Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[TedT]

What? All those aborted babies sinned before birth?

All babies sinned before being sown into this world by conception. ONLY sinners are sent here to live either as either bad examples or to be brought to redemption and to be trained in righteousness. IF not, then we must believe in GOD who kills and tortures the innocent...which I refuse to do or to hide from by doublethink.

 

[TedT]

.

 

[TedT]

Are you referring a pre-existence as a substance with a soul and spirit, ore merely a soul?

No, I do not believe any is/was pre-existant except for the (our) spirit .

I tend to think of the spirit as referring to our actual being in the spirit world and the soul as referring to a spirit within a body. They are the same but separated by experience.

 

[GodsGrace]

I remember back in the day how I struggled to keep the pce concept of our existence before earth in my head while I studied...I kept referring to everything from the pov of our conception / birth as our creation, sigh.

In the womb, Jacob and Esau knew the law of primogeniture, the law that said the first born rules the family. They knew that they would be born into a culture that followed this rule and GOD said they were murderously fighting to crush each other to pieces because of this. How could they know these things if the were newly created tabula rasa?

Then we have the story of John the baptiser: Luke 1:39 In those days Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judah, 40 where she entered the home of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

How did John know her voice? Perhaps he had heard it before and perhaps he was waiting for her?? 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord’s word to her will be fulfilled.”

And if we can learn wisdom in the womb, Ps 51:6, then what else can / must we know ? Don't sell babies short just because the ordinary theology of our being created on earth at conception or birth denies all this...

Ted,,,,I'm not sure what you're saying here because I THINK you're speaking about something I've never heard before.
Jesus and John and Mary and Elizabeth is a very particular and special story and I don't believe it should be used to create any doctrine.

Are you saying that persons had a life BEFORE they were born?

 

[GodsGrace]

I tend to think of the spirit as referring to our actual being in the spirit world and the soul as referring to a spirit within a body. They are the same but separated by experience.

Oh goodness Ted.
What does
1 Thessalonians 5:23 mean to you?

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm going to post the following image which explains our BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT.
Also, are you going to reply to my post no. 87 ??

 

[GodsGrace]

Unless they are old sinful spirits sown, not created, into new in bodies as babies, Matt 13:36-39. They existed before the creation of the physical universe, ie, earth, which Job 38:7 contends ALL the sons of GOD witnessed and sang HIS praises there and then they must have sinned in one of two ways during that time: when they heard the proclamation of GOD and HIS gospel of salvation in the Son as mentioned in Col 1:23, they either rejected this as the lies of false god driven by megalomania OR they accepted this proclamation as true by faith without proof because they hoped for a marriage relationship with their Creator, becoming by this decision HIS elect, the people of HIS kingdom, HIS sheep. But we also know that some of HIS sheep, the people of HIS kingdom, went astray into sin after being elected by HIM to salvation, before the foundation of the world...probably over needing to accept the horror of hell for those of their friends who had scorned HIM by the unforgivable sin, rebuking HIM as a false god and salvation in the Son as a lie.

And if only sinners are born into mankind, then we all come as sinners already by our own free will, liable to die and to suffer for sin, not in innocence.

Ted....I can't respond to the above.
Your belief system is not biblical and I've never heard of it before.

Also, no one is elected to salvation in the bible.
God does not choose who will be saved.
God would want that all be saved and leaves the decision up to us.

Joshua 24:14-15
14 "Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE.
TO CHOOSE MEANS TO HAVE FREE WILL.
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

WE PRESENT OURSELVES AS SLAVES.....
WE ARE NOT MADE OR BORN SLAVES....

 

[civic]

All babies sinned before being sown into this world by conception. ONLY sinners are sent here to live either as either bad examples or to be brought to redemption and to be trained in righteousness. IF not, then we must believe in GOD who kills and tortures the innocent...which I refuse to do or to hide from by doublethink.

nowhere in all the bible does it ever say or imply anyone in the womb sinned.

thats absurd.

 

[GodsGrace]

struggled:
Strong's Hebrew concordance #7533
Original Word: רָצַץ
ratsats: To crush, to oppress, to break
Meaning: to crack or crush into pieces

No suggestion of struggle, wrestling nor jostling which are eisegetic interpretive words chosen to be able to support the supposed lack of sinfulness in babies...

All forms of this word follows:
to crush, oppress
• (Qal)
• to crush, get crushed, be crushed
• to crush, oppress (fig)
• crushed (participle passive)
• (Niphal) to be crushed, be broken
• (Piel)
• to crush in pieces
• to grievously oppress (fig)
• (Poel) to oppress (fig)
• (Hiphil) to crush
• (Hithpoel) to crush each other

The actual form used in Gen 25:22 is the Hithpoel, to crush each other, ie, it denotes reciprocity.

So, only by ignoring the root meaning of this word can they support the bias for the current favourite created here on earth theory.

You're going to build a belief system based on a word?
It also can mean TO PUT UNDER PRESSURE.
I like to leave the translating to the translators.
A language cannot be translated word by word....
the context also means a lot.
Do you really believe babies in the womb can actually fight and crush each other as WE understand it?
I really don't think so Ted.

