Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[TedT]

What we have to concentrate on here is BIBLICAL evidence that a baby, infant, child could sin.

I find this evidence in Gen 25 where Jacob and Esau are trying to crush each other to pieces to become the first born... This is a murderous intent and sinful in anyone else so why not in them?

Then there is the another question for another time: how did they know that their birth order would make one a chief and the other a servant?

 

[MTMattie]

Agreed.

My point is that their sin cannot have come from Adam as that is contrary to the love and righteousness of GOD who not only can't create sinners but who does not judge anyone for another's sin:
Jer 31:30 Berean Standard Bible Instead, each will die for his own iniquity.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. Adam is our father so we don't die for his sin.

BUT Exodus 34:7 says that God “[visits] the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

The only other (righteous) way a person can be born a sinner by their free will is if they sinned as a spirit in the heavenly world before their conception into mankind.

Nope. Not the last thought here.

The Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of souls because this is a man-made idea with no basis in truth. The Bible makes it clear that every human being is a unique creation of God (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5). Each unique human soul begins at conception (Psalm 139:13–16; Isaiah 44:24) and will continue forever because we are created as eternal beings (Genesis 9:6; Isaiah 40:28; Matthew 25:46).

The concept of pre-existence cannot be followed to its logical conclusion. Pre-existence means one of three things: (1) the soul has always existed, (2) the soul was created at a previous time and waited, incorporeal, until it could inhabit a body on earth, or (3) the soul inhabited another body in the past and transmigrated to its current body.

Gen 2 :7 tells us “The Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” The words “man became” indicate a definite beginning in which Adam’s soul and body came to life at the same time

 

[TedT]

I don't know what you mean by your last sentence...

It sums up my conviction that
1. Sin can only accrue to someone by their real free will decision to rebuke or disobey GOD.
2. That GOD as LIGHT cannot create sinners, who are dark not light, by any means at all, but especially not by using a surrogate sinner such as Adam.
3. But the death of infants proves their sinfulness since death is created by sin, (James 1:5 Berean Standard Bible Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.)
and death is the wages for sin, not just a consequence of life, Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18:4.

4. So, the only way infants can be sinners and die at every stage in their life in the womb is if they had time of free will before their conception in which they chose by a free will to be sinful in GOD's sight.

Our conception cannot have been our creation...

 

[TedT]

BUT Exodus 34:7 says that God “[visits] the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

Since the bible is not self contradictory, the interpretation of this iniquity must refer to their inheriting sinfulness is wrong and must refer to the suffering of the family the father's sin brings to them.

The false interpretation arises from the erroneous belief that our our conception is our creation espoused first by the Rabbis and accepted by the Church Fathers.

 

[TedT]

Pre-existence means one of three things: (1) the soul has always existed, (2) the soul was created at a previous time and waited, incorporeal, until it could inhabit a body on earth, or (3) the soul inhabited another body in the past and transmigrated to its current body.

No such thing as pre-existing one's existence so the proper terminology would be pre-earth existence or pre-conception existence...

In the PCE theology I was taught, the soul was created and did not always exist. And yes, we were spirits in the heavenly realm with GOD before the fall. Remember, ANGEL is a job description as a servant or messenger from GOD, NOT a name for a species or type or race of beings...

After the fall all sinners, both elect sinners and the eternally reprobate sinners who were condemned already, Jn 3:18, were flung into the earth, Rev 12:4-9. The reprobate were here to be bad examples (Matt 13:27-30) and to wait for the judgement, and the elect sinners were here to be redeemed and trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, so as to be heaven ready and thereby to hurry up, hasten, speed up the coming of that terrible Day of the LORD, 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

Have you come across any verse that not only makes our pre-earth existence to be impossible but which even hints that is is not possible?? I've been looking a long time and have found no takers yet.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since the bible is not self contradictory, the interpretation of this iniquity must refer to their inheriting sinfulness is wrong and must refer to the suffering of the family the father's sin brings to them.

The false interpretation arises from the erroneous belief that our our conception is our creation espoused first by the Rabbis and accepted by the Church Fathers.

