Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[GodsGrace]

I'm not( I was making a point) but you might as well if you believe they are doomed from the womb, born sinners. All sinners are guilty of sin and condemnation.

I know civic....you were using hyperbole...

And we know a person cannot be saved until they hear and believe the gospel. So all infants are either saved or lost. If they are lost in a condition of sin then they are hell bound. If they are not born a sinner then they are saved.

All infants are saved.
There is scripture to confirm this if anyone wants to get into it....

A baby can't sin because it doesn't know what sin is.

You cannot have it both ways and as an FYI- thats the whole purpose of infant baptism their salvation. Lutherans have a confirmation for teenagers to confirm their salvation as an infant. I know I was born one and went through it myself.

The CC (of which I know its doctrine but am not Catholic) does not teach that babies go to hell if they're born unbaptized.
It's an extreme view brought about by Augustine and which is unbiblical. He was a gnostic,,,what could we expect?

The CC also practices confirmation.
It's a waste of everybody's time..except that the kids do get some catechism.

 

[TedT]

Do young children who die go to hell? No they do not,

ImCo,
salvation is not found in ourselves and our sinlessness but in our relationship with GOD by faith. Those sinners who have a familial relationship with HIM, that is, as HIS sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom etc, will return to HIM in heaven upon their death but

the wicked reprobate, those who have severed their familial connection with HIM by their rebuke of HIM as a liar and therefore a false god will RETURN to Sheol, (not: go down or turn into as yashub* is falsely translated) as taught in Ps 9:17 Berean Standard Bible
The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.

It is not the age of anyone who dies that saves them but only their relationship with their GOD and Saviour by faith in HIM!!!

​

7725. shub ►​

​

Strong's Lexicon shub: Return, turn back, restore, repent Original Word: שׁוּב Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: shuwb Pronunciation: shōōb Phonetic Spelling: (shoob) Definition: Return, turn back, restore, repent Meaning: to turn back, in, to retreat, again​

​

 

[Jay]

Scripture states that all have sinned. In this consideration it must be accounted that all who have the mental capacity to commit sin will eventually do so. The judgment is for everyone who could make a choice to sin. Babies do not have a ability.

 

[TedT]

And we know a person cannot be saved until they hear and believe the gospel. So all infants are either saved or lost.

I believe there is a factor you may have missed in your studies...

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Does not the face value of verse 5 tell us we are sinful at birth but verse 6 adds the info that we, HIS elect children gone astray into sin who are now liable to death, can be taught faith in the womb and by that wisdom, accept their redeemer and thus be saved in the womb even though they later die in the womb.

Since we are elect before the foundation of the world and the reprobate are condemned already, there would seem to be no need to place our redemption as ONLY available after birth. The election promise of salvation can be fulfilled at any age, from womb to 100 years old. Age is not an indication of our relationship with GOD as elect or as reprobate.

 

[TedT]

Those who condemn infants are assassinating Gods/Jesus Good name, nature and character.

shrug...rather it is the idea that GOD condemns the innocent to die like a sinner that assassinates Gods/Jesus Good name, nature and character.

 

[civic]

shrug...rather it is the idea that GOD condemns the innocent to die like a sinner that assassinates Gods/Jesus Good name, nature and character.

God never condemns the innocent but justifies them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand you very well but I disagree with you completely. If you can't understand the difference....sigh.

No Ted. You DO NOT understand me very well.
Here's what you posted: No. 27:

Amen...

they are sinners but they are humble. When they are told they are being bad they do not argue in the face of the truth like the devils of Rom 1:21-the end...but repent and ask forgiveness which describes the essence of those sinners who can be brought to repentance and redemption...


Please note that YOU stated that children are sinners.
I said THEY ARE NOT SINNERS.

So, No, you did not understand me, and I stated that you did not.
So no reason to SIGH.......
and tell me I don't know the difference.

In post #28 I explain how Jacob and Esau were trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb so as to be the first born. Such an intent has to be sinful, abhorrent to GOD so they could not both have been fighting for HIM by faith, one at least (and in my opinion, both of them) was sinning even if the other was fighting in self defence. The fact they could not achieve their murderous desires does not prove they were not being sinful.

Do you think I read ALL of your posts?
No Ted.
I reply to the posts you write to ME.

