He may not be meaning what you had thought
God is love within His Triune Being not wrath or vengeance.
Christ paid our sin debt
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God is love within His Triune Being not wrath or vengeance.
e v e
Well-known member
Perhaps it was a playout (as foreshadowing) of the restoring of something lost at the fall
-- since Abraham is doing a playout....
or a rare instance where it refers to the fallen-man type nations thus a different general context, or a mistranslation. Generally the context is demon nations. One would have to go look at all this to see what is meant there.
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civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Figured so
civic
Well-known member
I explain my position here in depth with the Tri-Unity od God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
e v e
Well-known member
per egyptian hieroglyphs adam became 'father' of the demon nations... after the fall. perhaps abraham was playing this out... to undo by countering that. (foreshadowing) what will happen when the cities above eden are destroyed, as the 'end' of those nations and the end of adam.
was that ez. 30 (as foreshadowing) where the eden trees are crying below and God destroys the evil city oppressing them ... (in the other reality) ?
edit. ez.31:16
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civic
Well-known member
Here is the condensed, shortened version.
The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity.
All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.
God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4:19 tells us.
We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.
God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.
Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.
Let’s examine how this works in conjunction with Gods sovereignty and His love. God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect with God have been revealed plainly to us by God in His word. He has done this both through his word and his works. And God has sworn never to change for He is Immutable.
God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. The love of God has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign is found nowhere in the pages of scripture.
The fact that God can do something is not a justification for Him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that He can do is restricted by the standard that God values most which is His love. If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because He is sovereign. If God does it just because He is sovereign then He would not be God but something else.
What makes God, God is so intricately bound to his intent for doing things that if He were to do a thing just by virtue of the fact that He is sovereign and can do it rather than by virtue of the fact that it is loving? He would not be God as we know Him but something else. If sovereignty is what defines what makes up love in such a way that God doing anything is what defines love, then love has no meaning and can be anything and everything it is and opposes any time, which is ridiculous.
This below is from the Calvinist Theologian Abraham Kuyper on God is love:
“Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.
Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.
The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.
Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.
In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. “From his book on the Work of the Holy Spirit Volume 3, Second Chapter Love- xviii Love in the Triune Being of God “
God can do anything and everything is what sovereignty means by definition. God will only do what is loving and what is righteousness. Righteousness is the foundation of his throne. In other words, righteousness is the constraint of his sovereign rule. Love is how God rules His creation. Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Mercy and all the other attributes of God fall under the umbrella of His love. God being love is foundational to Gods nature, character, the gospel and the entire purpose for Christs 1st Coming. John 3:16. God rules by His love. The question we need to be asking ourselves is this, how does our Sovereign God display His love in conjunction with His rule over mankind?
hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Well-known member
Oh it helps - for sure AND some Beautiful wisdom in most, if not all (just not all of it)
i love you and will respond tomorrow, in His Love
fear not my Brother in Christ, for my response will be much shorter
SHALOM
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those for whom Christ died, by taking care of their sin debt, they are rewarded/credited with eternal life , as a Gift Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If Jesus paid for our sins we wouldn't die--The wages sin pays is death. Even the righteous die.
Acts 3:19--REPENT and turn around to get sins blotted out)--yet all pay the wages even if they repent, because all sin daily.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Physical death is not the full or real price tab, it was spiritual death in the lake of fire, the wrath of God against all ungodliness.
The reason we still physically die even when we put our trust in Christ is because we pass through Christ's death with him in our union.
We still have to acknowledge the representation that sin did have a price and pass through it with Christ.
There is no life in death. Thus physical death makes one 100% dead until the resurrection. That occurs after the great tribulation and Armageddon. The lake of fire is the second death= eternal destruction.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Have you trusted in Christ to suffer for your sins?
civic
Well-known member
Jesus and the Apostles taught there is no life without death. Jesus death was the vehicle for His Resurrection which gave power over sin, death and the grave.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
This peaked my interest. I'd like to hear more..... on this. I'm not sure I understand your comments properly.
Right now, I would have to disagree.
Saved people still die because the judgement of sin upon the descendants of Adam extends beyond personal/individual sin. This is the very reason that Paul dealt with how mankind still died even for those innocent of any charges of sin.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The flesh we (our age) have is different than what Adam had. We are of a lesser sort through the judgement of God relative to the cumulative sin of our ancestors.
In other words, sin has had its affect upon our species to the point that our species are withering away in our very flesh. We marvel today about "modern science" and pretend we are the greatest generation that has every lived on this earth......
Such is nothing more than egotistical nonsense. Sure, we adapt. We learn to help ourselves through our calamities....... which results in us getting further and further away from God. We often are doing nothing more than prolonging our suffering.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Seems he enjoys teaching "soul sleep"....
The second death is going from "the frying pan into the fire."
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Christ died for sinners. As always seems essential to your false gospel...... you don't understand the GOODNESS OF GOD in dying for HIS ENEMIES.....
God does GOOD..... regardless of the result. This is an essential aspect of His very Character. Only a sinful egotistical man could devise such a damnable doctrine as "limited atonement".
It is the very fact that Jesus Christ died for all men that established the very judgement of God upon sinners.
Dizerner
Well-known member
There is no one righteous, no not one. No such thing as an innocent human.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@praise_yeshua
He did, but they were Gods elect chosen in Christ before the foundation. So He didnt die for every sinner, that needs to be made clear in the Gospel, to magnify His Grace
He did, but they were Gods elect chosen in Christ before the foundation. So He didnt die for every sinner, that needs to be made clear in the Gospel, to magnify His Grace
Dizerner
Well-known member
Excellent post, btw.
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