / "Having" / Knowing The Monogenic Son of God [49]

[Johann]

Confessing / "Having" / Knowing The Monogenic Son of God [49]

Matthew 7:23 ⇒ "I never knew you" from Jesus equals Hell.

Matthew 10:32-33 | Luke 12:8-9 ⇒

Whoever acknowledges me before people, I will acknowledge before my Father

in heaven. But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven.

Matthew 11:27 ⇒ No one knows The Son except The Father, and no one knows The

Father except The Son and anyone to whom The Son decides to reveal Him.

Matthew 16:16 ⇒ Speaking by the Holy Spirit, Peter said Jesus was The Son of the

Living God, and Jesus said He would build His church on it.

Matthew 21:41 | Mark 12:9 | Luke 20:16 ⇒

Those who killed/rejected The Son will be destroyed.

Matthew 25:12 ⇒ "I do not know you" from the Bridegroom equals exclusion from

the wedding feast.

Luke 2:34 ⇒ The source of a falling and rising for many in Israel.

Luke 13:27-28 ⇒ Those whom The Son knows not will be thrown out of the Kingdom

of God, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 3:15-18 ⇒ Everyone who believes in The Son of Man—who must be lifted up

like Moses's serpent—may have eternal life. Everyone who trusts in The One and Only Son is not condemned nor will perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 ⇒ The one who trusts in The Son has eternal life. The one who rejects The

Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

John 5:40 ⇒ You are not willing to come to Me so that you may have life.

(The point of the contention was Sonship, just raised in John 5:18 where the audience

recognized it was a claim of equality with God.)

John 5:43 ⇒ Not receiving The Son, even though He comes in The Father's Name.

(This was "not having the love of God within you," v.42, and "not having eternal life," v.40.)

John 6:29 ⇒ The deed God The Father requires is to believe in the One whom He sent

[The Son].

John 6:40 ⇒ The will of The Father is for everyone to have eternal life who looks

unto The Son and believes in him, and Jesus will raise him up in the Last Day.

John 6:47 ⇒ The one who believes has eternal life.

John 8:21 ⇒ "I am going away, and you will look for me but will die in your sin."

John 11:29 ⇒ The one who believes in Him will never die.

John 12:36 ⇒ "Believe in The Light so that you may become sons of Light."

(Answered the question from v.34, "Who is this Son of Man?")

John 14:1 ⇒ "You believe in God. Believe also in Me."

(The Son because v.2 was "…my Father’s house…")

John 14:6 ⇒ "No one comes to The Father except through me."

John 17:3 ⇒ Knowing Father-and-Son is eternal life.

John 17:8 ⇒ The Eleven have accepted The Son is "from God."

This was also said in 16:27 by Jesus, but at 16:29-30 The Eleven finally

understood it fully, that He is ontologically equal with The Father, and now Jesus restates it of His true followers, as a dividing line.

John 20:31b ⇒ Jesus's signs are recorded in John's gospel so that the reader

may believe He is The Son of God, and thus have life in His Name.

Acts 22:14 ⇒ Sins washed away by calling on His Name.

Romans 8:1 ⇒ "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ

Jesus."

(Paul then exposits this was accomplished "By sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin He condemned sin in the flesh.")

Galatians 4:4 ⇒ "God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem

those who were under the Law, so that we may be adopted as sons."

Colossians 1:14 ⇒ In "The Son of His love" we have forgiveness of sins.

This Son is "image of the invisible God" (v.15), all things in Heaven and on Earth were created in Him (v.16), He is before all things and all things are held together in Him (v.17), and the fullness of God dwells in Him (v.19).

Colossians 1:22 ⇒ "But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through

death to present you holy, without blemish, and blameless before Him"

The final "Him" is The Father (v.19, also "Himself" from v.20).

1 Thessalonians 1:10 ⇒ Christians wait for The Son from Heaven, our deliverer from

the coming wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:15 ⇒ He "came into the world to save sinners."

1 Thessalonians 1:16 ⇒ those who believe in The Son receive eternal life

"Christ Jesus" is a general ascription in v.16; Sonship is in view. He was described as having "come into the world to save sinners" in v.15, and is contrasted with a distinctive litany of descriptors denoting The Father in v.17.

Hebrews 2:14 ⇒ The Son made into flesh defeated the Devil who formerly held

power over Death itself.

Hebrews 3:1 ⇒ Jesus is the "apostle and high priest" whom those in God's house (v.2)

confess [in a salvific sense].

"Apostle" corresponds to the χαρακτήρ of God (1:3), who is God Himself (1:8), The Son who was sent into the world by being "made lower than the angels for a little while" (2:9).

Hebrews 4:14 ⇒ "Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed

through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession."

Hebrews 7:25 ⇒ This new High Priest, who is not of the tribe of mere humankind

(v.13), "is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them."
(v.28: "a Son made perfect forever")

Hebrews 10:5-6 ⇒ When the High Priest "came into the world," He said, "Sacrifice

and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me. Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in." It is He, rather than "the blood of bulls and goats" (v.4) that will "take away sins" (v.4).

Hebrews 10:28-29 ⇒ Someone who rejected the Law of Moses was put to death. How

much greater punishment exists for those who "trample underfoot The Son of God" (καταπατέω).

Hebrews 12:22-23 ⇒ Christians have entered into the assembly and congregation of

the Firstborn.