I'm not here to discuss Romans 9.

ALSO, the scripture teaches that death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life, ie, only sinners die,

Only sinners die.
Great.
So, you mean there are some that don't sin that don't die???

therefore death proves sinfulness as taught in James 1:15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. ie, life does not cause death, only sin? Since infants of every age are liable to death, they must be sinful and in need of a saviour. In fact, GOD orders the death of infants. Why does HE not respect their supposed innocence??? Undeserved suffering and death for an innocent is NOT loving nor righteous, nor just and my GOD is loving, righteous and just!

Please stop.
Please post SCRIPTURE that supports your idea that children sin.

You're using your human reason which is flawed.

Please use God's word which is not flawed.
Thanks.

 

[TedT]

Scripture states that all have sinned. In this consideration it must be accounted that all who have the mental capacity to commit sin will eventually do so. The judgment is for everyone who could make a choice to sin. Babies do not have a ability.

Babies die.
Only sin is said to create death and death is the only wage for sin.
How can a baby have the capacity to choose to be sinful in HIS sight?

Easy...Pre-Conception Existence theology teaches that in our spiritual existence before the foundation of the physical universe (which we all saw, Job 38:7) we were all created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to be holy in HIS sight or, after accepting HIM as Lord and Saviour by faith, to choose to become sinful in HIS sight or to reject HIS gospel as the lies of a false god. These true free will decisions (ie not a fake free will while enslaved to sin) thus self created ourselves as holy angels, the sinful elect or the Satanic reprobate.

Then, after we all saw the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power in the creation of the physical universe, Rom 1:20, which we all saw, Job 38:7, the Son of Man sowed His elect but sinful seeds into this world by our conception as babies: (Matt 13: 36 Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons (people) of the kingdom.) To sow cannot mean to create since the devil is said to sow also...Matt 13:38-39.

Every person created in HIS image and born into this world had our time of full understanding of HIS gospel, Col 1:23, and chose by our hearts desire to put our faith in or against YHWH's gospel before this world... a choice that for sinners is worked out to redemption or to condemnation here in this world.
John 3:18
Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not [ever] believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. is pertinent.

 

[TedT]

God never condemns the innocent but justifies them.

A dead baby to some is a dead innocent, some by great suffering. If they are innocent, how can this be??? Why does the GOD who IS love, righteous and just, do this to an innocent being of HIS creation???

I contend HE does NOT do this...no person on earth, even babies, are innocent except Christ, and by their free will choice to be sinful, they have brought HIS excruciating corrections Heb 12:5-11 (if they are legitimate children) or condemnations (if they are satanic reprobate) upon themselves by their free will decisions...

Nothing can justify treating the sinless innocent like they were sinful, like they had made a free will decision to sin...yet babies suffer and die and sin is the cause of death, James 1:15
Berean Standard Bible
Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[TedT]

Please post SCRIPTURE that supports your idea that children sin.

read my whole input into this thread eh?

 

[GodsGrace]

read my whole input into this thread eh?

I don't think so Ted.

 

[Jay]

We believe at some point in our life all are guilty of sin, as the Bible tells us in Romans 3:23, but when a baby dies, we also believe he or she goes to heaven. So it must be accounted that all who have the mental capacity to commit sin will eventually do so. A baby does not have that.

 

[atpollard]

Why is @civic the only one calling babies despicable devils?

Sure, just quote any other poster that says “babies are despicable devils”.

HERE is the only post and poster that I know that made that claim:

Amen but we know some think they are filthy rotten little despicable sinful devils

Amen but we know some think they are filthy rotten little despicable sinful devils

I look forward to your presenting someone else posting that claim. If you cannot, then you have your answer why I claim @civic is the only one saying that about babies.

 

[civic]

Sure, just quote any other poster that says “babies are despicable devils”.

HERE is the only post and poster that I know that made that claim:


I look forward to your presenting someone else posting that claim. If you cannot, then you have your answer why I claim @civic is the only one saying that about babies.

Nice try as I said some think ( not me) that babies are those things .

 

[atpollard]

Nope it’s what anyone who believes in TD really means - doomed from the womb

I love it. So even though NOBODY says it (or anything like it) we have the benefit of YOU to tell us that that is what we REALLY MEAN.