How about all those verses I gave you?
They mean nothing?

Anyway,,,,,I'm not discussing WHEN someone was created....
Doesn't matter.

They're born with no sin on their soul because they don't know what sin is.
If you DON'T KNOW that crossing the street with a red light is illegal....
How can you be responsible for breaking a law?

 

[Dizerner]

nowhere in all the bible does it ever say or imply anyone in the womb sinned.

thats absurd.

Actually both a righteous and sinful act are recorded in the womb.

John the Baptist leaping for joy in the womb in acknowledgement of Mary's voice.

Jacob and Esau fighting in the womb, the Hebrew word means to "mistreat and oppress" each other.

The actual form used in Gen 25:22 is the Hithpoel, to crush each other, ie, it denotes reciprocity.

So, only by ignoring the root meaning of this word can they support the bias for the current favourite created here on earth theory.

Excellent study and accurate, I just noticed you already covered this.

People are born with a sin nature, as Scripture plainly tells us that we have an old man that needs to be crucified with Christ.


This revival of self-righteous theology needs to die in the pits of hell where it came from.

 

[Dizerner]

yep not one innocent adult male or female- all are guilty of sin.

notice infants/children are not mentioned in your passage in Romans 3.

You changed and added to Scripture.

Shame on you.

 

[TedT]

Your point number two you are applying to only human beings? Remember, God created Lucifer and we all know about him.

YES. GOD created the innocent person who came to be called Lucifer AFTER he rebuked YHWH as a liar and a false GOD. Then he was flung to the earth (the Greek apparently implies a certain amount of animosity) by Michael and the heavenly army, Rev 12:4-9.

But Satan also flings to the earth a number of other stars / angels. These angels must be sinners or he would have no power over them, correct? And he does this right before his last battle. Why would he reject these sinners just before he faced Michael and the other angels IF they could have helped him?

This implies there were sinful stars / angels flung into the earth who would NOT fight for Satan against YHWH! It seems to me that the only angels who were fallen but who would not fight against YHWH were fallen but elect angels: 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels.

This is the explanation of how the fallen sinful angels / spirits in GOD's image, came to be sown into this world by the Son of man, Matt 13:36-39...Lucifer not among them though he was condemned already but put here for Matt 13:27-30.

 

[civic]

You changed and added to Scripture.

Shame on you.

projecting since children/infants are not mentioned in Romans 3.

 

[MTMattie]

I tend to think of the spirit as referring to our actual being in the spirit world and the soul as referring to a spirit within a body. They are the same but separated by experience.

You are not a tripartite believer?

 

[TedT]

He obviously believed one had life before he was born into this life, sorta like reincarnation???? He clearly said:

While I do not make any decision about the reincarnation of the wicked (which they all?) seem to espouse, I do contend that their supposed multiple lives do NOT bring them closer to redemption and GOD. They need Christ, not another life!

But what benefit does reincarnation have for a truly legitimate child of GOD? Absolutely nothing - in fact it implies that GOD cannot redeem and teach righteousness to a sinful legitimate son in one life time, Heb 12:5-11...which I cannot accept.

 

[GodsGrace]

OF course GOD chose Jacob BUT how could the babies in the womb KNOW about this and the meaning of being first born so they would fight about it ??? which Is what GOD told Rebecca was happening!!!

Know about what Ted??

The babies were tumbling about inside her.
Rebekah wanted to know what was going on...she had twins in her and probably was in discomfort.

So she went to God to find out what was going on AND GOD TOLD HER:

Here are a couple of questions:

1. WHERE did she go to speak to God?
2. HOW did God reply to her?

 

[Dizerner]

Tumbling about like a washing machine, lol.

Little dudes were fighting. This born angels thing is so ridiculous, like what are people even thinking, it's like the world isn't sinners anymore.

No, I hate to break humanity's delusions of self-grandeur and moral purity, but we are all born sinners.

 

[TedT]

they were adults,

Ummm, Gen 22 But the children inside her struggled with each other, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” [to me now. not to them as adults!!!] So Rebekah went to inquire of the LORD, 23 and He declared to her:
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”
is clearly addressed to Rebecca as the reason for the sinful, fratricidal, fighting going on in her womb. <sigh>

 

[TedT]

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

If you believe children die for the sins of Adam then this verse must be interpreted differently...
or you must believe that GOD brings suffering and death upon the innocent, a hard position to defend in scripture.

 

[civic]

Ummm, Gen 22 But the children inside her struggled with each other, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” [to me now. not to them as adults!!!] So Rebekah went to inquire of the LORD, 23 and He declared to her:
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”
is clearly addressed to Rebecca as the reason for the sinful, fratricidal, fighting going on in her womb. <sigh>

nothing about sin in the womb.

 

[TedT]

The Bible is in one accord on the innocence of children and that there is no guilt of sin.

Then death and suffering are NOT the wages of sin nor does sin create death as James 1:15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. tells us it is; sin...gives birth to death.

To treat the innocent like they were sinners under judgement is contrary to the loving, righteous and just nature of GOD.