Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Alter2Ego]

DavidTree:

Simply because three different entities are mentioned in the same sentence does not = they are the same god. That's like telling all those reading this thread that when DavidTree and DavidTree's biological father and a possession of DavidTree's biological father are mentioned in the same sentence, it = One single human being.

Hebrew word for God is 'Elohim' which is PLURAL and has nothing to do with Strong's as he was not born until roughly 5,000 years AFTER Moses wrote Genesis by the HOLY SPIRIT.

Can you understand this???

DavidTree:

Elohim in Hebrew refers to plural gods as well as to a singular god. If the accompanying verb is singular, then Elohim is with reference to a singular god, and the latter happens to be the case with the Abrahamic God, Jehovah.

"First, whenever Elohim is used in the Bible to refer to the Creator of everything (Genesis 1:1), the plural noun generally uses a singular verb. In this case, Elohim is translated as God rather than gods. When elohim refers to anything else one might think of as “god-ish”, it’s translated as gods and uses a plural verb (1 Samuel 28:13)."

The Grammar of Elohim - Biblical Missiology

I am the king of grammar at my house. I can smell a run-on sentence at fifty paces. I undangle dangling participles with the greatest of ease. The colon, semicolon, and demonstrative pronouns are my best friends. And we are certainly humble. Yes, I wrote, “we are certainly humble.” Obviously a...

biblicalmissiology.org

"Elohim is actually a plural noun (indicated by the /im/ as in cherubim and seraphim). Sometimes the referent is plural. At other times the referent is singular. Like most words in English, Elohim can mean several things. Sometimes Elohim refers to plural "gods," as in "You shall have no other gods before me" (Deuteronomy 5:7). At other times it refers to the singular "God," as in "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). It is clear in this latter example that even though the form of the word Elohim is plural, the referent is singular, because the verb with which Elohim is used ("created") is singular in Hebrew.

Ask a Scholar: What Does YHWH Elohim Mean? by Mark D. Futato | NAS

www.nas.org

"Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is plural, yet paired with singular verbs when referring to the Creator: bara (“created”), singular in form, communicates one supreme authority (Wenham, 1987). Hebrew allows plurals of majesty, intensity, or fullness, not just numerical plurality. This is why Moses can write, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1) without implying polytheism."

https://medium.com/@jeffreybarlatier/elohim-plural-in-form-singular-in-being-2f70fcd0b597

So, to summarize, David Tree, the accompanying verb is the deciding factor. And as the sources above indicated, all three of whom cited Genesis 1:1, when Elohim is with reference to the Abrahamic God, it is accompanied by a singular verb.

 

[Alter2Ego]

DavidTree:

Simply because three different entities are mentioned in the same sentence does not = they are the same god. That's like telling all those reading this thread that when DavidTree and DavidTree's biological father and a possession of DavidTree's biological father are mentioned in the same sentence, it = One single human being.

ALL THREE Entities are Echad (Hebrew word for two or more that are counted/considered One/United)
Ecahd Elohim = One God = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Genesis 1:1-3 = John 1:1

So what's your point, DavidTree?

Placing all three entities in the same sentence does not mean they are the same god. I gave you the example of you, your biological father, and a possession of your biological father being mentioned in the same sentence.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You start off with an incorrect premise. There are MANY Scriptures that state explicitly that Jesus is God.
Question: In Genesis 1, who created everything that was Created?

Doug Brents:

You are stating your opinion. I stated a fact when I said there are no scriptures in the Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-one god (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in which the three "persons" are supposedly co-equal and co-eternal.

That is your opinion that shows evidence of lack of study of Scripture.
Matt 28:19 - When something is done, it is done in the name of the highest authority possible. When the Apostles (and through them, every Christ follower in history) were commanded to baptize people into Christ, they were commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three names are equal, or they would not be listed together.

Phil 2:7 - It states that Jesus was already equal with the Father before He emptied Himself and submitted Himself to the Father by becoming a man

John 1:1-3, 14 - This passage is very clear that Jesus is the Logos of God, which was God and was with God (meaning they were separate but equal). God is the only being depicted in Scripture as having the power to make things out of nothing. And Jesus (the Logos of God) did ALL the creating of everything that was made.

Again, your opinion which is contrary to what Scripture says. John 1:3 states clearly that everything that was created was created by the Logos (Word, Jesus), and there was nothing that was created was that was not created by Him. As you say, He cannot have created Himself, so He CANNOT be a created being.

