Calvinism : Fictional Characters
- Thread starter Rockson
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civic
Well-known member
false dichotomy fallacy. Foreknowledge is not predestination or determinism/fatalism.
Rockson
Well-known member
Nonsense. Does a man have to prove that if you open a window of a very high building and drop a brick that it's not going to go falling down to the earth? When one takes the wraps off Calvinism it has God as an author of a book ordaining every thought and action that takes place. If Calvinists are going to hold that God ordains everything then they shouldn't be saying that out of one side of their mouth and then swing around and try to negate it by saying in some unknown way that he doesn't.
Calvinism I'd say is perhaps the most disengeious theology one can come across. Other theologies can have great error but what's unique with Calvinism is that it makes claims but then turns and almost seems like it goes another direction (by saying God does not violence or damage to man's will) ....to draw people in I guess.....but then it swings back to say but remember now God ordains EVERYTHING. Buyer beware.
Rockson
Well-known member
And that's Calvinism. Years ago I read a book called Inkheart....which was made into a movie. The idea was that fictional characters of a books were brought into our REAL world. Part of the story one character came across the writer of the book he was from and didn't want to know what the author had written about his fate.
The writer blurted it how to him by mistake and revealed that he was going to die in a horrible type of way. The fictional character had an arguement with the author.......later he was sent back to his fictional world but they didn't send his animal pet which had came with him. Thing was this pet in the book was connected to why he would die. But the fictional pet was taken out of the book The fictional character now had a chance at a new destiny.
Calvinism though has God like an author of a fiction book. He ordains their destinies and what the characters do they were ordained to do. To suggest they have free will all the time is really just an illusion meant to draw people in from the sidelines.....Lesson to know. When Calvinists say everything is ordained then don't let them draw you in by a disingenuous claim that men would still have free will. There is no free will and any real will at all if all is ordained. Never forget that.
Below is a clip from Inkheart where the fictional character is sent back to his fictional world with a chance at a new destiny.
How about crediting your source? I have read the same article. You woukd not want to be accused of stealing would you?Like I say determinism is fatalism.
Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.
- Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.- Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.
Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.
According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.
The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.
As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.
Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.
Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.
calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.
hope this helps !!!
Actually it is
Strong theological determinism is not compatible with metaphysical libertarian free will, and is a form of hard theological determinism (equivalent to theological fatalism below). It claims that free will does not exist, and God has absolute control over a person's actions.
Theological determinism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_determinism
fa·tal·ism
[ˈfādlˌizəm]
noun
- the belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable:
You cannot claim God meticulously determines all things and deny fatalism
But your choice is foreknown and is certain. You cannot choose otherwise. It's your fate to choose what you choose. Even to believe.
Sure do. Even your own article you "borrowed" states some of the differences. Fatalism is impersonal and has no causation. Fatalism does not take into account actions, thoughts or choices.I would get resistance and denial all the time from C’s with fatalism being a synonym of determinism . I would quote Calvinists saying the same thing as the definition of fatalism in their arguments and I would still get denial . Some cannot look in the mirror as see the reflection of what they actually look like to others with their teaching . It’s why compatibism exists for Calvinists who cannot swallow the determinism taught by Calvin . They cry “ mystery’ card where the real Calvinist faces the music with determinism and direct try getting God off the hook and soften the fatalistic world God created in Calvinism . Everything was/ is fixed No exception. Sin, evil was His hard determined will , glory and purpose so by default is culpable.
Websters affirms this below, the calvinist affirms this with their proof texts here: Prov 16:4 ,1 Peter 2:8 and the WCF also affirms this in the confession. Romans 9 and double predestination also affirms its fatalism by the definition. As we see it makes God unjust.
fatalism noun
fa·tal·ism | \ ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm \
Definition of fatalism : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine
from Stanford encyclopedia
Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”.
Do I need to continue
What does your claim that they are synonymous do to the cross of Christ? That was determined correct? Was Christ a victim of fate? Remember fatalism does not take into account what He said, thought or did. It was His fate.. How about Acts 4:27,28? Did they freely choose to betray our Lord or was it simply their fate? They could not have chosen otherwise. It was their fate. So much for your "free will". Remember we are using your your article you "borrowed".
Shall I go on? After you credit your source
Good. Because there is no such thing as LFW
Actually it isn't. Determinism and fatalism are not the same thing. Simply repeating yourself does not make it so.
civic
Well-known member
Its from the AI.
civic
Well-known member
semantics the same thing different names the same results. there are several sources that affirm its true only the calvinist denies the definitions and the overlap between determinism and fatalism. Its the same result by the same means and in this case its the calvinist caricature of the God of the Bible who doesn't resemble in the slightest what determinism/fatalism portrays.
No ifs and or buts about it double predestination is fatalsim. Everything that happens it done by God including their eternal destinies before creation. God is the first cause of everything that comes to pass. The one who causes is the one who is responsible.
Try arguing against that in a courtroom lol. The one who caused the accident, the death, the murder, the rape, is the responsible and guilty party.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
From Christianity.com
In Christianity, this something is God. When fatalism is merged with Christianity, it becomes theological fatalism.
The basic premise of theological fatalism is that, since God knows what is going to happen, it follows that it must happen.
For example, perhaps God knows that tomorrow you are going to bake bread. God is omniscient, and His knowledge is infallible. Thus, He must be correct that you are going to bake bread. If you did not bake bread, then God’s knowledge would be fallible, or imperfect.
However, we know that God is perfect. Thus, because God knows that you will bake bread, you must bake bread; you have no option but to do so.
This leads to an obvious conclusion: If, because of God’s foreknowledge, you have no choice but to do what He foreknows, you in fact have no choice in any matter but only operate according to a set path over which you have no control.
This is the essence of fatalism.
