praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Abel was innocent. A victim of circumstances. In fact, he was murdered because he was righteous.
Christ paid our sin debt
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Dizerner
Active member
He had the righteousness which comes by faith, he believed while ungodly.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, (Rom. 4:5 NKJ)
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I know what you believe. Christ died for all sinners which both redeems and condemns. You're actually spoiling the Grace of God by limiting it to only your few.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
While I can somewhat agree, your comments are a distraction from the contradiction you've created. You insist that Abel was unrighteous. You need to deal with this. This is common fallacy involving the teaching of Total Depravity. While I believe in current condemnation it did not come completely from Adam himself. It came from Adam's future descendents.
I mentioned this previously to you a few days ago. Didn't Eve sin first? Why then is she not justly attributed with the condemnation of humanity.
Whether you see this or not, your position is extremely flawed. Maybe we can get somewhere in this.
Dizerner
Active member
Yes, it's the beauty of grace, the unrighteous sinner clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
"Simultaneously sinner and justified" as Martin Luther so eloquently put it.
This is the most beautiful contradiction and paradox of all—that God would bear our shame and gift us an alien righteousness not our own obtained by our merits and law-keeping, but by a simple act of trust from an unworthy sinner who should never see the light of day.
Abel is unrighteousness in himself and his own actions.
Abel is righteous in Christ as gift of undeserved grace.
Both at the same time!
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me!
The love of God, how rich and pure! How measureless and strong!
A sinner—imagine with me, just imagine—a hell-bound, greatest of all sinners—clothed with the very righteousness of Christ.
Angels long to look into these things.
DavidTree
Well-known member
ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God = Total Depravity = none righteous no not one
Christ died for all to have an opportunity to enter Gods kingdom--FEW will. Those are=Matt 7:21--Those living now over self to do Jesus' Fathers will in this satan ruled system. Few know that will because blind guides lead the majority of religions claiming to be Christian. Jesus is with ONE religion, not hundreds.( 1 Cor 1:10)
Yet all the righteous died including the apostles and paid their own wages of sin.
Dizerner
Active member
But have you trusted Christ to suffer for your sins?
That's a yes or no question.
I hope one day you do, because there is no salvation in our self-righteousness.
civic
Well-known member
Absent from the body present with the Lord
DavidTree
Well-known member
Never went down as you suggest.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Jesus has no religion.
There are many false teachings promoted by this world's religious system through the "many" differing religious businesses and sects that make it up.
One insidious falsehood that is promoted through what is called "Christianity", is the teaching that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, through His Doctrine, correction and instruction in Righteousness, was never able to bring even one man, "No Not One" into righteousness.
They demean God in this way by twisting Paul and David's Words to promote this lie.
But when Paul and David's words are actually examined, this lie is exposed for what it is, a false teaching. Please consider what Paul actually said first.
Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that "unto them" were committed the oracles of God. 3 For "what if some did not believe"? shall "their unbelief" make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: (That mean NO!) yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
So Paul is speaking about Jews who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: (That means NO!) for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (Who is Judging Paul as a Sinner, is it not those who have the Oracles of God, but don't believe them?) 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? "whose damnation is just".
Did Paul teach others to do Evil, that good may come? Of course not. These men, who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, were slandering Paul and the Body of Christ, and as HE said, "their damnation is just".
Paul continues:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have "before proved" both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Can Paul unrighteously slander men and teach lies about them and be blameless? Of course not, he is no better than them. If HE behaves in the same manner as them, he will be guilty, just as they are guilty, and his damnation, like theirs, will also be Just.
He has already declared "before" that men who live in this manner are "Still under Sin". Answer me a question, "Is the Body of Christ Still under Sin"? Where did Paul "Before Prove" that "they", those who slander without a cause, are still under sin.
Rom. 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon "every" soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to "every man" that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Paul goes on to Quote David to further drive his point home.
Psalms 14: 1 The "fool" hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the "workers of iniquity" no knowledge? "who eat up my people" as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Who are God's People? Are these not Paul and the Church of God who was being falsely slandered?
5 There were they (God's People) in great fear: for God "is in the generation of the righteous." 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
And to further drive home Paul's point, he quotes David again.
Psalms 5: 4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all "workers of iniquity". 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. 7 But as for me, (Like Paul) I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.
8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. 9 For there "is no faithfulness" in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. 10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. 11 But let all those that put their trust "in thee" rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless "the righteous"; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.
So Dizerner, Please consider that both you and I have been lied to, by this world's religious system, about Paul's words here since our youth. And Paul was not describing those men whose refuge is the Lord, he was not speaking to the Generation of the Righteous, he was speaking to those "workers of iniquity" who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them.
It's right there in front of you, in your own Bible "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
You don't want to be adopting or promoting a religious sect or business of this world who promotes such an evil and wicked lie about God, that HE was not able to bring even "ONE" sinner into Righteousness, No not one. It's an insidious lie being promoted by this world's religious system to demean a God they hate, as Paul teaches.
Please "come out of her" that you partake not of her sins.
brightfame52
Well-known member
If you don't preach a limited but saving atonement you preach a false gospel
Dizerner
Active member
Paul was speaking of all the human race, of everyone.
He said that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD be held guilty to God, not just "those dirty sinners over there."
Please forsake your self-righteous pride and trust in your works, it will send you to hell, it is not worth it.
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: (Lk. 18:9 NKJ)
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Phil. 3:9 NKJ)
Please forsake your enormous pride that is sending you to hell, as much as we are in love with our own pride and glory, it just is not worth it.
Please trust in Christ alone to suffer for your sins and take the hell you deserved.
Please—hell is not worth anything.
Of course i trust in Jesus. He died for repented sins not practiced or willfull sins that continue.
99% on Earth are fooled like this-2Cor 11:12-15 to partake off of the table of demons.1Cor 10:21
There is no ghost like spirit being within one. The dead are in the grave waiting on the resurrection.
Are you calling God a liar? --The wages of sin is death. All have died that aren't alive anymore. Even Jesus died. But he has been resurrected.
He started one. God always had 1 religion after the exodus. The Israelites were the only religion on Earth that had God( OT)--They rejected Jesus thus they are cut off( Matt 23:38)--A new religion began.
civic
Well-known member
No that’s what your church teaches as we see in revelation the saints who are awaiting the resurrection who are alive in heaven with God.
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