1 Peter 1:20 ⇒ He was known before the foundation of the world but manifested in

order to be the salvific ransom.

1 John 2:22b-23 ⇒ He who denies The Son does not have The Father.

1 John 3:23a ⇒ The commandment to all Christians entails believing in the name of

His Son, and by this one resides in God (v.24).

1 John 4:15 ⇒ If anyone confesses that Jesus is The Son of God, God abides in him

and he in God.

1 John 5:5 ⇒ The Christian believes that Jesus is The Son of God.

1 John 5:10 ⇒ The one who does not believe The Father's testimony about The Son

makes God out to be a liar/false one.

1 John 5:12 ⇒ The one who has (ὁ ἔχων) The Son of God has (ἔχει) eternal life. The one

who does not, does not.

2 John 1:9 ⇒ The one who remains in the teaching of Christ has (ἔχει) God: The

Father and The Son.

Revelation 12:11b ⇒ The saved overcame the Accuser by the word of their testimony

in the blood of The Lamb (who is the blooded Son of God).



Confessing / Honoring / Saved by Jesus as Yahweh [31]

Mark 12:34 ⇒ Believing The Shema alone does not save.

Jesus quoted The Shema [Mk 12:29]. A scribe affirmed it, but then the scribe also quoted Deuteronomy 4:35: “He is one, and there is no one else beside Him.” Jesus said the scribe was “not far from the Kingdom of God”—but very notably not “in” it. Believing Deuteronomy 6:4-5; Leviticus 19:18; and Deuteronomy 4:35 was not enough! The very next paragraph in Mark’s Gospel has Jesus quoting Psalm 110:1, where there is someone beside YHWH: the lord of David who is also David’s descendant. The corollary is that “the Lord” beside The Father is also YHWH, and lack of belief in that is what separated the scribe from the Kingdom. (A similar claim caused the High Priest to tear his clothes and clam no need for more witnesses [Mk 14:62-64].)



John 5:23 ⇒ "The one who does not honor The Son just as they honor The Father

does not honor The Father."

καθώς has a semantic range, but here it means “exactly as.”



John 8:24 ⇒ "Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

The immediate context was John 8:23, in which Jesus declared, "You are from Below; I am from Above. You are from this world; I am not from this world." The pericopal references of "I am" culminate in John 8:58, where Jesus calls Himself the great "I AM," which colors the meanings of the progressive "I am" statements nearby (a phenomenon called cataphora). But even by itself 8:23 is ontological, declaring that Jesus is not native to Earth. The reader of John is already in on the secret: Jesus is God from 1:1, and God The Only Son from 1:18. If one does not believe He is God, one will die in one's sins.



John 10:28–30 ⇒ Jesus's sheep listen to His voice; no one can snatch them from the

hand of The Son because no one can snatch them from the hand of The Father—He and The Father are one.

John 10:38 ⇒ Humans must know and understand that Jesus is in The Father and

The Father is in Him.

John 20:28-29 ⇒ After Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!", Jesus tied it to

[saving] belief.

Acts 2:21 ⇒ All those who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved [Joel 2:32].

Acts 3:14-15 ⇒ "You rejected the Holy and Righteous One…you killed the Originator of

Life."

Acts 11:17 ⇒ God gave the indwelling Holy Spirit to Gentiles after they believe in “the

Lord Jesus Christ.”

Acts 16:31, 34 ⇒ "Believe in The Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

Immediately after the jailor of Thyatira had been told “Believe in The Lord Jesus and you will be saved,” it says he rejoiced because “he had believed in God.” Even if the triune God generally or The Father specifically was denoted in v.34, this is an extreme conflation and direct ascriptional equation of Jesus with God, all within an explicit soteriological statement.

Rom 10:9 ⇒ Only the one who confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved.
Rom 10:13 ⇒ Everyone who calls on The Name of the Lord will be saved [Joel 2:32].

Jesus is the Lord here; Paul replaced Him in the quotation as Yahweh.

1 Corinthians 1:2d ⇒ The Church of God consists of "all those in every place who call

on The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their lord and ours."

"Call on The Name of" is a technical phrase used by the Jews of YHWH (cf. Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32).

1 Corinthians 8:6 ⇒ After citing The Shema in v.4, Paul continues "For us there is one

God…and one Lord…."
The word "Lord" is the one that matches "YHWH" in The Shema, and here Paul is identifying Him as Jesus. This becomes a soteriological matter because Paul said "for us," meaning The Church.

Philippians 3:8 ⇒ "all things" are liabilities (to salvation) "compared to the far

greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord."
Paul repeats the concept in 3:20 using Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, and there Κύριος = YHWH.

Philippians 3:20 ⇒ we await a savior from Heaven, "Lord Jesus Christ," where "Lord"

signifies Yahweh, who will transform all humans' bodies into the likeness of His own.

Colossians 2:6 ⇒ Christians by definition have received "The Christ Jesus The LORD,"

having been rooted and built up in Him and firm in faith in Him.

Colossians 2:8-9 ⇒ Paul tells the Colossians to not be taken captive by an empty,

deceitful, non-Christian philosophy and then immediately contrasts it with, "For in Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, and you have been filled in Him."

Colossians 2:11 ⇒ In Him (the one in whom "all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily

form") Christians "also were circumcised," which is further described in v.12 as being buried and raised with Him.

