Calvinism : Fictional Characters

Presby02 said:
Even your own source distinguishes between the two. I can't help it you used it as a source. Should have read it more carefully I guess.

They are not the same for the reasons I pointed out and so far your ignoring.
Click to expand...
different words same fate/result that has been predetermined by God- its inevitable in both cases, nothing can change. I'm sorry you cannot see the obvious connections between Theological determinism and fatalism. Its the same cause in both cases- god.

hope this helps !!!
 
Presby02 said:
Even your own source distinguishes between the two. I can't help it you used it as a source. Should have read it more carefully I guess.

They are not the same for the reasons I pointed out and so far your ignoring.
Click to expand...
here is yet another quick google search

Fatalism in theology refers to the belief that since God knows what is going to happen, it follows that it must happen.0 It is a logical contradiction between an omniscient God and free will, where free will is defined as the ability to choose between alternatives. Philosophers have argued that free will is incompatible with determinism and fatalism, with indeterminism being the view that there are events that do not have any cause.1 When fatalism is merged with Christianity, it becomes theological fatalism.0
🌐christianity.com
0
🌐gotquestions.org
1
 
civic said:
different words same fate/result that has been predetermined by God- its inevitable in both cases, nothing can change. I'm sorry you cannot see the obvious connections between Theological determinism and fatalism. Its the same cause in both cases- god.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Different words with different meanings. My post remains not dealt with.

My examples of the problems with his position remains unanswered as well.

civics claim: determinism and fatalism are synonymous terms.
 
civic said:
here is yet another quick google search

Fatalism in theology refers to the belief that since God knows what is going to happen, it follows that it must happen.0 It is a logical contradiction between an omniscient God and free will, where free will is defined as the ability to choose between alternatives. Philosophers have argued that free will is incompatible with determinism and fatalism, with indeterminism being the view that there are events that do not have any cause.1 When fatalism is merged with Christianity, it becomes theological fatalism.0
🌐christianity.com
0
🌐gotquestions.org
1
Click to expand...
So now you deny God's omniscience. Your on a roll
 

Fatalism​

Theological Fatalism​

Traditional Judeo-Christian theology considers God to have omniscient infallible foreknowledge and ubiquitous providence. If God knows all that will happen in a manner that cannot be mistaken, it is difficult to understand how any event can occur differently than it actually does. And, if no event can occur differently, it appears that there are no alternative courses of action that are open to us. We seem to be impotent concerning the constitution of the future. Additionally if everything that occurs is under the control of God's will, then it appears as if every event is divinely determined and so, once again, it appears as though we do not have the power to act otherwise than we actually do.https://science.jrank.org/pages/9332/Fatalism-Theological-Fatalism.html
 
civic said:

Fatalism​

Theological Fatalism​

Traditional Judeo-Christian theology considers God to have omniscient infallible foreknowledge and ubiquitous providence. If God knows all that will happen in a manner that cannot be mistaken, it is difficult to understand how any event can occur differently than it actually does. And, if no event can occur differently, it appears that there are no alternative courses of action that are open to us. We seem to be impotent concerning the constitution of the future. Additionally if everything that occurs is under the control of God's will, then it appears as if every event is divinely determined and so, once again, it appears as though we do not have the power to act otherwise than we actually do.https://science.jrank.org/pages/9332/Fatalism-Theological-Fatalism.html
Click to expand...
Exactly. Remember your choices are not involved in fatalism.
 
More double talk below

This is fatalism.

1646 WCF, 3.1
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own
will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as
thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of
the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established.

1689 LBCF, 3.1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy
counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever
comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath
fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the
creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all
things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

Above is the theological dilemma with cause/effect

1- events/people are determined, predestined, fixed- cause
2- so humans are powerless to change them- effect

hope this helps !!!
 
dictionary.com

See synonyms for: fatalism / fatalistic on Thesaurus.com
🎓 College Level

noun
the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate :Her fatalism helped her to face death with stoic calm.
Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.


conclusion: determinism is fatalism/ calvinism


from wiki

The term "fatalism" can refer to any of the following ideas:

  • Any view according to which human beingsare powerless to do anything other than what they actually do.[1] Included in this is the belief that humans have no power to influence the future or indeed the outcome of their own actions.[2][3][clarification needed]
    • The belief that events are decided by fate and are outside human control
    • One such view is theological fatalism, according to which free will is incompatible with the existence of an omniscient God who has foreknowledge of all future events.[4] This is very similar to theological determinism.[a]
    • A second such view is logical fatalism, according to which propositions about the future which we take to currently be either true or false can only be true or false if future events are already determined.[1]
  • The view that the appropriate reaction to the inevitability of some future event is acceptance or resignation, rather than resistance.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism#cite_note-8 This view is closer to everyday use of the word "fatalism", and is similar to defeatism.


