Before Abraham I am

[Runningman]

Sorry you offer only denial

The Jews had objected, questioning Christ concerning his age

John 8:53–59 (LEB) — 53 You are not greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself to be?” 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you! But I know him and I keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” 59 Then they picked up stones in order to throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple courts.

Christ addressed their objection and more based upon their reaction

That would have been a usual false accusation or gaslighting employed by Jesus’ opponents. Jesus never said he saw Abraham. If you can find the verse that says otherwise you would be the first.

Nor have you offered any support for your claim

"The matter about Jesus being before Abraham refers to him existing in prophecy, but that’s it. It wasn’t literal."

You are simply assuming your view contrary to scripture

Based on the evidence, which there is an absence of, I am simply going with that.

Provided there is no evidence to the contrary, yes you have provided a fairly bad argument.

Remember, you have not been able to deal with phil 2:5 when Christ existed in the form of God before becoming flesh

No idea what you’re talking about in regards to having not been able to deal with something. We’re obviously remembering this differently. I remember the discussion ending with my points not being addressed and you rejecting every fact and scripture I gave you. You didn’t deal with Philippians 2:5.

or 1 Cor 10:4 when Christ was following the Israelites in the desert

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

Where’s the Old Testament verse where Jesus was literally there doing that?

or 1cor 10:9 putting Christ to the test

1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

when the Old Testament

Numbers 21:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

Shows it was Jehovah God put to the test

Another bad argument. Those manuscripts are obviously false that mention putting “Christ to the test.”

Many versions says “the Lord.” The NASB is one of them.

1 Cor. 10 NASB
9Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.

Heb 11 says nothing at all addressing this issue

Hebrews 11:13 refers to seeing something in faith. The prophecies of Jesus are all that exist before Abraham.

If you could find Jesus in the Old Testament that would be a fairly good start to bolster your argument.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP,
Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"

but did not JESUS as LORD make all things? yes, and he was alone, and by himself. when nthe Lord Jesus spoke as the Christ, he told the truth he, Meaning the Father, and not he himself as the Son, (in flesh), was not before Abraham, but as Spirit yes he was before Abraham.

101G.

 

[TomL]

That would have been a usual false accusation or gaslighting employed by Jesus’ opponents. Jesus never said he saw Abraham. If you can find the verse that says otherwise you would be the first.


Based on the evidence, which there is an absence of, I am simply going with that.

Provided there is no evidence to the contrary, yes you have provided a fairly bad argument.

No idea what you’re talking about in regards to having not been able to deal with something. We’re obviously remembering this differently. I remember the discussion ending with my points not being addressed and you rejecting every fact and scripture I gave you. You didn’t deal with Philippians 2:5.

Where’s the Old Testament verse where Jesus was literally there doing that?

Another bad argument. Those manuscripts are obviously false that mention putting “Christ to the test.”

Many versions says “the Lord.” The NASB is one of them.

1 Cor. 10 NASB
9Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.

Hebrews 11:13 refers to seeing something in faith. The prophecies of Jesus are all that exist before Abraham.

If you could find Jesus in the Old Testament that would be a fairly good start to bolster your argument.

Sorry you are simply in denial

you denied New Testament scripture

1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

that was before his birth in jerusalem

as was this

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

both showing Christ was around long before his birth in Jerusalem

your reply asking for Old Testament text shows you are a selective believer of scripture believing only what supports your doctrine and a denier of what does not

and as for Phil 2:5

I have long challenged you to address the period of time he existed in the form of God, had a mind was able to consider and display humility

I gave you 3 challenges to your claim of non-existence, and you have rebutted none

Give it up

your doctrine is unbiblical and has been refuted

Your only defense is to deny scripture

 

[Bob Carabbio]

John 8:56–59 (ESV) — 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

This is yet another argument for the pre-existance of Christ before becoming as man

The Jews stated you are not yet 50 years old

So chronology is an issue

The clear implication he was not old enough to have seen Abraham

But Jesus shows before Abraham he had existence

Nope He doesn't!!! Jesus (the human MAN) didn't exist before he was miraculously born of Mary (the real one, not the Roman Catholic one).

Who DID exist in Abraham's time was the WORD - who was later incarnated as Jesus. It's covered in the Bible.

 

[mikesw]

Nope He doesn't!!! Jesus (the human MAN) didn't exist before he was miraculously born of Mary (the real one, not the Roman Catholic one).

Who DID exist in Abraham's time was the WORD - who was later incarnated as Jesus. It's covered in the Bible.

You have just stated the same thing TomL did. But the restatement is still useful.