God is not a name. It is a title, similar to the title given to two people who are married: Couple. God is not a singular being, although He is united so closely that it makes no difference to mankind. All three parts of God have the same power, authority, goal, mission, thought, glory, etc. Yet Jesus, the Logos, gave up the independent use of His power, His glory, His authority, and became a man subject to the Father (and other men) to the point of death.

Doug Brents,

You are hardly in a position to tell anyone that they are lacking in study of scripture, based on your four cherry-picked verses, none of which say anything resembling "three persons combined into a single god and all three are co-equal and co-eternal."

If you had bothered to pay attention to context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), you would have realized that the four verses you presented above: Matthew 28:19; Philippians 2:7; John 1:1-3, 14; and John 1:3 actually debunk Christendom's Trinity when context is paid attention to.

Now, suppose you quote each of those scriptures verbatim and bold and colorize the portions where you believe they are saying Trinity.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:

1. There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-1 god, in which there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that are co-equal and co-eternal.

2. Neither Jesus Christ nor his disciples of the 1st century AD promoted the teaching that there are three persons within a godhead, all of whom are co-equal and co-eternal.

3. Trinity did not become official Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life, and some 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.

It would surprise some that there were trinity gods throughout the pagan world--for centuries before the idea of a 3-in-1 god was adopted by Christendom. Below are four such examples:

A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?


2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?


3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

So Alter2ego, do you worship Jesus or do you not worship Jesus?

Jehovah's Witness historical worship of Jesus until 1954​

Jehovah's Witnesses worshipped Jesus until 1954, after which they were told such worship was idolatrous. This made them a polytheistic religion for most of their history.

dwight92070:

The light got brighter, thank's to Jehovah's holy spirit, and the brothers made the corrections. Compare that to members of Christendom's 41,000+ denominations that refuse to change their various false teachings even after they are shown scriptures contradicting their false claims. Just read through this thread and you will find many such ones.

Now, let me say this: If you want to discuss past errors by Jehovah's Witnesses, post your own thread and don't try to derail mine.

Let me be clear. If you post anything else to me that is not about Christendom's Trinity God, I will banish you to my Ignore List where you can join the other five trolls.

 

[mikesw]

dwight92070:

The light got brighter, thank's to Jehovah's holy spirit, and the brothers made the corrections. Compare that to members of Christendom's 41,000+ denominations that refuse to change their false teaching even after they are shown scriptures contradicting their false claims. Just read through this thread and you will find many such ones.

Now, let me say this: If you want to discuss past errors by Jehovah's Witnesses, post your own thread and don't try to derail mine.

Let me be clear. If you post anything else to me that is not about Christendom's Trinity God, I will banish you to my Ignore List where you can join the other five trolls.

haha. the troll is calling Christians trolls. alter2ego wants to alter the gospel unhindered. The Jehovah Witnesses' spirit is behind this. We still are awaiting the JW witness to provide a sufficient argument to deny the testimony of the deity of Christ in the Godhead. Yet, alter2ego speaks of it as a done deal. It seems odd to let that failed testimony to go on while blocking Christians from exposing the issues.

 

[DavidTree]

DavidTree:

Elohim in Hebrew refers to plural gods as well as to a singular god. If the accompanying verb is singular, then Elohim is with reference to a singular god, and the latter happens to be the case with the Abrahamic God, Jehovah.

"First, whenever Elohim is used in the Bible to refer to the Creator of everything (Genesis 1:1), the plural noun generally uses a singular verb. In this case, Elohim is translated as God rather than gods. When elohim refers to anything else one might think of as “god-ish”, it’s translated as gods and uses a plural verb (1 Samuel 28:13)."

The Grammar of Elohim - Biblical Missiology

I am the king of grammar at my house. I can smell a run-on sentence at fifty paces. I undangle dangling participles with the greatest of ease. The colon, semicolon, and demonstrative pronouns are my best friends. And we are certainly humble. Yes, I wrote, “we are certainly humble.” Obviously a...

biblicalmissiology.org

"Elohim is actually a plural noun (indicated by the /im/ as in cherubim and seraphim). Sometimes the referent is plural. At other times the referent is singular. Like most words in English, Elohim can mean several things. Sometimes Elohim refers to plural "gods," as in "You shall have no other gods before me" (Deuteronomy 5:7). At other times it refers to the singular "God," as in "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). It is clear in this latter example that even though the form of the word Elohim is plural, the referent is singular, because the verb with which Elohim is used ("created") is singular in Hebrew.