And here I thought Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) “really means”:


“Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel - he needs the Spirit of God to cause him to be born again.” - Grace Fellowship Church


“Total depravity is the doctrine of original sin that says that the sinner has been blighted by sin in all of his parts. Every person in the human race is corrupted, perverted in his soul, spirit, body, intellect, emotions, will, mind, and understanding. Total depravity does not mean that all of the sinner’s behavior is as bad as it could possibly be. It does not mean that all sinners are equally outrageous in their sinful acts. It does not mean that the sinner cannot make some good decisions or choices by God’s grace. Man is a free moral agent and able, by God’s grace, to make choices within the parameters of his nature.
It does mean, however, that humans are so damaged by sin that they will never turn to Christ to be saved unless God, by His grace, convicts them by His Holy Spirit.” - Lloyd L. Streeter


“No one in his fallen estate understands things as they truly are. It’s not that we are unable to understand the rules of math or linguistics. It means we are all alienated from God, and can’t possible see truth truly. We are bound to see ourselves as better and more in control than we are. And we see God as less good, less sovereign, and less consistent than he really is.
No one in his fallen nature seeks the true God who is revealed in Scripture. He distorts the truth about God, so the god he seeks is not the true God. Fallen man loves to worship, but not as God prescribes, nor to worship the God who really is. He wants a God who doesn’t judge him fairly for what he deserves, a God who will let him have his forbidden pleasures, yet provides salvation too, a God who will measure up to his assumptions and mistaken view of all the rest of reality.
This depravity is total and universal. It includes all humans and touches every part of each one.” - Bob Burridge


“Enslavement to sin characterizes all those who have not yet been transformed by God’s saving grace, and only the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, can set people free to do what is pleasing to the Lord (see John 8:36). This complete enslavement to sin is what we are really talking about when we speak of total depravity. The consequence of Adam’s fall is not merely that it has become more difficult to do what is truly good or that we have been weakened while still retaining some ability to choose to please God. No, the fall has rendered us unable to respond to our Creator in trust, love, and obedience.” - Ligonier Ministries

 

[civic]

I love it. So even though NOBODY says it (or anything like it) we have the benefit of YOU to tell us that that is what we REALLY MEAN.

And here I thought Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) “really means”:


“Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel - he needs the Spirit of God to cause him to be born again.” - Grace Fellowship Church


“Total depravity is the doctrine of original sin that says that the sinner has been blighted by sin in all of his parts. Every person in the human race is corrupted, perverted in his soul, spirit, body, intellect, emotions, will, mind, and understanding. Total depravity does not mean that all of the sinner’s behavior is as bad as it could possibly be. It does not mean that all sinners are equally outrageous in their sinful acts. It does not mean that the sinner cannot make some good decisions or choices by God’s grace. Man is a free moral agent and able, by God’s grace, to make choices within the parameters of his nature.
It does mean, however, that humans are so damaged by sin that they will never turn to Christ to be saved unless God, by His grace, convicts them by His Holy Spirit.” - Lloyd L. Streeter


“No one in his fallen estate understands things as they truly are. It’s not that we are unable to understand the rules of math or linguistics. It means we are all alienated from God, and can’t possible see truth truly. We are bound to see ourselves as better and more in control than we are. And we see God as less good, less sovereign, and less consistent than he really is.
No one in his fallen nature seeks the true God who is revealed in Scripture. He distorts the truth about God, so the god he seeks is not the true God. Fallen man loves to worship, but not as God prescribes, nor to worship the God who really is. He wants a God who doesn’t judge him fairly for what he deserves, a God who will let him have his forbidden pleasures, yet provides salvation too, a God who will measure up to his assumptions and mistaken view of all the rest of reality.
This depravity is total and universal. It includes all humans and touches every part of each one.” - Bob Burridge


“Enslavement to sin characterizes all those who have not yet been transformed by God’s saving grace, and only the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, can set people free to do what is pleasing to the Lord (see John 8:36). This complete enslavement to sin is what we are really talking about when we speak of total depravity. The consequence of Adam’s fall is not merely that it has become more difficult to do what is truly good or that we have been weakened while still retaining some ability to choose to please God. No, the fall has rendered us unable to respond to our Creator in trust, love, and obedience.” - Ligonier Ministries

quote mining fallacy I will get you some real quotes about infants and babies from calvinist theologians.

