One has to note you do not have a single verse which actually states what you believe
Therefore your belief is extra biblical as is much of your theology.
Christ paid our sin debt
- Thread starter civic
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Therefore your belief is extra biblical as is much of your theology.
One is not saved until they call out to the Lord in faith....this is indisputable.
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Rom 10:9-13)
It is very simple. Wages are something a person receives for doing something.
The wages for mowing grass is $10. Chet mowed grass and gets paid $10, for the wages of mowing grass is $10.
brightfame sins and gets paid death for the wages of sin is death.
Our Lord Jesus Christ did not pay the wages for our sin. He received the wage for our sins.
So you can stop saying He paid the wages for our sin, for He was not the one paying out death but receiving death.
But what our Lord did pay is a ransom price with His own blood to release us from death and the grave (Hosea 13:14) to purchase us for God (Acts 20:28). This is why He is referred to as our Redeemer; the one who pays the price of redemption/ransom for our freedom.
God Bless
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civic
Well-known member
Yep
brightfame52
Well-known member
if one says something that may not be literally stated in scripture, and yet it still finds agreement with scripture, its the same. Like the word Trinity isn't found in scripture, yet it agrees with scripture. You reject a simple vital Gospel truth, Jesus was charged/accounted with the sin debt of His Sheep, its called imputation. The word impute/ logizomai means :
To reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
- to take into account, to make an account of
- metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute
So He had a debt He had to pay, Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
behoved opheilō Him means :
- to owe
- to owe money, be in debt for
- that which is due, the debt
- to owe money, be in debt for
Still no verse? How long will you go on assuming your theology?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I have found at least these passages that teach in unequivocal terms that forgiveness does not need payment
- Psalm 51
- God forgiving the Ninevites
- The Parable of the King that forgave his subject's debt
- The Parable of the Prodigal Son
- The Parable of the Pharisee and Tax payer
- The Lord's Prayer
- Jesus forgiving the sin of the paralytic and the woman who Annointed his feet
- Peter in Pentecost answering the question "What should we do?"
brightfame52
Well-known member
It's all in your imagination
civic
Well-known member
Yes many times in scripture God forgives without any payment and Jesus forgave many sinners in the NT without payment
civic
Well-known member
you are projecting and a legalist- judaizer.
Jesus forgave many people without the cross because as God He can forgive sin. And the religious Pharisees hated Him for the very act of forgiveness of sins apart from their laws, fulrs, regulations etc….. they like many here scream and shout for justice to be served and must be served, demanding God cannot just forgive anyone apart from their rules, laws.
In the Old Testament, even before the sacrificial system for the forgiveness of sin was established (Leviticus 4:20, 26, 28, 31; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22), God was distinguished as a God who forgives sin (Exodus 32:32; 34:6–9). By nature, God is forgiving (Nehemiah 9:17; Daniel 9:9), but He is also just. He does not let sin go unpunished (Exodus 34:7).
The Bible clearly illustrates that repentance is necessary for God to forgive sin. Repentance was required in the Old Testament, just as it is in the New Testament. Several scriptural examples show God withholding His forgiveness from those who did not truly repent (Deuteronomy 29:20; Numbers 15:30–36; 1 Samuel 15:27–35; Isaiah 2:9; Hosea 1:6). However, when people repented of their sins and returned to the Lord, God extended forgiveness (Hosea 14:2; Isaiah 33:24; Jeremiah 33:8; Psalm 65:3; Psalm 78:38). The psalmist declared, “Finally, I confessed all my sins to you and stopped trying to hide my guilt. I said to myself, ‘I will confess my rebellion to the Lord.’ And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone” (Psalm 32:5, NLT).
God offers eternal forgiveness of sins to repentant believers based on the once-for-allatoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross (Hebrews 10:11–12; cf. Leviticus 16:1–34; 17:11). Christ shed His blood to confirm “the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many” (Matthew 26:28, NLT). The death of Jesus paid the entire sacrificial price to lift up and carry away the past sins of Old Testament believers and the future sins of New Testament believers (Psalm 130:8; Matthew 20:28; Ephesians 1:7).
Genesis 15:6 says, “Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith” (Genesis 15:6, NLT). Abraham was made righteous before God by faith (see also Romans 4:3–8). Believers in ancient times looked forward by faith to Messiah’s coming, just as believers today look backward by faith to His coming. The sins of all people who repent and put their faith in the Messiah, God’s Son and Savior of the world, are no longer held against them because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.