Ask a Scholar: What Does YHWH Elohim Mean? by Mark D. Futato | NAS

www.nas.org

"Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is plural, yet paired with singular verbs when referring to the Creator: bara (“created”), singular in form, communicates one supreme authority (Wenham, 1987). Hebrew allows plurals of majesty, intensity, or fullness, not just numerical plurality. This is why Moses can write, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1) without implying polytheism."

https://medium.com/@jeffreybarlatier/elohim-plural-in-form-singular-in-being-2f70fcd0b597

So, to summarize, David Tree, the accompanying verb is the deciding factor. And as the sources above indicated, all three of whom cited Genesis 1:1, when Elohim is with reference to the Abrahamic God, it is accompanied by a singular verb.

My Father my Mother and Myself are the SAME GENETIC FAMILY

The verb used singular because ELOHIM/PLURAL are the SAME FAMILY and UNEQUALED

SEE
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him.
And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug Brents,

You are hardly in a position to tell anyone that they are lacking in study of scripture, based on your four cherry-picked verses, none of which say anything resembling "three persons combined into a single god and all three are co-equal and co-eternal."

If you had bothered to pay attention to context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), you would have realized that the four verses you presented above: Matthew 28:19; Philippians 2:7; John 1:1-3, 14; and John 1:3 actually debunk Christendom's Trinity when context is paid attention to.

Now, suppose you quote each of those scriptures verbatim and bold and colorize the portions where you believe they are saying Trinity.

Matt 28:18-20
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.'"

Phil 2:5-7
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men."

John 1:1-14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

1 John 1:5
"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all."
Notice that God is Light, and The Word (Jesus) is "the Light", and the life.

Gen 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
God made the heavens and the earth. And Jesus (the Word) made everything that has been made, and nothing that has been made was not made by Him.

John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
There is no other person in all of history who existed before he was born. But Jesus was there before Abraham was born.

Given these passages, it is abundantly clear that Jesus is God. But I invite you to give a shot at disproving His deity. No one has yet disproven it, but maybe you can be the first.

 

[dwight92070]

haha. the troll is calling Christians trolls. alter2ego wants to alter the gospel unhindered. The Jehovah Witnesses' spirit is behind this. We still are awaiting the JW witness to provide a sufficient argument to deny the testimony of the deity of Christ in the Godhead. Yet, alter2ego speaks of it as a done deal. It seems odd to let that failed testimony to go on while blocking Christians from exposing the issues.

To AlterEgo: So the Jehovah's Witness' Holy Spirit wasn't bright enough before 1954 to show you NOT to worship Jesus. Please show us in the Scripture where the light of the Holy Spirit gets brighter and dimmer. You are correct in speaking of the JW's Holy Spirit, because that certainly is NOT the Bible's Holy Spirit. You know, Alter2Ego, you can ignore me all you want, but that won't stop me from pointing out your false teaching which you have adopted as your own from the deceiving Watchtower Society. Apparently the JW'S Holy Spirit changed His mind in 1954? In fact the JW's Holy Spirit has changed his mind several times:

To understand the changes in doctrine among Jehovah's Witnesses, consider the following points:

1. Early Teachings: Initially, they believed in a literal 1914 end of the world.
2. Blood Transfusions: Changed stance on medical procedures involving blood over the years.
3. Generation Teaching: Adjusted the interpretation of "this generation" regarding the end times.
4. Disfellowshipping: Evolved policies on how and when to disfellowship members.
5. Understanding of the Trinity: Consistently maintained a non-Trinitarian view, but clarified their stance over time.
6. Prophetic Dates: Revised predictions about the timing of significant events, such as the return of Christ.

You should become a willing servant of Jesus Christ instead of a deceived slave to the evil Watchtower Society, which puts itself in the place of God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Doug Brents,

You are hardly in a position to tell anyone that they are lacking in study of scripture, based on your four cherry-picked verses, none of which say anything resembling "three persons combined into a single god and all three are co-equal and co-eternal."

If you had bothered to pay attention to context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), you would have realized that the four verses you presented above: Matthew 28:19; Philippians 2:7; John 1:1-3, 14; and John 1:3 actually debunk Christendom's Trinity when context is paid attention to.

Now, suppose you quote each of those scriptures verbatim and bold and colorize the portions where you believe they are saying Trinity.

Matt 28:18-20
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.'"