 

[TomL]

Nope He doesn't!!! Jesus (the human MAN) didn't exist before he was miraculously born of Mary (the real one, not the Roman Catholic one).

Who DID exist in Abraham's time was the WORD - who was later incarnated as Jesus. It's covered in the Bible.

Not talking about his humanity talking about his existence as the Word though scripture does use the name to speak of him

 

[Selah]

Not talking about his humanity talking about his existence as the Word though scripture does use the name to speak of him

I believe that Jesus, the Word, was with the Father before the creation of the world. Everything that Jesus did when He came in the flesh was foreordained. It was God’s perfect plan from the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
- 1 Peter 1:20-21

 

[Runningman]

Not talking about his humanity talking about his existence as the Word though scripture does use the name to speak of him

The word, statement, or divine speech of God isn’t an actual person anywhere in the Old Testament. That’s called personification of a non person thing to refer to the words that someone speaks as a person.

Logos theology isn’t a big point in the New Testament. Not how any of the inspired writers testified of Jesus. Matt, Mark, and Luke just discussed Jesus being a human. The rest of the New Testament, aside from John and 1 John 1, refer to Jesus as a man and ethnic Jew, such as how Paul did in Romans 9:5. Peter did such in Acts 2.

On the matter of the Word, yes 1 John 1:1-3 is blatant about the Word being a thing. You’re misunderstanding this. De Nile isn’t just a river in Egypt folks.

 

[101G]

I believe that Jesus, the Word, was with the Father before the creation of the world. Everything that Jesus did when He came in the flesh was foreordained. It was God’s perfect plan from the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
- 1 Peter 1:20-21

GINOLJC, to all
Hi Selah, this is what many do not understand. the Lord Jesus as the Christ, (flesh bone and blood), was not in the beginning, but was to come. this is what the H259 ECHAD is all about. understand Jesus is God almighty, the one true Spirit that shared himself in flesh that was to come in Ordinal designation.

now let's understand this term "WITH" in relation to the Godhead. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First is ..... "WITH" the Last right. just like the Word was "WITH" God in John 1:1. seems like two separate and distinct persons Right.... WRONG, and here's why. listen to the scriptures. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." and the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. so, the First, in addition too to Last is the same one person. that word "also" reveals the term with in the Godhead.

hope that help.

101G.

 

[Selah]

GINOLJC, to all
Hi Selah, this is what many do not understand. the Lord Jesus as the Christ, (flesh bone and blood), was not in the beginning, but was to come. this is what the H259 ECHAD is all about. understand Jesus is God almighty, the one true Spirit that shared himself in flesh that was to come in Ordinal designation.

now let's understand this term "WITH" in relation to the Godhead. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First is ..... "WITH" the Last right. just like the Word was "WITH" God in John 1:1. seems like two separate and distinct persons Right.... WRONG, and here's why. listen to the scriptures. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." and the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. so, the First, in addition too to Last is the same one person. that word "also" reveals the term with in the Godhead.

hope that help.

101G.

Amen. Very well stated. I thank thee.

There is only One God, and He is everywhere!

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

- John 1:14

 

[TomL]

The word, statement, or divine speech of God isn’t an actual person anywhere in the Old Testament. That’s called personification of a non person thing to refer to the words that someone speaks as a person.

Logos theology isn’t a big point in the New Testament. Not how any of the inspired writers testified of Jesus. Matt, Mark, and Luke just discussed Jesus being a human. The rest of the New Testament, aside from John and 1 John 1, refer to Jesus as a man and ethnic Jew, such as how Paul did in Romans 9:5. Peter did such in Acts 2.

On the matter of the Word, yes 1 John 1:1-3 is blatant about the Word being a thing. You’re misunderstanding this. De Nile isn’t just a river in Egypt folks.

Sorry but you are not an honest interpreter of scripture

You claim col 2:15 shows Christ the first created being while you also claim he had no pre-existent

You also argue as the word he was a god while again claiming he has no personal existance

you deny scripture when it states

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
and
1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

your bias prevents you from being an honest expositor of scripture

with such contrary arguments and denials of scripture you should give up that unbiblical view you hold

p

 

[TomL]

I believe that Jesus, the Word, was with the Father before the creation of the world. Everything that Jesus did when He came in the flesh was foreordained. It was God’s perfect plan from the beginning.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
- 1 Peter 1:20-21

Yes - I believe that Jesus, the Word, was with the Father before the creation of the world

That is what scripture shows

 

[Runningman]

Sorry but you are not an honest interpreter of scripture

You claim col 2:15 shows Christ the first created being while you also claim he had no pre-existent

Colossians 1:15 places Jesus in the same category as the creation, not independent of it. It also says he isn't God.