conclusion: determinism is fatalism/ defeatism/calvinism
 
From @e v e on our old forum

there is an incredible text written on fatalism. Dodds, The Greeks and the Irrational.
fatalism's essentially a greek thing at heart, as to its inception,
and relates to the greek fear of their gods (=satanic beings, fallen angels)
concerning their determinism of every detail of life...
the greeks feared those beings.. Christ had not come yet,
this was pre 0AD. and the greeks felt forced to obey them... it was bondage.
---fatalism is based on the capricious and cruel nature of those gods (fallen angels).
it's interesting the term got adapted to situations outside its original intent.
that the gods were fatal to the soul, and compare, every greek tale tells of the gods 'fooling man.'
On one hand it all (the greek philosophy) seems so rational.... (e.g., Aristotle's substance and causality, plato's view of God as unaffected, the unmoved mover etc.)
until it's utter empty sickening cruelty is understood.

the book is a download on scribd.
www.scribd.com


Dodds, The Greeks and The Irrational (In) BB & | PDF​

Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
www.scribd.com

www.scribd.com

Or it is on amazon.

Bringing this up because Christianity and fatalism have zero in common.
God Directing All reality and His outcome happening, is not fatalism whatsoever.

That said, determinism and free will are early modern concepts, after descartes and after the medieval was ending, and related to the "self" that esau was bringing in. It has different roots than does fatalism. Different concept but also, not Christian. The greeks had no idea of a 'self' or 'free will'. Only a deity had 'will'.

Saying that God knows and directs all reality and that He decides what will happen
(which is TRUE!) is NOT
the same as any of these essentially pagan terms and systems:

fatalism (greek) -- explained above in cliff note form
determinism (early modern) -- not explained due to space
occasionalism (leibniz) -- not explained due to space
free will-ism (early modern) -- not explained due to space

debating all this is a waste of time...
God never uses such terms...does He
 
civic said:
More double talk below

This is fatalism.

1646 WCF, 3.1
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own
will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as
thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of
the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established.

1689 LBCF, 3.1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy
counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever
comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath
fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the
creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all
things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

Above is the theological dilemma with cause/effect

1- events/people are determined, predestined, fixed- cause
2- so humans are powerless to change them- effect

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Except it's not. Fatalism has no causation.

Our fate is sealed no matter what we think, say or do. Not so in determinism.

There is no logical evidence of fatalism.

Again. Read your own source.
 
History lesson @e v e from the old forum which is spot on as it went from greek pagan philosophy to Augustine to the reformers into Christianity.

Repeat:
The prime mover unmoved construct is PAGAN.

It comes from the Aristotle, a greek pagan, referring to his gods.

If God was 'unmoved' He would be a sociopath.

The greek gods are sociopathic.. hence aristotle refers to
the mover unmoved....because....
those beings are unaffected, unmoved and do not love. Cruelty is their nature.

That's nothing like our Christian God.

If we did not affect Him He would not have bothered to send His son to save us.
Or to speak to us at all through His Words in Scripture. Or to want us back.

instead we can say

God is perfect and He is love
and He is our deity...
and He knows every hair on heads
and cares for us..
and that He wants His sons, you and all His sons,
to rule with Christ in His New creation (restored eden.)
 
civic said:
History lesson @e v e from the old forum which is spot on as it went from greek pagan philosophy to Augustine to the reformers into Christianity.

Repeat:
The prime mover unmoved construct is PAGAN.

It comes from the Aristotle, a greek pagan, referring to his gods.

If God was 'unmoved' He would be a sociopath.

The greek gods are sociopathic.. hence aristotle refers to
the mover unmoved....because....
those beings are unaffected, unmoved and do not love. Cruelty is their nature.

That's nothing like our Christian God.

If we did not affect Him He would not have bothered to send His son to save us.
Or to speak to us at all through His Words in Scripture. Or to want us back.

instead we can say

God is perfect and He is love
and He is our deity...
and He knows every hair on heads
and cares for us..
and that He wants His sons, you and all His sons,
to rule with Christ in His New creation (restored eden.)
Click to expand...
My post remains unaddressed.
 
civic said:
Keep telling yourself that in spite of the many sources that agree with me, not you.
Click to expand...
I agree with your sources. LOL Especially the one you borrowed. Your the one who now apparently has a issue with it or did not actually read it.

Civics premise: Fatalism and determinism are synonymous terms.

His own source would apparently disagree.
 
Presby02 said:
I agree with your sources. LOL Especially the one you borrowed. Your the one who now apparently has a issue with it or did not actually read it.

Civics premise: Fatalism and determinism are synonymous terms.

His own source would apparently disagree.
Click to expand...
like the bible you take one thing and remove it from the context to form your beliefs.

cherry picking at its finest.
 
civic said:
like the bible you take one thing and remove it from the context to form your beliefs.

cherry picking at its finest.
Click to expand...
Like you cherry picked your source?

More Provisionist hypocrisy.

Let me know when you want to get back to your, so far, failed premise.
 

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