Doug Brents:

Three entities being mentioned in the same sentence does not = they are the same god. That's like say that if (1) Doug Brents, (2) Doug Brents' biological father, and (3) something owned by Doug Brents' biological = all three are the same human being. DavidTree came up with that same nonsense earlier. Take a look at Post 382.


Not only that, you ignored the context to Matthew 28:18-20. The context debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus and Jehovah are co-equal and co-eternal and are combined into a single god. Notice part of the context below, then answer the question that follows the scriptural quotation.

Matthew 28:18​

"Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."


QUESTION #1 TO Doug Brents: According to Matthew 28:18, Jesus got authority from Jehovah the Father. TRUE or FALSE?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Phil 2:5-7
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men."

Doug Brents:

All of the spirit creatures aka angels exist in the form of God. You do realize that; don't you?

Phil 2:5-7
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men."

The portion that you bolded "equality with God something to be grasped" is there in scripture, true. But you conveniently ignored the portion where it says "Christ Jesus. . . did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." You just demonstrated a prime example of lying for Trinity.

 

[Alter2Ego]

John 1:1-14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Doug Brents:

You shot yourself in the foot the instant you began quoting from the book of John. Look at the first independent clause at John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word...."


That word beginning applies only to the person called "the Word" aka Jesus Christ. It's telling the reader that Jesus Christ/the Word had a beginning. In other words, Jesus Christ was a created being.



I will deal with remainder of your scriptures from Post 387 at another time, after you respond to what I've stated with regard to your first three set of scriptures.


FYI: I only deal with three scriptures at a time from anyone.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug Brents:

Three entities being mentioned in the same sentence does not = they are the same god. That's like say that if (1) Doug Brents, (2) Doug Brents' biological father, and (3) something owned by Doug Brents' biological = all three are the same human being. DavidTree came up with that same nonsense earlier. Take a look at Post 382.

The phrasing of the verse indicates several things.
First off, it indicates that there are three beings.
Second, it indicates that the three are equal. God is jealous (Exo 20:5), and He does not share His status or authority with those who are not God.

Not only that, you ignored the context to Matthew 28:18-20. The context debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus and Jehovah are co-equal and co-eternal and are combined into a single god. Notice part of the context below, then answer the question that follows the scriptural quotation.

Matthew 28:18​

"Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."

QUESTION #1 TO Doug Brents: According to Matthew 28:18, Jesus got authority from Jehovah the Father. TRUE or FALSE?

That does not contradict the fact that Jesus is God. To the man, Jesus, in the flesh, yes, the authority was given (back) to Him. But He had that authority already before He emptied Himself of it when He left Heaven and submitted Himself to the Father by taking on the form of a servant (Phil 2:7). Jesus had all authority in heaven and on Earth because He was the one responsible for creating everything that was created (John 1:3).

Would you care to try promoting your fallacy in some other way?

 

[Alter2Ego]

DavidTree:

Elohim in Hebrew refers to plural gods as well as to a singular god. If the accompanying verb is singular, then Elohim is with reference to a singular god, and the latter happens to be the case with the Abrahamic God, Jehovah.

"First, whenever Elohim is used in the Bible to refer to the Creator of everything (Genesis 1:1), the plural noun generally uses a singular verb. In this case, Elohim is translated as God rather than gods. When elohim refers to anything else one might think of as “god-ish”, it’s translated as gods and uses a plural verb (1 Samuel 28:13)."

The Grammar of Elohim - Biblical Missiology

I am the king of grammar at my house. I can smell a run-on sentence at fifty paces. I undangle dangling participles with the greatest of ease. The colon, semicolon, and demonstrative pronouns are my best friends. And we are certainly humble. Yes, I wrote, “we are certainly humble.” Obviously a...

biblicalmissiology.org

"Elohim is actually a plural noun (indicated by the /im/ as in cherubim and seraphim). Sometimes the referent is plural. At other times the referent is singular. Like most words in English, Elohim can mean several things. Sometimes Elohim refers to plural "gods," as in "You shall have no other gods before me" (Deuteronomy 5:7). At other times it refers to the singular "God," as in "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). It is clear in this latter example that even though the form of the word Elohim is plural, the referent is singular, because the verb with which Elohim is used ("created") is singular in Hebrew.

