GodsGrace
Active member
You keep making statements without posting to anyone.
I'm waiting for some scripture.
Got any?
Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
I'm waiting for some scripture.
Got any?
Meaning of course: all of mankind of whatever age.
GodsGrace
Active member
Then how did the newly conceived become sinners so they are liable to death, the suffering of death, when death is the wages for sin, and created by sin??
How do you avoid believing that death doesn't prove sinfulness?
...which seems to put the lie to Ezekiel 18:19-23
It is the one who sins who will die... if all the dead babies of all the generations are sinless. I can't get passed this, even with the doublethink that death is for sin yet babies who die are sinless.
civic
Well-known member
I agree with that statement
Yes, probably it is new to you...and yes, I believe the bible quite strongly supports our being created and having a life in the spirit before our conception on earth but since our pre-conception existence has been discounted for 40000 years, it is hard to get anyone to listen past their preconceived notions.
I do not quote scripture to PROVE my interpretation but to show that the pce interpretation does NOT conflict with scripture and often provides a better interpretation....though that does cause difficulty with ordinary theology.
civic
Well-known member
Yes, I first saw this in the late 60s I believe but I do not accept it now as I tend to think of our spirits as who we were when we were created in the image of
GOD (not our bodies) and soul is the word used to describe our spirits when bound by / in a body.
Never having heard it before is NOT proof it is not biblical.
New revelations are indeed ahead of us which just might contradict the teaching of years by the church elite:
Perhaps they will fulfill
Daniel 12: 9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
and in
Revelations 10:8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the small scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land.” 9 And I went to the angel and said, “Give me the small scroll.”
“Take it and eat it,” he said. “It will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” 10 So I took the small scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it; and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned bitter.
by telling us a new interpretation of an old revelation rather than a new revelation which might contradict Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:18.
In John 16:12, Jesus said: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. Hence, Jesus knew some truth that He was unable to disclose to us, and He also knew that this truth would someday be disclosed to the Church. In other words, Jesus knew that the Church was going to receive a new revelation in the future.
So now, this being the case, I ask: would not GOD bear witness in Their Word to a revelation that They intended to give in the future? Well, I think They would (because They've done it this way before) and if so, then wouldn't a person like Paul (who had gone to heaven and learned the whole truth) and John who ate the little bible most likely be under some leading from the Holy Spirit to bear witness in his writings to these hidden heavenly truths so that, when it was time for their public disclosure later on, there would be some scriptural attestation to them?
But Paul and John could not put it in their open writings in such a way as would disclose the secret ahead of time, right? No, the testimony would have to be hidden somehow so that it remained a secret until the right time.
Therefore, Paul and John would hide the testimony in their writings, knowing that until the time of the revelation, their readers would not really understand what they had written, and that would they make up interpretations which would not be entirely true.
It also stands to reason that these false interpretations would endure unopposed by the truth until the general disclosure in the end times, at which time the new proper interpretation would be made known...
Are we in the end times now? Are you looking askance at accepted theology yet?
Amen! GOD did not present us into creation or had us born into the sin of Adam enslaved to sin...but we suffer and die like sinners as infants...there is the conundrum.
No, GOD created us perfect:
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
upright: Strong's 3477, yashar
Definition: Straight, right, upright, righteous
Meaning: straight
ie, GOD did NOT make us sinful NOR liable to death and suffering but we chose inventions by our sinful desires to rebel against our GOD and so become sinful in HIS sight, liable to death and suffering. Infants from the age of day one, die and it is sin which brings death, James 1:15 ... and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to (creates?) death. proving that infants chose sin before day one.
I conclude it is implied in the fact that death comes from sin and that sin creates death James 1:15, and since infants die in the womb, they must have chosen to be sinful before their conception.
The current reason not to accept this is that the church has stood against it from the Rabbis who denied Christ to the early Fathers who passed it on down.
Of course not...I have over 3 dozen verses I use to defend PCE as scriptural!! Have you not been paying attention? I quote as much scripture as anyone and it is they who cannot quote the words I do without distorting them from their face value...
Reallllly?
Neither do I and the verse does not support that they succeeded which is NOT proof they were not trying to kill each other.
Rather, to stay on topic, WHAT did HE say to her which you are so studiously avoiding talking about...
Yes...but by our own free will choice to rebel against our God, not by means of HIS surrogate Adam.
If someone was trying to crush you to pieces tomorrow, would you not want them to be tried for attempted murder? How could they be crushing each other to be the first born as GOD said they were doing and it not be sinful???
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. You are guilty of sin in your desires which when acted upon causes, creates, death. NO sin - no death.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I recommend you pray more over Romans 5, you have established your own system of righteousness that pleases you instead of God.
That's idolatry.
Cosmo
New member
You have the correct understanding.
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