The sacrificial system of the Old Covenant was never effective in forgiving or taking away sin (see Hebrews 10:1–10). It did show the seriousness of sin and the need for a substitute to carry away sin (Leviticus 16:7–10, 20–22, 26; Isaiah 53:4). Most importantly, it pointed forward to the day when Jesus Christ would pour out His blood on the cross to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
No sacrifice or ritual is required of humans to cover sin. The only truly indispensable sacrifice is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:13–14). He laid down His life once and for all people, from Adam and Eve to the final family at the end of days. “So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven. . . . With his own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever” (Hebrews 9:11–12, NLT).Got ?
hope this helps !!!
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civic
Well-known member
Gods love covers sins and forgives.
One of the most popular of the biblical proverbs is Proverbs 10:12, “Hatred stirs up conflict, / but love covers over all wrongs.” Some translations read, “Love covers all offenses” or “all transgressions.” What does is mean that love covers all wrongs?
This proverb is an example of antithetical parallelism in Hebrew poetry. A close look at the contrast involved helps provide a better understanding. “Hatred” is contrasted with “love.” The “stirring up” is contrasted with a “covering over.” And “conflict” is what hatred is promoting, whereas love seeks to make peace by covering “all wrongs.” To provide an expanded paraphrase: “Hatred looks for a fight and refuses to smooth things over, but love desires peace between warring parties and will not be involved in provoking dissension.”
Love covers all wrongs, but the wicked find motivation from hatred or spite toward others. In contrast, the righteous are motivated by love. Hatred seeks ways to cause trouble, but love looks for ways to forgive.
This same proverb is quoted in 1 Peter 4:8, “Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” In this context, the proverb emphasizes that love is expressed through forgiveness of sins.
The idea of love being associated with forgiveness is found frequently in Scripture. One important example is found in 1 John 4:10, “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” See also John 3:16 and 1 John 3:16. The work of Christ on the cross—the work of our forgiveness—was an act of divine love.
In our own personal relationships, we also show love in our forgiveness of others. One of love’s characteristics is that “it keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:5). Love has no list of how or how often it has been offended. Love forgives.
A related idea from Proverbs 10:12 is the concept of “covering” sins. This concept is communicated elsewhere in the Old Testament to describe God’s forgiveness of sins. For example, Psalm 85:2 reads, “You forgave the iniquity of your people / and covered all their sins.” In the New Testament, Romans 4:7 speaks of the blessedness of knowing God’s love and forgiveness: “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.”
James 5:19–20 says, “My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” Again, the idea of “covering” many sins communicates the fact of a person’s sins being forgiven.
Our lives are to be characterized by godly love that forgives the sins of others. Our extending of forgiveness is motivated by the truth that God has forgiven our sin through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:32). How many times should we forgive? Up to seven times? That was Peter’s question in Matthew 18:21. Jesus’ answer: “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times” (Matthew 18:22). Where sin increases, grace increases all the more (Romans 5:20). Love covers a multitude of sins—and it keeps on covering.got?
hope this helps !!!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I beg you to give me the opportunity to walk with me through these passages.
Don’t be afraid. What we will find there is a glimpse of the amazing depth of God’s love.
I am a sinner who depends entirely of God’s sovereign power and irresistible grace, just like you.
If at the end of pur journey through those passages you remain believing what you want to believe, I will thank you all the same for your time and courage.
Let me know what you think.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Jesus I serve paid the death penalty of the wages of sin, His Sheep owed Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
civic
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Of course, they were forgiven from the foundation of the world, due to the fact He was the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain[for sins] from the foundation of the world.
All the elect before the cross were forgiven, justified from sin premised on the Cross Work Christ would perform for them in time.
civic
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Of course, they were forgiven from the foundation of the world, due to the fact He was the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain[for sins] from the foundation of the world.
All the elect before the cross were forgiven, justified from sin premised on the Cross Work Christ would perform for them in time.
civic
Well-known member
adding to scripture is a big no no and eisegesis.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Of course, they were forgiven from the foundation of the world, due to the fact He was the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain[for sins] from the foundation of the world.
All the elect before the cross were forgiven, justified from sin premised on the Cross Work Christ would perform for them in time.