1 Timothy 3:15-16 ⇒ "God," "The Living God," "was manifest in flesh…believed on in

the world." This is described as the great axiom of piety, and the believing is salvific in sense.

1 Timothy 4:10 ⇒ "we have set our hope on The Living God [who was Jesus in 3:15-16],

who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers."

2 Timothy 1:9 ⇒ salvation was granted to humans in Christ Jesus before time began
Titus 1:3–4 ⇒ "God our Savior" in v.3 becomes "God The Father and Christ Jesus our

Savior" in v.4.

Titus 2:13 ⇒ "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"
Titus 2:14b ⇒ Jesus gave Himself on the cross "to purify for Himself a purified people

who are truly His."
This the sole domain of Yahweh (Exod 19:5; 23:22; Deut 7:6; 14:2; Mal 3:17; Jer 31:31-33; Ezek 37:23-28).

Hebrews 13:12 ⇒ Jesus sanctified the People by His own blood.
2 Peter 1:1 ⇒ saving faith is granted through "our God and Savior" Jesus Christ

2 Peter 2:1 ⇒ Destructive heresies brought by False Teachers, who will even "deny the

Master who bought them."
Lesser markedness of meaning here might have Messiahship or lordship in view. But the correlation of the verb "bought" to both the ransom which Jesus effected and the cosmic planning inherent to this context, coupled with the rare use of δεσπότης (Peter at Acts 4:24 and Jude at Jude 1:4) likely denote Jesus in His role as Yahweh.

Jude 1:4 ⇒ Evil men "deny The Only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Revelation 21:22 ⇒ The Temple of the New Jerusalem "are" The-Lord-God-and-The-

Lamb.

Revelation 22:3 ⇒ God+Lamb's servants, the only ones who are not in the Lake of

Fire, will worship Him.


CONFESSING / BELIEVING / SAVED BY THE SPIRIT [8]

Colossians 2:12 ⇒ Believers are raised to eternal life through belief in the active

movement of the Power of God [The Spirit] who raised Jesus from the dead.

Titus 2:11 ⇒ The Holy Spirit, here given the ascription "the grace of God" is bringing

salvation to all people.

Even though "appearing" or "shining upon" (ἐπιφαίνω) is the verb here and 2:13 uses ἐπιφάνεια of Jesus, the grace of God in 2:11 correlates semantically to the content immediately following in 2:12: "trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age." "Grace" doesn't "teach/train" (παιδεύω). This is the function of The Spirit [e.g., Neh 9:20 (שׂכל); Luke 12:12; John 14:26 (helps the disciples remember everything Jesus spoke to them); 1 Cor 2:13 (teaching and explaining spiritual things)].

Titus 3:5 ⇒ God saved us "through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of

the Holy Spirit."

Hebrews 6:4–8 ⇒ Those who have become partakers (μέτοχος) of the Holy Spirit but

then have fallen away (παραπίπτω) cannot come again to repentance, are "useless, near to a curse," and their fate is to be burned.

The "falling away" here is genuine "apostasy" (the word the NET chooses), not lesser ideas of "deviating" or "drifting." Paul asserts elsewhere that God is faithful to the faithless [2 Tim 2:12a], but denies those who deny Him [2 Tim 2:12b].

2 Peter 1:3 ⇒ God's divine power (usually the Holy Spirit) has bestowed on us

everything necessary for [the Christian] life.

1 John 4:13-14 ⇒ By this believers know they abide in God: "He has given us His Spirit,

and we testify that The Father has sent The Son to be the Savior of the World."

Revelation 21:6 ⇒ "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the

end. To the one who is thirsty I will give water free of charge from the spring of the water of life."

Revelation 22:17 ⇒ "Let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wants it take

the water of life free of charge"



SAVED BY THE TRIUNE GOD [7]

Ephesians 2:18 ⇒ Through Christ we have access in One Spirit to The Father.

Contrasted with being "without God" (v.12), so this one is soteriological.

Colossians 2:13 ⇒ The triune God (God, His Power, and Jesus from v.12) made us alive

with Him, having forgiven all our transgressions, after we were dead in those transgressions.

Hebrews 9:14 ⇒ "the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself

without blemish to God [The Father], purify our consciences from dead works to worship the Living God."

Hebrews 10:10–18 ⇒ The New Covenant, which is the means of removing sin and

providing salvation, is instituted by the will of The Father (v.10a), the self-offering of The Son (v.10b), and the non-remembrance of human sin by The Spirit (v.17).

Hebrews 10:19–23 ⇒ The hope of eternal life which Christians confess is based on

the trustworthy promise of The Father (v.23), who sent The Son as "great priest" over His house (v.21), after whose blood was given (v.19) the Holy Spirit translated it to the spiritual realm by sprinkling Christian hearts clean from an evil conscience (v.22).

1 Peter 1:2 ⇒ believers are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God The Father

by being set apart by The Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with Jesus Christ's blood.

1 Peter 1:3-5 ⇒ Salvation achieved by faith in the triune God: The Father mercifully

gave humans new birth by resurrecting The Son (v.3), and faith in Him is protected by the Holy Spirit (v.5, "God's power").

Soteriology | The Triunity of God

www.thetriunityofgod.com

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Confessing / "Having" / Knowing The Monogenic Son of God [49]

Matthew 7:23 ⇒ "I never knew you" from Jesus equals Hell.