Your interpretation is correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

It sums up my conviction that
1. Sin can only accrue to someone by their real free will decision to rebuke or disobey GOD.
2. That GOD as LIGHT cannot create sinners, who are dark not light, by any means at all, but especially not by using a surrogate sinner such as Adam.
3. But the death of infants proves their sinfulness since death is created by sin, (James 1:5 Berean Standard Bible Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.)
and death is the wages for sin, not just a consequence of life, Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18:4.

4. So, the only way infants can be sinners and die at every stage in their life in the womb is if they had time of free will before their conception in which they chose by a free will to be sinful in GOD's sight.

Our conception cannot have been our creation...

Wait. I'm not understanding you, maybe.

Item no. 1. sin can only accrue to someone by their real free will decision to rebuke or disobey God.

Item no. 3. the death of infants proves their sinfulness.

Isn't the above contradictory?

Number 1 is correct.
In order for an act to be a sin it must be:
willfull
a free-will decision

IOW, a person must understand what they're doing and what the consequences are.
A baby, infant, child cannot know this.

God will hold responsible only the sin that each person commits.

What sin has a new-born baby committed?

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die.
HOW could a baby sin?
Again...what are the prerequisites for sin?


Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Does a child understand about salvation in Christ?


Romans 14:12
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Can a child that dies give an account of himself to God?


Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,
Does a child know what it means to repent?
Do they understand baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[GodsGrace]

I find this evidence in Gen 25 where Jacob and Esau are trying to crush each other to pieces to become the first born... This is a murderous intent and sinful in anyone else so why not in them?

Then there is the another question for another time: how did they know that their birth order would make one a chief and the other a servant?

Esau and Jacob tried to crush each other?

Genesis 25:21-26
21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is so, why then am I this way?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.
23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."
24 When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25 Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named * him Esau.
26 Afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau's heel, so his name was called Jacob; and Isaac was sixty years old when she gave birth to them.
There is no murderous intent...at least not that I could see.
And the answer to your question about the younger serving the older is underlined above:
God chose Jacob to continue the line from Abraham...
Esau became the nation of the Edomites....
Israel was stronger...the Israelites were stronger than the Edomites.
the Edomites

Esau was also known as Edom, the progenitor of the Edomites who were established to the south of the Israelites. They were an ancient enemy nation of Israel. The minor prophets, such as Obadiah, claim that the Edomites participated in the destruction of Solomon's Temple in the siege of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau#:~:text=Esau was also known as,of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.

 

[MTMattie]

It sums up my conviction that
1. Sin can only accrue to someone by their real free will decision to rebuke or disobey GOD.
2. That GOD as LIGHT cannot create sinners, who are dark not light, by any means at all, but especially not by using a surrogate sinner such as Adam.
3. But the death of infants proves their sinfulness since death is created by sin, (James 1:5 Berean Standard Bible Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.)
and death is the wages for sin, not just a consequence of life, Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18:4.

What? All those aborted babies sinned before birth?

4. So, the only way infants can be sinners and die at every stage in their life in the womb is if they had time of free will before their conception in which they chose by a free will to be sinful in GOD's sight.

Nuts. Just plain nuts.

Our conception cannot have been our creation...

WOW, that is the most confounding explanation I think I have ever read. Maybe confounding is not the right word.............. confusing.
Yes, that is it.

Your point number two you are applying to only human beings? Remember, God created Lucifer and we all know about him.

No such thing as pre-existing one's existence so the proper terminology would be pre-earth existence or pre-conception existence...

In the PCE theology I was taught, the soul was created and did not always exist. And yes, we were spirits in the heavenly realm with GOD before the fall. Remember, ANGEL is a job description as a servant or messenger from GOD, NOT a name for a species or type or race of beings...

After the fall all sinners, both elect sinners and the eternally reprobate sinners who were condemned already, Jn 3:18, were flung into the earth, Rev 12:4-9. The reprobate were here to be bad examples (Matt 13:27-30) and to wait for the judgement, and the elect sinners were here to be redeemed and trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, so as to be heaven ready and thereby to hurry up, hasten, speed up the coming of that terrible Day of the LORD, 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

Have you come across any verse that not only makes our pre-earth existence to be impossible but which even hints that is is not possible?? I've been looking a long time and have found no takers yet.

