Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[John Evens]

The theology of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) says we can blame no one but ourselves and our sinful desires for any and all suffering in our lives...not Adam, not GOD.

The idea that souls existed before human conception originates from a philosophy and reason outside the teaching of the Bible. No mention of the pre-existence of souls can be found in the Bible.

What is found in the Bible is a clear, consistent theology that God creates each person, (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5), including each soul. Psalm 139:13–16 says, "For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My fame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."

Each person was known by God before they were born, when they were in the womb (see also Isaiah 44:24).

This does not mean their souls pre-existed, but rather demonstrates God's intricate involvement in the creation of each human life, His omniscience, and His sovereignty. As important, each person created will exist forever (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:46).

Compelling Truth

 

[civic]

That's pretty funny civic!

But it's actually quite sad.
I believe Dr. J. White believes children are born already with sin.
I remember thinking what would he feel/think if one of his grandchildren passed on? (God forbid).
It's just a horrendous teaching.

And the bible does not support this teaching.

Yes whites another one

Idol killer embarrassed him in a debate on babies and his position.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes whites another one

Idol killer embarrassed him in a debate on babies and his position.

Will try to find it.

 

[atpollard]

Amen but we know some think they are filthy rotten little despicable sinful devils

You are the only one that I heard call call them that.

 

[civic]

Will try to find it.

I’ll try and find a link this evening

 

[civic]

You are the only one that I heard call call them that.

Nope it’s what anyone who believes in TD really means - doomed from the womb

 

[TedT]

Do you think Jesus means that the child needs to humble himself??

No. Jesus means that the child is already humble....

Amen...

they are sinners but they are humble. When they are told they are being bad they do not argue in the face of the truth like the devils of Rom 1:21-the end...but repent and ask forgiveness which describes the essence of those sinners who can be brought to repentance and redemption...

 

[TedT]

No mention of the pre-existence of souls can be found in the Bible.

Only according to your biased and eisegetical opinion.

Job 38:7 refers to ALL the sons of GOD viewing the creation of the physical universe and singing the praises of GOD for this display of HIS divinity and eternal power!!! You must redefine ALL and sons of GOD to mean something else, ie, anything else instead of referring to every human, especially those who are the sons of GOD, the people of the kingdom who are sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39...

PCE theology suggests we consider taking these words from these disparate places in the Bible, both Old and New testaments, at face value.

Jacob and Esau: Gen 25
Then there is GOD's word to Rebecca telling her that the twins in her womb were trying to crush each other to pieces ( the true meaning of the word ratsats* hidden by pretending it means to struggle or wrestle) because they knew of the law of primogeniture and that they would be born into a culture that respected that law...

How could infants form such a murderous desire if they were newly created tabula rasa?

How could they know of the law of primogeniture if they were newly created tabula rasa?

How could they know that the culture they would be born into would follow the law of primogeniture if they were newly created tabula rasa?

* ratsats:
The Hebrew word ratsats (רָצַץ) means "to crush" or "to crack in pieces". It can also mean "to oppress" figuratively.

Different forms of ratsats

• Qal: To crush, get crushed, or be crushed
• Niphal: To be crushed or broken
• Piel: To crush in pieces or to grievously oppress figuratively
• Poel: To oppress figuratively
• Hiphil: To crush
• Hithpoel: To crush each other is the reciprocal form found in verse Gen 25:22 But the children inside her struggled with each other... an obvious bit of eisegesis...sigh.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are the only one that I heard call call them that.

Why is @civic the only one calling babies despicable devils?

Calvinism teaches that we are SO depraved as to be unable to seek after God.
Romans 6:16 tells us that we are slaves to the one to whom we present ourselves.
Since most present themselves to satan....they are the children of satan/wrath.

Ephesians 2:3
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath,

So, If I've properly understood,,,a baby is born either saved or lost.
If they're lost they're the children of wrath and are guilty and are responsible for somehow doing all those sinful acts Paul speaks of in his letters.

If they're all born lost...then why do some Calvinistic theologians have such a difficult time speaking to this?
Dr. James White would be one...he REFUSES to discuss this in debates.

Also, I'd like to understand:
WHEN is a person regenerated according to reformed theology?
As soon as they're born...or at some later point?

I do find the reformed position rather confusing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen...

they are sinners but they are humble. When they are told they are being bad they do not argue in the face of the truth like the devils of Rom 1:21-the end...but repent and ask forgiveness which describes the essence of those sinners who can be brought to repentance and redemption...

No TedT

You didn't understand my post.

CHILDREN ARE NOT SINNERS.

Could you show from scripture that children are sinners?
I can't find anything.