Sure.
But when Jesus says "I never knew you" in Matthee 7:23 he is refering to those who practice evil.

But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.

So, my dear brother, be careful not trying to apply this verse to those people who have different concepts or ideas about the metaphysical nature of Christ or a given aspect of Christ mission.

Mattew 7:23 does not apply to a Unitarian, or Jehovah Witness, or Mormon, or Catholic, or Muslim, or Jew, or Baha'i who are following and honoring Christ by yielding the fruit of the Spirit instead of practicing evil.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If one does not believe He is God, one will die in one's sins.

If you think you can forgive your Unitarian neighbor who stole 1000 rands from you, but God can't forgive him, because he does not accept Jesus as God, you have not understood the most basic teaching of Jesus about how God's mercy operates, present across the gospels over and over.

Furthermore, you have not understood the teachings of your mother and grandmother about God's forgiveness, and you need to go back to a five-year-old child to teach you some Theology.

I am just speaking rhetorically here. I know that, in your heart, YOU KNOW that God forgives Muslims, Jews or Jehovah Witness who come to Him with a broken, contrite heart. I beg you just to reflect.

a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure.
But when Jesus says "I never knew you" in Matthee 7:23 he is refering to those who practice evil.

But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.

So, my dear brother, be careful not trying to apply this verse to those people who have different concepts or ideas about the metaphysical nature of Christ or a given aspect of Christ mission.

Mattew 7:23 does not apply to a Unitarian, or Jehovah Witness, or Mormon, or Catholic, or Muslim, or Jew, or Baha'i who are following and honoring Christ by yielding the fruit of the Spirit instead of practicing evil.

Anyone who does not worship Jesus as God is practicing evil. Everyone has sinned, and Jesus is the only way to righteousness, so anyone who is not in Christ is still in evil and practicing evil. This applies to Christian, unitarian, jw, mormon, catholic, muslim, buddhist, baha'i, or any other religion or lack thereof.

 

[civic]

Sincerity is not how truth is determined. Many people can be sincerely wrong in their beliefs.

 

[Doug Brents]

If you think you can forgive your Unitarian neighbor who stole 1000 rands from you, but God can't forgive him, because he does not accept Jesus as God, you have not understood the most basic teaching of Jesus about how God's mercy operates, present across the gospels over and over.

Furthermore, you have not understood the teachings of your mother and grandmother about God's forgiveness, and you need to go back to a five-year-old child to teach you some Theology.

I am just speaking rhetorically here. I know that, in your heart, YOU KNOW that God forgives Muslims, Jews or Jehovah Witness who come to Him with a broken, contrite heart. I beg you just to reflect.

a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

No one can come to the Father (and be saved) except through Jesus. Yes, I can forgive the person who steals from me, but God will not forgive him if he does not come to the Father through Jesus. Because his sin is not just against me, but against God as well. Remember when David murdered Bathsheba's husband. When David prayed to God for forgiveness, he did not confess his sin against Bathsheba, or against her husband, but his sin against God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No one can come to the Father (and be saved) except through Jesus. Yes, I can forgive the person who steals from me, but God will not forgive him if he does not come to the Father through Jesus.

Do you mean that God will never forgive the Unitarian even if he repents and even if you forgive him?
Why would you prove to be more merciful than God?
Isn’t God infinitely more merciful and wise than you?
When you forgive your daughter for something she did wrong to you, do you first demand her, as a condition to be forgiven, to answer correctly a quiz about your date of birth, weight, blood type and culinary preferences?

Because his sin is not just against me, but against God as well. Remember when David murdered Bathsheba's husband. When David prayed to God for forgiveness, he did not confess his sin against Bathsheba, or against her husband, but his sin against God.

When David prayed to God for forgiveness, David did not make a single mention of the deity of a future Messiah. Did Nathan fail to explain to him that such confession was a requisite to be forgiven? Please read the prayer:

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in Your sight,
so that You are justified when You speak,
and You are blameless when You judge.
5 I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me.
6 You desire truth in the inward parts,
and in the hidden part You make me to know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
and sinners will return to You.
14 Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in Your good pleasure;
build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
then they will offer young bulls on Your altar

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sincerity is not how truth is determined. Many people can be sincerely wrong in their beliefs.

Of course, civic. And so what?
You may be wrong in your beliefs as well…. And so what?

Can you remember one single instance in your life in which God refused to forgive you due to an error in your Theology?

I cannot remember one single instance in mine… and look, I have been Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon, atheist for 20 years, and finally Baha’i. I have been Trinitarian and Unitarian. Atheist, pantheist, theist. I have believed all kind of things and have been mistaken in all kind of things… and never, never ever God left me alone in my sin or guilt. I testify of his Love and my smallness. His wealth and my poverty. His power and my weakness.

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you mean that God will never forgive the Unitarian even if he repents and even if you forgive him?

It doesn't matter what label you put on a person, according to God there are only two categories of people: lost and saved. If a person is lost (and everyone becomes lost) then the ONLY way to become saved is through Jesus Christ. You cannot become "not lost"/saved unless you come to the Father through Jesus. God will forgive anyone for any sin if they come to the Father through Jesus, but He has said that He won't forgive anyone for even the least of sin if they do not come to Him through Jesus.