Calvin himself calls them RATS

Quote: R. C. Sproul​

“John Calvin wrote–and it was an unguarded statement, to be sure–but he wrote that ‘Babies are as depraved as rats.’ I just wish he never wrote that, it’s one of the few places I disagree…’cause it’s such a gross insult to those rats. those poor rats are just chasing cheese, running away from cats, doing the best they can…but that baby is a blasphemer.”

From Theology & Books with R. C. Sproul,

 

[civic]

and James White and the. on elect infant damnation

 

[Bassnah]

I love it. So even though NOBODY says it (or anything like it) we have the benefit of YOU to tell us that that is what we REALLY MEAN.

And here I thought Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) “really means”:


“Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel - he needs the Spirit of God to cause him to be born again.” - Grace Fellowship Church


“Total depravity is the doctrine of original sin that says that the sinner has been blighted by sin in all of his parts. Every person in the human race is corrupted, perverted in his soul, spirit, body, intellect, emotions, will, mind, and understanding. Total depravity does not mean that all of the sinner’s behavior is as bad as it could possibly be. It does not mean that all sinners are equally outrageous in their sinful acts. It does not mean that the sinner cannot make some good decisions or choices by God’s grace. Man is a free moral agent and able, by God’s grace, to make choices within the parameters of his nature.
It does mean, however, that humans are so damaged by sin that they will never turn to Christ to be saved unless God, by His grace, convicts them by His Holy Spirit.” - Lloyd L. Streeter


“No one in his fallen estate understands things as they truly are. It’s not that we are unable to understand the rules of math or linguistics. It means we are all alienated from God, and can’t possible see truth truly. We are bound to see ourselves as better and more in control than we are. And we see God as less good, less sovereign, and less consistent than he really is.
No one in his fallen nature seeks the true God who is revealed in Scripture. He distorts the truth about God, so the god he seeks is not the true God. Fallen man loves to worship, but not as God prescribes, nor to worship the God who really is. He wants a God who doesn’t judge him fairly for what he deserves, a God who will let him have his forbidden pleasures, yet provides salvation too, a God who will measure up to his assumptions and mistaken view of all the rest of reality.
This depravity is total and universal. It includes all humans and touches every part of each one.” - Bob Burridge


“Enslavement to sin characterizes all those who have not yet been transformed by God’s saving grace, and only the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, can set people free to do what is pleasing to the Lord (see John 8:36). This complete enslavement to sin is what we are really talking about when we speak of total depravity. The consequence of Adam’s fall is not merely that it has become more difficult to do what is truly good or that we have been weakened while still retaining some ability to choose to please God. No, the fall has rendered us unable to respond to our Creator in trust, love, and obedience.” - Ligonier Ministries

It's a Calvinistic tactic to hide what they really believe.

Calvinists use various tactics to hide their beliefs. Some of these include avoiding theological language that is not found in the Bible, focusing on the elect who are saved by deterministic means, and using name-calling as a way to defend their ideas. Calvinists believe God elects people for heaven or hell according to His purpose of self-glorification, with no regard to the person's will or response to the Gospel.

“But Adam and Eve were not created fallen. They had no sin nature. They were good creatures with a free will. Yet they chose to sin. Why? I don’t know. Nor have I found anyone yet who does know.” RC Sproul

As can clearly be see, the Calvinist just “kick the can down the road.”

 

[atpollard]

“But Adam and Eve were not created fallen. They had no sin nature. They were good creatures with a free will. Yet they chose to sin. Why? I don’t know. Nor have I found anyone yet who does know.” RC Sproul

As can clearly be see, the Calvinist just “kick the can down the road.”

Does that mean YOU know why Adam and Eve BOTH chose to disobey God and Sin? I would love to hear your explanation.
(Otherwise, you agree with Mr Sproul and your post is pointless).

 

[atpollard]

quote mining fallacy I will get you some real quotes about infants and babies from calvinist theologians.

You were offering YOUR personal definition of “TD”, so I offered what I understood “TD” to mean from several sources that all agree. [Proverbs 24:6] [Matthew 18:16]

Not a “fallacy”, merely obeying Scripture (something we Biblicist do).
Your reaction suggests CDS … seeing things that are not there and ignoring Scriptural truths that are there.