( Now if the above is not the Calvinist position then they are in denial. My comment inserted )
continued below:
The answer is both.
Fatalism is an oversimplification of the issue, clinging to God’s foreknowledge and not its compatibility with free will. Though in the case of predestination versus free will there is an entirely different debate, in the case of fatalism versus free will, the reconciliation is far easier.
This theological alternative acknowledges and embraces that God does indeed foreknow all things, and His knowledge is indeed infallible. However, this foreknowledge does not force anyone to do anything; He simply knows what they will do.
Going back to our bread analogy, God knows that you’re going to bake bread tomorrow. However, He knows it based on His foreknowledge, not because He is forcing you to make bread. He simply knows what the outcome of your choices will be. You will freely choose to make bread, and He knows this. You would be equally free to choose not to make bread, and He would know if you were going to choose that as well.
Fatalism makes the leap that since God knows something, He has decreed it. Rather, sound doctrine teaches us that God, in His infinite power and knowledge, gave us free will — which gives us the ability to disobey that which He desires, as in the Garden of Eden.
Knowing something is going to happen is not the same as causing it to happen.
This also makes God exceptionally cruel, forcing us into sinful actions only to punish us for them. Not only that but if our sinful choices are caused by Him, then all of the bad things that have come into the world because of sin are also due to His whims.
This sort of thinking can quickly lead to anger with God, and understandably so; what sort of God would force us to do terrible things to each other? What sort of God would make sure the world would fall so there would be disease and hunger and disaster? Certainly not the God of love, perfection, and goodness the Bible proclaims.
Rather, if God gave us free will and foreknew what was going to happen but allowed us to make our own decisions anyway that we might choose love, He is instead astoundingly generous in allowing us to make choices and not controlling us as He is certainly able to do.
Let us praise God for His generosity and let us also use the choice that He has given us to choose Him. @Presby02
hope this helps !!!
What Is Fatalism in Christianity?
If something is predetermined, then it must be predetermined by something. For example, in Greek mythology, this was attributed to the Fates, or in Norse mythology, to the Norns or dísir.In Christianity, this something is God. When fatalism is merged with Christianity, it becomes theological fatalism.
The basic premise of theological fatalism is that, since God knows what is going to happen, it follows that it must happen.
For example, perhaps God knows that tomorrow you are going to bake bread. God is omniscient, and His knowledge is infallible. Thus, He must be correct that you are going to bake bread. If you did not bake bread, then God’s knowledge would be fallible, or imperfect.
However, we know that God is perfect. Thus, because God knows that you will bake bread, you must bake bread; you have no option but to do so.
This leads to an obvious conclusion: If, because of God’s foreknowledge, you have no choice but to do what He foreknows, you in fact have no choice in any matter but only operate according to a set path over which you have no control.
This is the essence of fatalism.
( Now if the above is not the Calvinist position then they are in denial. My comment inserted )
continued below:
An Alternative to Fatalism
The Bible seems to indicate both that God knows everything and that humans have choices. So, what is correct?The answer is both.
Fatalism is an oversimplification of the issue, clinging to God’s foreknowledge and not its compatibility with free will. Though in the case of predestination versus free will there is an entirely different debate, in the case of fatalism versus free will, the reconciliation is far easier.
This theological alternative acknowledges and embraces that God does indeed foreknow all things, and His knowledge is indeed infallible. However, this foreknowledge does not force anyone to do anything; He simply knows what they will do.
Going back to our bread analogy, God knows that you’re going to bake bread tomorrow. However, He knows it based on His foreknowledge, not because He is forcing you to make bread. He simply knows what the outcome of your choices will be. You will freely choose to make bread, and He knows this. You would be equally free to choose not to make bread, and He would know if you were going to choose that as well.
Fatalism makes the leap that since God knows something, He has decreed it. Rather, sound doctrine teaches us that God, in His infinite power and knowledge, gave us free will — which gives us the ability to disobey that which He desires, as in the Garden of Eden.
Knowing something is going to happen is not the same as causing it to happen.
The Dangers of Fatalism
Fatalism essentially eliminates responsibility for our actions. If our actions are predetermined, we are not responsible for any terrible things we do. It was all set out for us by Fate or God.This also makes God exceptionally cruel, forcing us into sinful actions only to punish us for them. Not only that but if our sinful choices are caused by Him, then all of the bad things that have come into the world because of sin are also due to His whims.
This sort of thinking can quickly lead to anger with God, and understandably so; what sort of God would force us to do terrible things to each other? What sort of God would make sure the world would fall so there would be disease and hunger and disaster? Certainly not the God of love, perfection, and goodness the Bible proclaims.
Rather, if God gave us free will and foreknew what was going to happen but allowed us to make our own decisions anyway that we might choose love, He is instead astoundingly generous in allowing us to make choices and not controlling us as He is certainly able to do.
What Does Fatalism Mean for Christians?
The reality is that as fallen human beings, we are naturally inclined to choose evil over good, thus standing in opposition to God. However, He has provided a way of reconciliation through Christ, who enables us to choose what is right.Let us praise God for His generosity and let us also use the choice that He has given us to choose Him. @Presby02
hope this helps !!!
Notice my post was not dealt with. The topic is fatalism vs determinism and your claim they are synonymous terms.
Your disappointing your fans.
And their source?
civic
Well-known member
AI- you don't know what AI is online ?
All I know is I read the same article and it's source was not AI.
civic
Well-known member
sure it was dealt with I can't help it if you deny every source that equates determinism with fatalism.
civic
Well-known member
I forgot the exact ? I asked AI but here is one below
Even your own source distinguishes between the two. I can't help it you used it as a source. Should have read it more carefully I guess.
They are not the same for the reasons I pointed out and so far your ignoring.