Why would you prove to be more merciful than God?
Isn’t God infinitely more merciful and wise than you?
When you forgive your daughter for something she did wrong to you, do you first demand her, as a condition to be forgiven, to answer correctly a quiz about your date of birth, weight, blood type and culinary preferences?

God is much more wise and forgiving than anyone, including myself, but He has also set certain parameters around His forgiveness. You must come to Him through Jesus, in faith, obediently doing what He has said leads to receiving His forgiveness (repenting of your sin, confessing Jesus as your Lord, and being baptized in water).

When David prayed to God for forgiveness, David did not make a single mention of the deity of a future Messiah. Did Nathan fail to explain to him that such confession was a requisite to be forgiven? Please read the prayer:

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in Your sight,
so that You are justified when You speak,
and You are blameless when You judge.
5 I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me.
6 You desire truth in the inward parts,
and in the hidden part You make me to know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
and sinners will return to You.
14 Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in Your good pleasure;
build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
then they will offer young bulls on Your altar

No, David, who lived somewhere around 1200 years before Jesus, did not need to acknowledge the deity of the Messiah because they knew very little about who and what the Messiah would be at that time. At that time, he was only required repent, to acknowledge the Lordship of the Father, and to surrender himself to Him.

 

[civic]

Of course, civic. And so what?
You may be wrong in your beliefs as well…. And so what?

Can you remember one single instance in your life in which God refused to forgive you due to an error in your Theology?

I cannot remember one single instance in mine… and look, I have been Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon, atheist for 20 years, and finally Baha’i. I have been Trinitarian and Unitarian. Atheist, pantheist, theist. I have believed all kind of things and have been mistaken in all kind of things… and never, never ever God left me alone in my sin or guilt. I testify of his Love and my smallness. His wealth and my poverty. His power and my weakness.

so you are saying you were saved when you were an atheist who denied God ?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

so you are saying you were saved when you were an atheist who denied God ?

No. At that time, in my case, I didn't ask God and my brothers for forgiveness, nor reflected on my spiritual condition, my impotence, or the damage I was causing. So I was not saved.
My apologies for not being precise in my statement.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It doesn't matter what label you put on a person, according to God there are only two categories of people: lost and saved. If a person is lost (and everyone becomes lost) then the ONLY way to become saved is through Jesus Christ. You cannot become "not lost"/saved unless you come to the Father through Jesus. God will forgive anyone for any sin if they come to the Father through Jesus, but He has said that He won't forgive anyone for even the least of sin if they do not come to Him through Jesus.

What do you mean by "through Jesus", my brother?

Remember that, in my example, the person who stole from you 1000 rands is a Unitarian neighbor, who does not believe in the deity of Jesus, but believes in the gospel of Jesus.

God is much more wise and forgiving than anyone, including myself, but He has also set certain parameters around His forgiveness.

According to Jesus, his parameters are those of humility, and the mercy we show to others.
That's crystal clear in Jesus teachings
I beg you to refer to

• the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector, in which Jesus illustrated how God justifies a person
• the story of the king who forgave the debt of his subject, in which Jesus ilustrated how God extends his mercy to a person
• the story of the prodigal son, in which Jesus ilustrated what The Father welcomes back his sons.
• the mercy to others as requisite to obtain mercy (Mathew 5:7; Mat 6:12, 18:35

You must come to Him through Jesus, in faith, obediently doing what He has said leads to receiving His forgiveness (repenting of your sin, confessing Jesus as your Lord, and being baptized in water).

No, David, who lived somewhere around 1200 years before Jesus, did not need to acknowledge the deity of the Messiah because they knew very little about who and what the Messiah would be at that time. At that time, he was only required repent, to acknowledge the Lordship of the Father, and to surrender himself to Him.

Then God has a way to forgive people, which does not involve knowing things about Jesus.
Otherwise,

• God would have sent prophet Nathan, and all prophets of Israel, with an explicit message for people to believe in the deity, blood atonement and resurrection of a future Messiah.
• God would have prophets and then the apostles to all countries at once, or raised apostles with the same message in every single country

The fact that God did not bother to send this message to all his children for thousands of years, speaks loudly that God does NOT need the sinner to hold those doctrines in order to be forgiven.

 

[Johann]

What do you mean by "through Jesus", my brother?

δι' ἐμοῦ (di’ emou) - "through me" (John 14:6).

Right after saying he is “the way,” Jesus adds, "No one comes to the Father except through me." The Greek preposition δι’ (di’), meaning "through," indicates that Jesus is not just a guide but the essential, exclusive means by which we access the Father.

Μεσίτης (Mesitēs) - Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." The Greek word Μεσίτης means “mediator,” someone who intervenes to restore peace and relationship. Jesus’ role as Μεσίτης highlights that he is the one standing between humanity and God, making reconciliation and relationship with God possible.

Προσαγωγήν ἔχομεν δι' αὐτοῦ (Prosagōgēn echomen di’ autou) - "We have access through him" (Ephesians 2:18).

Here, προσαγωγήν (prosagōgēn) means “access” or “approach.” This verse tells us that through Jesus, both Jews and Gentiles have direct access to the Father by the Spirit. It’s a reminder that Jesus’ role isn’t just about salvation but also about ongoing access to a relationship with God.

ἐν Χριστῷ (en Christō) - "in Christ" (numerous times, e.g., Romans 8:1).