Ask a Scholar: What Does YHWH Elohim Mean? by Mark D. Futato | NAS

www.nas.org

"Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is plural, yet paired with singular verbs when referring to the Creator: bara (“created”), singular in form, communicates one supreme authority (Wenham, 1987). Hebrew allows plurals of majesty, intensity, or fullness, not just numerical plurality. This is why Moses can write, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1) without implying polytheism."

https://medium.com/@jeffreybarlatier/elohim-plural-in-form-singular-in-being-2f70fcd0b597

So, to summarize, David Tree, the accompanying verb is the deciding factor. And as the sources above indicated, all three of whom cited Genesis 1:1, when Elohim is with reference to the Abrahamic God, it is accompanied by a singular verb.

My Father my Mother and Myself are the SAME GENETIC FAMILY

The verb used singular because ELOHIM/PLURAL are the SAME FAMILY and UNEQUALED

SEE
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him.
And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”

DavidTree:

You've already been told that three entities in the same sentence does not = they are the same god. Likewise, three entities appearing in the same paragraph does not = they are the same god. That's like telling me that (1) DavidTree, (2) DavidTree's biological father, and (3) something owned by DavidTree's biological father = they are the same human being simply because all three were mentioned in the same paragraph.


Try again. You failed.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Doug Brents:
. . .

Matthew 28:18​

"Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."


QUESTION #1 TO Doug Brents: According to Matthew 28:18, Jesus got authority from Jehovah the Father. TRUE or FALSE?

The phrasing of the verse indicates several things.
First off, it indicates that there are three beings.
Second, it indicates that the three are equal. God is jealous (Exo 20:5), and He does not share His status or authority with those who are not God.

That does not contradict the fact that Jesus is God. To the man, Jesus, in the flesh, yes, the authority was given (back) to Him. But He had that authority already before He emptied Himself of it when He left Heaven and submitted Himself to the Father by taking on the form of a servant (Phil 2:7). Jesus had all authority in heaven and on Earth because He was the one responsible for creating everything that was created (John 1:3).

Would you care to try promoting your fallacy in some other way?

Doug Brents:

I quoted Matthew 28:18 (the context to your cherry-picked verses at Matthew 28:19-20) and asked you a direct question. Until you answer my question, this conversation is over.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug Brents:

You shot yourself in the foot the instant you began quoting from the book of John. Look at the first independent clause at John 1:1:
"In the beginning was the Word...."
That word beginning applies only to the person called "the Word" aka Jesus Christ. It's telling the reader that Jesus Christ/the Word had a beginning. In other words, Jesus Christ was a created being.

ROTFLMBO - Do you have that much difficulty reading and understanding the English language? Or the Greek for that matter? The verse literally says that when the "beginning" happened the Word was already there. And it makes clear that He cannot be a created being in verse 3 where it says that He created everything, and nothing was created that was not created by Him. It says it twice, once in a positive and once in a negative so that there can be ABSOLUTELY NO MISUNDERSTANDING. Jesus could not have created Himself, and since He is responsible for everything that is, He is NOT a created being.

FYI: I only deal with three scriptures at a time from anyone.

It must be rough to only be able to handle that small amount of Truth at a time. Sometimes it takes referencing more than just a few verses to see all of what God wants you to see. But keep feeding on the milk, and one day your tolerance for the full meat of the Word will come.

 

[mikesw]

Doug Brents:

I quoted Matthew 28:18 (the context to your cherry-picked verses at Matthew 28:19-20) and asked you a direct question. Until you answer my question, this conversation is over.

Alter2Ego wants to dominate with questions that try to deny who Jesus is shown to be in John 1. Then Alter2Ego ignore people after pointing out the failings of arguments by Alter2Ego. These are control aspects and possibly characteristic of JW practices. No open discussions when the deceit is exposed.

Jesus indeed can be given authority by his equals within the Godhead. Jesus preexists as God and now is resurrected and becomes the full representation to humanity when sharing these final words found in Matthew 28. Only a person rejecting the testimony of Jesus would use this against him.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug Brents:

I quoted Matthew 28:18 (the context to your cherry-picked verses

If referencing two verses (Matt 28:19-20) is cherry-picking, then what would you call referencing only one verse?

at Matthew 28:19-20) and asked you a direct question. Until you answer my question, this conversation is over.

And I answered your question. But I will post it again for the slowest in the class:

That does not contradict the fact that Jesus is God. To the man, Jesus, in the flesh, yes, the authority was given (back) to Him. But He had that authority already before He emptied Himself of it when He left Heaven and submitted Himself to the Father by taking on the form of a servant (Phil 2:7). Jesus had all authority in heaven and on Earth because He was the one responsible for creating everything that was created (John 1:3).