 

[John Evens]

Do young children who die go to hell? No they do not, but the main question is, How do we know these innocents go to heaven?

Let’s ask this question: “What must a person do to be lost?” Answer: They must refuse the free offer of God’s saving grace.
Children too young to know and understand the Gospel cannot willfully reject it.

Little children have no record of unbelief or evil works, and therefore, there is no basis for their deserving an eternity apart
from God. . . . They are graciously and sovereignly saved by God as part of the atoning work of Christ Jesus.

God refers to these little ones as “innocents”

That does not mean children are “sinless.” Instead, they are not yet responsible for their sins in the same way as those whose sins are
willful and premeditated. And God understands the difference.

The character of God lays the foundation for the realization that children who cannot understand the Gospel are enveloped within the grace and mercy of our Lord. On them, God has a tender heart. On them, His compassion reigns.

Infants are shielded by the blood of Him who loves all the little children of the world, and who is not willing for even one of them to perish.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do young children who die go to hell? No they do not, but the main question is, How do we know these innocents go to heaven?

Let’s ask this question: “What must a person do to be lost?” Answer: They must refuse the free offer of God’s saving grace.
Children too young to know and understand the Gospel cannot willfully reject it.

Little children have no record of unbelief or evil works, and therefore, there is no basis for their deserving an eternity apart
from God. . . . They are graciously and sovereignly saved by God as part of the atoning work of Christ Jesus.

God refers to these little ones as “innocents”

That does not mean children are “sinless.” Instead, they are not yet responsible for their sins in the same way as those whose sins are
willful and premeditated. And God understands the difference.

The character of God lays the foundation for the realization that children who cannot understand the Gospel are enveloped within the grace and mercy of our Lord. On them, God has a tender heart. On them, His compassion reigns.

Infants are shielded by the blood of Him who loves all the little children of the world, and who is not willing for even one of them to perish.

Very good.
I would add that the above also is true for the mentally handicapped.
Some can still know God but most cannot now of His existence but we have a merciful God that
is also JUST.
To be JUST means to give to each person as he deserves.
A handicapped person that does not even know of the existence of God cannot rightly be held responsible for this.

Again...some mentally handicapped persons DO KNOW about God and love Him.

 

[civic]

Why is @civic the only one calling babies despicable devils?

Calvinism teaches that we are SO depraved as to be unable to seek after God.
Romans 6:16 tells us that we are slaves to the one to whom we present ourselves.
Since most present themselves to satan....they are the children of satan/wrath.

Ephesians 2:3
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath,

So, If I've properly understood,,,a baby is born either saved or lost.
If they're lost they're the children of wrath and are guilty and are responsible for somehow doing all those sinful acts Paul speaks of in his letters.

If they're all born lost...then why do some Calvinistic theologians have such a difficult time speaking to this?
Dr. James White would be one...he REFUSES to discuss this in debates.

Also, I'd like to understand:
WHEN is a person regenerated according to reformed theology?
As soon as they're born...or at some later point?

I do find the reformed position rather confusing.

I'm not( I was making a point) but you might as well if you believe they are doomed from the womb, born sinners. All sinners are guilty of sin and condemnation.

And we know a person cannot be saved until they hear and believe the gospel. So all infants are either saved or lost. If they are lost in a condition of sin then they are hell bound. If they are not born a sinner then they are saved.

You cannot have it both ways and as an FYI- thats the whole purpose of infant baptism their salvation. Lutherans have a confirmation for teenagers to confirm their salvation as an infant. I know I was born one and went through it myself.

What a crock of boloney. Its doubletalk from the other side of the fence.

 

[Aeliana]

Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6

Young’s Concordance defines the Hebrew word, chanak—train—by “To train, to dedicate, to give instructions to.” It enjoins the duty of dedicating a child to God, and thus so training and instructing him in his ways that he will not depart therefrom.

First, it is used in the sense of drilling soldiers. Second, breaking and training oxen. Third, to train a twig or tree in the form it is desired to grow. All these uses are in harmony with the illustrations by which Christ represents his disciples. They are soldiers in a holy war. They are compared to oxen where he said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.”

And we are compared to trees, vine branches and grafts. To train up a child in the way it should go, is, therefore, to drill, and exercise him in righteousness, as a soldier is trained in military tactics. In the army every order is imperative. Moral suasion is not used in drilling soldiers. And some are even enlisted—drafted—without consulting their wish in the matter. While, it is true, others volunteer of their own free will.

When the great recruiting officer of the Lord Jesus enlisted the jailer at Philippi, he at once also counted his household on the sacred list. Acts 16:31. And when “Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord,” “all his house” were also mustered in by faith. Acts 18:8.