The phrase ἐν Χριστῷ (in Christ) appears repeatedly in Paul’s letters, expressing that our salvation, identity, and new life are found in union with Christ. This union means that we approach God and live a life connected to him through Jesus and his work.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

δι' ἐμοῦ (di’ emou) - "through me" (John 14:6).

Right after saying he is “the way,” Jesus adds, "No one comes to the Father except through me." The Greek preposition δι’ (di’), meaning "through," indicates that Jesus is not just a guide but the essential, exclusive means by which we access the Father.

I understand that, but what does this mean for the repented Unitarian sinner who stole the 1000 rands?
Please think how a person who stole 1000 rands from you “uses” Jesus (so to speak)as a means to access the Father and be forgiven.

How do we go through Jesus when we sincerely pray the Lord’s Prayer ?
How did the tax collector go through Jesus when he got justified? Did he go to the Father through Jesus, while the Pharisee did not?
What did the Roman soldiers do in order to get the intercession of Jesus on the cross?

 

[Johann]

I understand that,

I don't think you understand this brother, can you explain?

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't think you understand this brother, can you explain?

J.

At that time, coming to the Father through ( δι’ ) Jesus meant listening to Him and obeying Him as if the Father Himself would be speaking to us.
In this time, when we cannot see and hear Jesus anymore, it means paying hid to His words and example.
If you have a different understanding, please share it with us, Johann.

And please, if possible, let us know how your understanding of the meaning of "through Jesus" addresses the issue of the Unitarian who repents from having stolen 1000 rands from you.

Let me start by sharing how my understanding of "through Jesus" applies to this situation.
The Unitarian learns that Jesus asked us to make peace with our brother before asking God for forgiveness. The Unitarian learns that Jesus upheld the comandments of the Law, such as "You shall not steal", that stealing means not loving our neighbor and Jesus considered loving our neighbors as a supreme comandment. So, the Unitarian asks God for forgiveness and ask you for forgivness, and pays you back the 1000 rands or else does something to repair that.

That's the way how the Unitarian came to God through Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Anyone who does not worship Jesus as God is practicing evil.

Please tell me an example of how you worship Jesus as God in your daily life.
If you prefer not to share things about your daily life, please share with us an example of any other person you know.

 

[Johann]

At that time, coming to the Father through ( δι’ ) Jesus meant listening to Him and obeying Him as if the Father Himself would be speaking to us.
In this time, when we cannot see and hear Jesus anymore, it means paying hid to His words and example.
If you have a different understanding, please share it with us, Johann.

And please, if possible, let us know how your understanding of the meaning of "through Jesus" addresses the issue of the Unitarian who repents from having stolen 1000 rands from you.

Let me start by sharing how my understanding of "through Jesus" applies to this situation.
The Unitarian learns that Jesus asked us to make peace with our brother before asking God for forgiveness. The Unitarian learns that Jesus upheld the comandments of the Law, such as "You shall not steal", that stealing means not loving our neighbor and Jesus considered loving our neighbors as a supreme comandment. So, the Unitarian asks God for forgiveness and ask you for forgivness, and pays you back the 1000 rands or else does something to repair that.

That's the way how the Unitarian came to God through Jesus.

What is the gospel @Pancho Frijoles?
FORGIVENESS UNDER THE LAW
At this point, it may be beneficial to contrast forgiveness under the law of Moses.

“If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land” (II Chron. 7:14).

What an oft quoted verse used by sincere preachers wishing to see our country restored to moral and spiritual greatness! Indeed there is wise counsel here for believers of all ages. Spirit-led humility, prayer, seeking God’s face and turning from sin should produce a tremendous revival in the Church today.

But take a closer look at the verse. “My people which are called by My name” refers to Israel under the law—not the Church under grace. The land to be healed is not America but Palestine. Now note the conditional nature of this forgiveness. “If My people shall…then will I forgive.” This “if-then” syndrome so characteristic of the covenant of the law brings us all the way back to Exodus 19:5. “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.”

This system of conditional blessing is stated repeatedly throughout the Old Testament books of Exodus-Malachi. If Israel obeyed God’s covenant (the law), God would bless them. If they disobeyed, God would curse them (Deut. 28). This is not how God deals with believers today. We have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3,7). This includes the forgiveness of sins.

In relation to the II Chronicles 7:14 passage, we must recognize the difference between interpretation and application. Since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, there are truths in this verse which can speak to us today, but only as we apply them in light of the revelation of the mystery given to us through the Apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25; Col. 1:25-27). The verse as it stands with its conditional blessings belongs by interpretation to Israel under the law.

While some have come to acknowledge the difference between the Mosaic and Pauline systems of blessing (including forgiveness), fewer have seen that conditional forgiveness is carried into the non-Pauline writings of the New Testament.1 Consider the following:

“And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:12,14,15).

“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses” (Matt. 18:34,35).

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses” (Mark 11:25,26).

“Forgive and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37c).

“If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, `I repent;’ thou shalt forgive him” (Luke 17:3,4).

Note carefully that forgiveness in the above examples is extended by the heavenly Father only when forgiveness is first extended to others. Likewise the other is forgiven only if he repents. The order is: (1) Offense committed (2) Confrontation and rebuke (3) Repentance of offender (4) Forgiveness extended by victim (5) God’s forgiveness extended. This teaching shows forgiveness in relation to the millennial phase of the kingdom of God on earth according to Prophecy (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; Rev. 5:10).