Are you referring a pre-existence as a substance with a soul and spirit, ore merely a soul?

No, I do not believe any is/was pre-existant except for the (our) spirit .

The Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of souls because this is a man-made idea with no basis in truth. The Bible makes it clear that every human being is a unique creation of God (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5). Each unique human soul begins at conception (Psalm 139:13–16; Isaiah 44:24) and will continue forever because we are created as eternal beings (Genesis 9:6; Isaiah 40:28; Matthew 25:46).

Unless : as we are cautioned in Matt 10:8 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The concept of pre-existence cannot be followed to its logical conclusion. “The Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” The words “man became” indicate a definite beginning in which Adam’s soul and body came to life at the same time.

Jesus is the only baby born into this world who existed before His birth (John 1:1; 17:5; Colossians 1:17).

 

[Red Baker]

I don't know what you mean by your last sentence...
but the rest is right on.

He obviously believed one had life before he was born into this life, sorta like reincarnation???? He clearly said:

The only other (righteous) way a person can be born a sinner by their free will is if they sinned "as a spirit" in the heavenly world before their conception into mankind.

My dear sister, the rest is just as corrupt as the last sentence he made. I have some company here now but I going to address civic #76 post next and expose the brother's even though no doubt spoken in sincerity, but not according to the truth of the word of God~using sound bites are very misleading and the means many end up with a false gospel preaching it to others.

 

[GodsGrace]

He obviously believed one had life before he was born into this life, sorta like reincarnation???? He clearly said:

Agreed.
No previous life.

My dear sister, the rest is just as corrupt as the last sentence he made. I have some company here now but I going to address civic #76 post next and expose the brother's even though no doubt spoken in sincerity, but not according to the truth of the word of God~using sound bites are very misleading and the means many end up with a false gospel preaching it to others.

Could you tag me in?
I just read through post 76 and I believe it's correct.
Enjoy your company!
Good night.

 

[civic]

I find this evidence in Gen 25 where Jacob and Esau are trying to crush each other to pieces to become the first born... This is a murderous intent and sinful in anyone else so why not in them?

Then there is the another question for another time: how did they know that their birth order would make one a chief and the other a servant?

they were adults, not infants and children who have no guilt of sin on them.


Ezekiel 18:4
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die

Ezekiel 18:20
“The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.”

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6
Yet he did not put the sons of the murderers to death, but acted according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers must not be put to death for their children, and children must not be put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Jeremiah 31:30
Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. If anyone eats the sour grapes, his own teeth will be set on edge.

And we have the wisdom of Job below who knew had he died as a child he would be at peace with the Lord as an innocent and not condemned in hell as guilty as some falsely teach/believe. Job knew there was no torment and suffering if he had died as a child.

Job 3:11 “Why did I not die at birth, come out from the womb and expire?…13 For then I would have lain DOWN AND BEEN QUIET; I WOULD HAVE SLEPT; THEN I WOULD HAVE BEEN AT REST.

The Bible is in one accord on the innocence of children and that there is no guilt of sin.


hope this helps !!!

 

[TedT]

IOW, a person must understand what they're doing and what the consequences are.
A baby, infant, child cannot know this.

I remember back in the day how I struggled to keep the pce concept of our existence before earth in my head while I studied...I kept referring to everything from the pov of our conception / birth as our creation, sigh.

In the womb, Jacob and Esau knew the law of primogeniture, the law that said the first born rules the family. They knew that they would be born into a culture that followed this rule and GOD said they were murderously fighting to crush each other to pieces because of this. How could they know these things if the were newly created tabula rasa?

Then we have the story of John the baptiser: Luke 1:39 In those days Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judah, 40 where she entered the home of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

How did John know her voice? Perhaps he had heard it before and perhaps he was waiting for her?? 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord’s word to her will be fulfilled.”

And if we can learn wisdom in the womb, Ps 51:6, then what else can / must we know ? Don't sell babies short just because the ordinary theology of our being created on earth at conception or birth denies all this...