 

[civic]

Do young children who die go to hell? No they do not, but the main question is, How do we know these innocents go to heaven?

Let’s ask this question: “What must a person do to be lost?” Answer: They must refuse the free offer of God’s saving grace.
Children too young to know and understand the Gospel cannot willfully reject it.

Little children have no record of unbelief or evil works, and therefore, there is no basis for their deserving an eternity apart
from God. . . . They are graciously and sovereignly saved by God as part of the atoning work of Christ Jesus.

God refers to these little ones as “innocents”

That does not mean children are “sinless.” Instead, they are not yet responsible for their sins in the same way as those whose sins are
willful and premeditated. And God understands the difference.

The character of God lays the foundation for the realization that children who cannot understand the Gospel are enveloped within the grace and mercy of our Lord. On them, God has a tender heart. On them, His compassion reigns.

Infants are shielded by the blood of Him who loves all the little children of the world, and who is not willing for even one of them to perish.

Well said and I can affirm this post there are some nuances that I might not agree with but thats being nit picking. In the end as you have stated the character of God is on trial. Those who condemn infants are assassinating Gods/Jesus Good name, nature and character.

 

[TedT]

No TedT

You didn't understand my post.

CHILDREN ARE NOT SINNERS.

Could you show from scripture that children are sinners?

I understand you very well but I disagree with you completely. If you can't understand the difference....sigh.

In post #28 I explain how Jacob and Esau were trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb so as to be the first born. Such an intent has to be sinful, abhorrent to GOD so they could not both have been fighting for HIM by faith, one at least (and in my opinion, both of them) was sinning even if the other was fighting in self defence. The fact they could not achieve their murderous desires does not prove they were not being sinful.

ALSO, the scripture teaches that death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life, ie, only sinners die, therefore death proves sinfulness as taught in James 1:15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. ie, life does not cause death, only sin? Since infants of every age are liable to death, they must be sinful and in need of a saviour. In fact, GOD orders the death of infants. Why does HE not respect their supposed innocence??? Undeserved suffering and death for an innocent is NOT loving nor righteous, nor just and my GOD is loving, righteous and just!

 

[TedT]

God refers to these little ones as “innocents”

Where please?

And don't forget, our word innocent has different meanings :
1. the state, quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offense
2. lack of guile or corruption; purity.

iow, a sinful child may in fact be guilty of sin but called innocent to refer to its lack of guile.

 

[TedT]

Infants are shielded by the blood of Him who loves all the little children of the world, and who is not willing for even one of them to perish.

How can you apply this only to children when in the scriptures such things apply to everyone who are all sinners???

 

[TedT]

And we know a person cannot be saved until they hear and believe the gospel. So all infants are either saved or lost. If they are lost in a condition of sin then they are hell bound. If they are not born a sinner then they are saved.

May I...? Rather some, ie HIS prodigal sheep gone astray into sin, are elected to be saved, promised salvation by election, though their redemption will be fulfilled in their faith and in their being trained in righteousness which causes their suffering: Heb 12:5-11.

 

[Bassnah]

I understand you very well but I disagree with you completely. If you can't understand the difference....sigh.

In post #28 I explain how Jacob and Esau were trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb so as to be the first born. Such an intent has to be sinful, abhorrent to GOD so they could not both have been fighting for HIM by faith, one at least (and in my opinion, both of them) was sinning even if the other was fighting in self defence. The fact they could not achieve their murderous desires does not prove they were not being sinful.

ALSO, the scripture teaches that death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life, ie, only sinners die, therefore death proves sinfulness as taught in James 1:15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. ie, life does not cause death, only sin? Since infants of every age are liable to death, they must be sinful and in need of a saviour. In fact, GOD orders the death of infants. Why does HE not respect their supposed innocence??? Undeserved suffering and death for an innocent is NOT loving nor righteous, nor just and my GOD is loving, righteous and just!

The story is a deeply symbolic tale. The Torah chooses to tell the story with specific words. The choice of these words gives us the opportunity to delve into the story and to try and understand the lesson the Torah is attempting to teach.

The story of Jacob and Esau offers profound insights into the human condition. These two brothers represent contrasting aspects of our own psyches, and their interactions offer valuable lessons for spiritual growth and self-awareness. If you explore the spiritual meaning behind the story of Jacob and Esau, it will provide you with a richer understanding of this passage. But it will not help you understand if children are innocent or guilty of any sin.

Esau and Jacob embody different spiritual qualities: Esau represents impulsivity and physicality, while Jacob symbolizes patience, introspection, and spiritual growth, not our final destination.