In contrast, Paul’s writings reveal that the believer in Christ today is working from a position of perpetual forgiveness from which he is free to forgive others.

“Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you” (Eph. 4:32).

“Forgiving one another…even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye” (Col. 3:13).

This teaching shows forgiveness in relation to the heavenly phase of the kingdom of God according to the Mystery (Rom. 16:25; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:4; II Tim. 4:18). As Scofield has so aptly stated, “Under law forgiveness is conditioned upon a like spirit in us; under grace we are forgiven for Christ’s sake, and exhorted to forgive because we have been forgiven.”

What a difference between law and grace—between conditional and unconditional forgiveness! Both systems are consistent with God’s character and work according to His plan for the ages. But how we should rejoice in being saved members of the Body of Christ during this present dispensation of the grace of God! It shows that while God Himself never changes, His dealings with man do change through the course of history and prophecy.

Some may still object that the forgiveness teachings of Jesus while on earth represent doctrine which was later written to us as members of the present day Church. They further argue that we also should make our forgiveness conditional. This they do because of traditional assumptions and a fear that grace will be abused.

First of all, we agree that “whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning” (Rom. 15:4). All of Scripture is equally inspired of God but is profitable only as it is rightly divided (II Tim. 2:15; 3:16). Secondly, let us understand that Jesus’ earthly ministry was only to the Jews according to prophecy (Matt. 10:5,6; 15:21-28; Mark 7:24-30; Rom. 15:8). Thirdly, our Lord’s life and teaching did not nullify the covenant of the law given through Moses on Mt. Sinai (Matt. 5:17,18; 8:1-4; 23:1-3; Luke 2:21-24; Gal. 4:4). Jesus lived and worked as a Jew under the law as He was circumcised the eighth day, observed the Jewish feast days, told a healed leper to show himself to the priest and offer the gift (animal sacrifice) that Moses commanded, and charged His disciples to observe and do all which those who sat in Moses’ seat bade them (i.e. the scribes and Pharisees who had this authority and were strict adherents for the letter of the law).

While Jesus’ kingdom teaching did take the law deeper to include the motives of the heart (Matt. 5:22,28,32,34), and certain adjustments were made to accommodate the coming kingdom (Matt. 5:44; 13:52), His teaching was one of confirmation (Rom. 15:8). Any new revelations given by Jesus at this time were only added details confirming the prophesied, millennial phase of the kingdom of God as outlined in the Old Testament. Finally, let us acknowledge that the Apostle Paul is the theologian for the present dispensation of the grace of God. In his writings alone do we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church, the Body of Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ conducted a heavenly ministry through Paul, his mouthpiece (I Cor. 14:37; II Cor. 13:3; Gal. 1:11,12; 2:2,9; Eph. 3:1-9). We are the recipients of that ministry today through his epistles. May we never lose sight of where we stand in the program of God. This is crucial for our study of forgiveness as we have shown.

Being properly adjusted to grace teaching is absolutely essential for a joyous and victorious life of faith. How can we love and praise God for something we are not sure He has given us? Likewise, how can we have joy and peace when we fear God may withdraw His gifts? Let us not let unscriptural or undispensational teaching separate us from the enjoyment of sins forgiven and fellowship with the One “in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith [faithfulness] of Him” (Eph. 3:12).

November 2001 Archives

An Organization for the Promotion of Bible Study

bereanbiblesociety.org

IF you are interested @Pancho Frijoles-a site I would recommend.

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

What do you mean by "through Jesus", my brother?

I mean what Scripture says, that there is only one way to righteousness in God, and that is to come to the Father through Jesus. You must be clothed with Jesus through baptism (Gal 3:26-27). If you are not "in Christ", then you are still lost, condemned, stained with sin and cut off from God.

Remember that, in my example, the person who stole from you 1000 rands is a Unitarian neighbor, who does not believe in the deity of Jesus, but believes in the gospel of Jesus.

It is impossible to believe in Jesus yet not believe in His deity. If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then you don't really believe in Him (John 8:24). "I AM" is a phrase that God used when speaking to Moses, and Jesus uses it saying that He is also God. And He says that if you don't believe that "I AM", you will die in your sins.

According to Jesus, his parameters are those of humility, and the mercy we show to others.
That's crystal clear in Jesus teachings
I beg you to refer to

• the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector, in which Jesus illustrated how God justifies a person
• the story of the king who forgave the debt of his subject, in which Jesus ilustrated how God extends his mercy to a person
• the story of the prodigal son, in which Jesus ilustrated what The Father welcomes back his sons.
• the mercy to others as requisite to obtain mercy (Mathew 5:7; Mat 6:12, 18:35

All of that is good, but these are things that the person who is already in Christ will do. These are not the instructions He gave saying that doing these things leads to/results in receiving salvation. Those instructions are found in Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Mark 16:16, among others.

Then God has a way to forgive people, which does not involve knowing things about Jesus.
Otherwise,

• God would have sent prophet Nathan, and all prophets of Israel, with an explicit message for people to believe in the deity, blood atonement and resurrection of a future Messiah.
• God would have prophets and then the apostles to all countries at once, or raised apostles with the same message in every single country

The fact that God did not bother to send this message to all his children for thousands of years, speaks loudly that God does NOT need the sinner to hold those doctrines in order to be forgiven.