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don't care what you believe, atpollard. Scripture at Colossians 1:15 says the Jesus created. Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures, we are told that Jesus was begotten. Below is just one example.


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
(John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

John 1 KJV

Not only does John 1:18 say no man has seen God at anytime--indicating Jesus could not possibly be in a Trinity with God since everybody within Jesus' view could see him--but John 1:18 says Jesus was begotten.



"begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

And that's the least of your problems. According to you and other Trinitarians, Almighty God Jehovah is a liar when he himself declares that he alone is Creator.

**“Begotten” does not mean created, and it does not mean sexual birth.
It means coming forth from the Father’s own being as His Son, sharing His nature.

Just as a word comes from a mind and shares its nature, the Son comes from God and shares God’s nature.
So Jesus is from God, of God, and truly God — yet not the Father Himself.”**

Actually Begotten = coming from God’s own divine life, not created and not biological.

What you seem to be thinking is “coming from the Father = not God”

But what Scripture actually means is ,“coming from the Father = same God-nature, distinct person.”

Those are very , very different things.

Your argument breaks apart when you assume if Jesus comes from the Father, He must be less than the Father.

But that only works if Jesus were created.

Begetting is not creating.

A created thing comes from outside and has a different nature.

A begotten son comes from the parent and has the same nature.

Therefore, Origin does not mean inferiority -- it means relationship.

Once you understand this you will quickly see Why begetting actually fits Trinity, not denies it

The Trinity requires three things. These are paramount to understanding ....................................

1.One divine nature
2.More than one divine person
3. Real relationship between them

“Begotten of the Father” gives all three:

1. One nature — God begets God
2. Two persons — Father and Son
3. Real relationship — Father → Son


If Jesus were the Father, He could not be begotten of the Father And If Jesus were a creature, He would not be begotten from God.

If begetting disproves the Trinity, then it also disproves Sonship, because you cannot be a son unless you come from a father.

However..... Scripture calls Jesus ...... “The only begotten Son.”

The very Holy Words in the Bible itself teaches from the Father — yet truly God
Jesus comes from the Father (John 16:28) and is called God (John 1:1; Heb 1:8). Therefore He is from God yet truly God.

Which is exactly what Trinity means.

The easiest way for you to remember this is “Being begotten does not make Jesus less than God — it means He is from God and shares God’s nature. Creation produces something different; begetting produces someone of the same kind. So ‘begotten of the Father’ actually supports the Father–Son distinction while preserving full deity.”

PAY ATTENTION...

If begetting produces someone of the same kind, then: God begets God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Doug Brents:

You shot yourself in the foot the instant you began quoting from the book of John. Look at the first independent clause at John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word...."


That word beginning applies only to the person called "the Word" aka Jesus Christ. It's telling the reader that Jesus Christ/the Word had a beginning. In other words, Jesus Christ was a created being.

ROTFLMBO - Do you have that much difficulty reading and understanding the English language? Or the Greek for that matter? The verse literally says that when the "beginning" happened the Word was already there. And it makes clear that He cannot be a created being in verse 3 where it says that He created everything, and nothing was created that was not created by Him. It says it twice, once in a positive and once in a negative so that there can be ABSOLUTELY NO MISUNDERSTANDING. Jesus could not have created Himself, and since He is responsible for everything that is, He is NOT a created being.

Doug Brents:

That's false. "Literally says," my foot. No where at John 1:1 does it "literally" say, to quote you "the Word was already there." It simply says "In the beginning was the Word...."

 

[Alter2Ego]

ROTFLMBO - Do you have that much difficulty reading and understanding the English language? Or the Greek for that matter? The verse literally says that when the "beginning" happened the Word was already there. And it makes clear that He cannot be a created being in verse 3 where it says that He created everything, and nothing was created that was not created by Him. It says it twice, once in a positive and once in a negative so that there can be ABSOLUTELY NO MISUNDERSTANDING. Jesus could not have created Himself, and since He is responsible for everything that is, He is NOT a created being.

Doug Brents:

False, again. John 1:3 says nothing resembling "He cannot be a created being," because that verse of scripture makes it clear that Jehovah God was the power behind the creating and that Jehovah simply worked through Jesus. John 1:3 says the following, and I will quote from three Trinitarian Bible translations that got it right:


"God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him." (John 1:3 -- New Living Translation)

John 1 NLT

"And with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. Everything that was created" (John 1:3 -- Contemporary English Version)

John 1 CEV

"Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him." (John 1:3 -- Good News Translation)

John 1 GNT