 

[Dizerner]

All have sinned, there is none righteous.

No, not one.

 

[TedT]

What sin has a new-born baby committed?

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die.
HOW could a baby sin?
Again...what are the prerequisites for sin?

Unless they are old sinful spirits sown, not created, into new in bodies as babies, Matt 13:36-39. They existed before the creation of the physical universe, ie, earth, which Job 38:7 contends ALL the sons of GOD witnessed and sang HIS praises there and then they must have sinned in one of two ways during that time: when they heard the proclamation of GOD and HIS gospel of salvation in the Son as mentioned in Col 1:23, they either rejected this as the lies of false god driven by megalomania OR they accepted this proclamation as true by faith without proof because they hoped for a marriage relationship with their Creator, becoming by this decision HIS elect, the people of HIS kingdom, HIS sheep. But we also know that some of HIS sheep, the people of HIS kingdom, went astray into sin after being elected by HIM to salvation, before the foundation of the world...probably over needing to accept the horror of hell for those of their friends who had scorned HIM by the unforgivable sin, rebuking HIM as a false god and salvation in the Son as a lie.

And if only sinners are born into mankind, then we all come as sinners already by our own free will, liable to die and to suffer for sin, not in innocence.

 

[civic]

Wait. I'm not understanding you, maybe.

Item no. 1. sin can only accrue to someone by their real free will decision to rebuke or disobey God.

Item no. 3. the death of infants proves their sinfulness.

Isn't the above contradictory?

Number 1 is correct.
In order for an act to be a sin it must be:
willfull
a free-will decision

IOW, a person must understand what they're doing and what the consequences are.
A baby, infant, child cannot know this.

God will hold responsible only the sin that each person commits.

What sin has a new-born baby committed?

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die.
HOW could a baby sin?
Again...what are the prerequisites for sin?


Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Does a child understand about salvation in Christ?


Romans 14:12
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Can a child that dies give an account of himself to God?


Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,
Does a child know what it means to repent?
Do they understand baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

they have not committed any sin therefor not guilty of sin and are innocent just like all the scriptures we have posted by Jesus and the OT prophets proclaimed about their innocence.

as we know the doctrines and traditions of men can blind one to the truth.

 

[Dizerner]

There is a misunderstanding about sin here.

Sin is not merely "intellectual."

Sin comes from the heart, the spirit, the smallest amount of intellect can hold wrong attitudes.

Scripture says no one is good and that in our flesh is no good thing.

Thus no one is born loving God purely.

 

[civic]

All have sinned, there is none righteous.

No, not one.

yep not one innocent adult male or female- all are guilty of sin.

notice infants/children are not mentioned in your passage in Romans 3.

 

[TedT]

Esau and Jacob tried to crush each other?

Genesis 25:21-26
21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is so, why then am I this way?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.

struggled:
Strong's Hebrew concordance #7533
Original Word: רָצַץ
ratsats: To crush, to oppress, to break
Meaning: to crack or crush into pieces

No suggestion of struggle, wrestling nor jostling which are eisegetic interpretive words chosen to be able to support the supposed lack of sinfulness in babies...

All forms of this word follows:
to crush, oppress
• (Qal)
• to crush, get crushed, be crushed
• to crush, oppress (fig)
• crushed (participle passive)
• (Niphal) to be crushed, be broken
• (Piel)
• to crush in pieces
• to grievously oppress (fig)
• (Poel) to oppress (fig)
• (Hiphil) to crush
• (Hithpoel) to crush each other

The actual form used in Gen 25:22 is the Hithpoel, to crush each other, ie, it denotes reciprocity.

So, only by ignoring the root meaning of this word can they support the bias for the current favourite created here on earth theory.

 

[TedT]

And the answer to your question about the younger serving the older is underlined above:
God chose Jacob to continue the line from Abraham...
Esau became the nation of the Edomites....
Israel was stronger...the Israelites were stronger than the Edomites.

OF course GOD chose Jacob BUT how could the babies in the womb KNOW about this and the meaning of being first born so they would fight about it ??? which Is what GOD told Rebecca was happening!!!