Before Jesus' death, the requirement for salvation was simply faith in God. Jesus was not yet known, so faith in Him was not yet even possible. This was under the Old Covenant.

But for us today we are under the New Covenant, and we have evidence of His deity, and of His humanity. We have eyewitness testimony, corroborated many times over by other eyewitnesses, of His actions, His life, death, and resurrection, His sinless nature, and His deity.

Please tell me an example of how you worship Jesus as God in your daily life.
If you prefer not to share things about your daily life, please share with us an example of any other person you know.

Because I believe in Jesus and have been baptized into His death through which I was resurrected in Him, I am now adopted as His child and am an heir to eternity in Heaven. Because of this, I pray daily, hourly, to Him, giving Him all my cares and worries, and receiving from Him His comfort, provision, and other blessings. I don't fear death, because death holds no power over me. If I die I go to paradise and comfort in Heaven with Jesus forever. If I live, I get to work to bring more people into this joyous relationship with Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi Johann

Thank you very much for this comprehensive comment, which I find it very important to understand God's forgiveness. Your post is very long, but I will try my best to be specific on the sections I fully agree with and those in which, although I may agree in principle, I have some further comments to make.

What is the gospel @Pancho Frijoles?
FORGIVENESS UNDER THE LAW
At this point, it may be beneficial to contrast forgiveness under the law of Moses.

“If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land” (II Chron. 7:14).

What an oft quoted verse used by sincere preachers wishing to see our country restored to moral and spiritual greatness! Indeed there is wise counsel here for believers of all ages. Spirit-led humility, prayer, seeking God’s face and turning from sin should produce a tremendous revival in the Church today.

But take a closer look at the verse. “My people which are called by My name” refers to Israel under the law—not the Church under grace. The land to be healed is not America but Palestine. Now note the conditional nature of this forgiveness. “If My people shall…then will I forgive.” This “if-then” syndrome so characteristic of the covenant of the law brings us all the way back to Exodus 19:5. “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.”

This system of conditional blessing is stated repeatedly throughout the Old Testament books of Exodus-Malachi. If Israel obeyed God’s covenant (the law), God would bless them. If they disobeyed, God would curse them (Deut. 28). This is not how God deals with believers today. We have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3,7). This includes the forgiveness of sins.

Every time we sin, God expects from us the same process of repentance.
The fact that Christ died on the cross, and intercedes before God for you, does not mean that you can skip or bypass the process of repentance every time you sin.

I mean, you must feel really sorry, confess your fault, go to the person you hurted, go through a reconciliation process with that person, which entails repairing the damage as much as possible, and taking steps for avoiding doing the same thing again.
Certainly, you will do these things not in despair, but trusting God's mercy shown to you through Christ.

So, the life of a believer is not the life of somebody in perpetual guilt of despair, but in joy and trust.
To be in Christ leads to being a joyful life, despite our limitations and frequent faults.

Note carefully that forgiveness in the above examples is extended by the heavenly Father only when forgiveness is first extended to others. Likewise the other is forgiven only if he repents. The order is: (1) Offense committed (2) Confrontation and rebuke (3) Repentance of offender (4) Forgiveness extended by victim (5) God’s forgiveness extended. This teaching shows forgiveness in relation to the millennial phase of the kingdom of God on earth according to Prophecy (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; Rev. 5:10).

I fully agree, my brother.

In contrast, Paul’s writings reveal that the believer in Christ today is working from a position of perpetual forgiveness from which he is free to forgive others.

“Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you” (Eph. 4:32).

“Forgiving one another…even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye” (Col. 3:13).

From God's perspective, his willingness to forgive is perpetual.
From our perspective, though, everytime we sin, we should repent. That's a natural part of living the life of Christ.
When a person who lives in Christ happens to do something bad (and I am sure you keep making bad things from time to time) he feels nausea (so to speak), and looks for a way to repair that evil and to take steps for not doing it again. In contrast, a person who does not live in Christ is indifferent or even rejoices in doing evil.

So, it doesn't matter if you are a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Calvinist, or a born-again Evangelical: if you were the one who stole the 1000 rands from your neighbor, you must feel sorry, confess, reconciliate with your brother, repair, commit to not doing it again. The difference from the unbeliever is that you will do it in hope and faith, not in despair... but you still need to go through it.

This teaching shows forgiveness in relation to the heavenly phase of the kingdom of God according to the Mystery (Rom. 16:25; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:4; II Tim. 4:18). As Scofield has so aptly stated, “Under law forgiveness is conditioned upon a like spirit in us; under grace we are forgiven for Christ’s sake, and exhorted to forgive because we have been forgiven.”

What a difference between law and grace—between conditional and unconditional forgiveness!

The only unconditional forgiveness taught in the Scriptures is that offered to people who acted in ignorance.
For example, Jesus asked his Father to forgive the Roman soldiers who casted lots over his garments at the cross. Do you remember what was the rationale Jesus used to ask for this forgiveness? Yes, they didn't know better.
Paul used the same reasoning when preaching to the pagan people from Athens in the Areopagus. God does not take into account their superstitions (worshiping idols made of wood, stone or metal) because they did it in ignorance.

That's the unconditional forgiveness.
For all other sins we commit deliberately, God expects from us to repent, regardless of our creed or theological views.
Jesus called people to repent. His disciples called people to repent.
There is no single verse in the Bible where Jesus or his disciples let people know that repentance is optional when they sin.