1 Timothy 1:17 says the invisible God is the only God. Colossians 1:15 says the image of God is Jesus. One is the only God, the other is not God. People did not believe what you do about God and Jesus in the church Jesus established. It is best to get back to the roots of what the Bible teaches. Trinitarianism isn't the way.

You also argue as the word he was a god while again claiming he has no personal existance

I claim the word did not pre-exist on the good authority of the Bible. There is no one there named the word. I have nothing to offer to show he did.

If you have proof, now is the time to show the world. No one has found it yet.

you deny scripture when it states

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
and

Christ is not Jesus' name, so this verse literally says "the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was an anointing" because that's how it literally translates into english. Furthermore, there is no one there following the Israelites around in the desert, hence it was referred to as a spiritual rock, i.e., a spiritual thing.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

For full transparency to the readers, the word "Christ" is excluded in this verse by many versions. We'll keep Tom honest for you since Tom isn't good at showing the truth.

1 Cor. 10:9 (NASB)
9Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them [c]did, and were killed by the snakes.

your bias prevents you from being an honest expositor of scripture

Your bias is making your presentation of scripture out to be dishonest.

with such contrary arguments and denials of scripture you should give up that unbiblical view you hold

p

Your argument just got refuted.

 

[Runningman]

Yes - I believe that Jesus, the Word, was with the Father before the creation of the world

That is what scripture shows

Please cite the Old Testament verse that plainly shows Jesus as the Word pre-existing with God.

 

[TomL]

Please cite the Old Testament verse that plainly shows Jesus as the Word pre-existing with God.

What? The New Testament is not good enough for you?

Address the New Testament verses you ignored and deal with your contradictory arguments

Loading…

berean-apologetics.community.forum

 

[Runningman]

What? The New Testament is not good enough for you?

Address the New Testament verses you ignored and deal with your contradictory arguments

Loading…

berean-apologetics.community.forum

If you have a point make it. I am not clicking your links.

 

[TomL]

Colossians 1:15 places Jesus in the same category as the creation, not independent of it. It also says he isn't God.

No it does not as you ignore context and previous argument showing the meaning of firstborn and ignoring the fact the term does not mean first created which you do not believe either

and you do not deal with the fact the interpretaion you put forth here is contrary to your view he was an impersonal thing

hello

you come across as one who will adopt anything to deny Christ's deity

1 Timothy 1:17 says the invisible God is the only God. Colossians 1:15 says the image of God is Jesus. One is the only God, the other is not God. People did not believe what you do about God and Jesus in the church Jesus established. It is best to get back to the roots of what the Bible teaches. Trinitarianism isn't the way.

No it does not. You assume the only wise God a being is but one person begging the question and ignoring a host of scriptures showing Christ's deity

I claim the word did not pre-exist on the good authority of the Bible. There is no one there named the word. I have nothing to offer to show he did.

That why is it even your own arguments contradict that view

Hello

contradiction is a sign of error

and your theology is flashing a lot of signs

If you have proof, now is the time to show the world. No one has found it yet.

Sorry you are in denial as it is all over the board and your main response to the evidence has been bald denial

Christ is not Jesus' name, so this verse literally says "the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was an anointing" because that's how it literally translates into english. Furthermore, there is no one there following the Israelites around in the desert, hence it was referred to as a spiritual rock, i.e., a spiritual thing.

Sorry no that is not what it is saying at all and there is not a translation on earth that reads an anoiting

and the personal testing seen below testifies as you your error

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Ps you forget the angel of the lord which followed the Israelites in the cloud

For full transparency to the readers, the word "Christ" is excluded in this verse by many versions. We'll keep Tom honest for you since Tom isn't good at showing the truth.

Seeing as falsehood is not beyond you

All major translations read Christ at 1cor 10:4

at 1cor 10:9 most read Christ as well or they read the lord or messiah

rebuting your claim of an impersonal anoiting

Also the text at 1cor 10:4 reads the christ - christos masculine singular

So it is your argument which is refuted

I have not seen a single translation which reads the anoiting.

The same with 1cor 10:9

Facts you hide when you state

the word "Christ" is excluded in this verse by many versions.

seems the problem is keeping you honest

 

[TomL]

If you have a point make it. I am not clicking your links.

Happy to

Sorry but you are not an honest interpreter of scripture

You claim col 2:15 shows Christ the first created being while you also claim he had no pre-existent

You also argue as the word he was a god while again claiming he has no personal existance

you deny scripture when it states

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
and
1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

your bias prevents you from being an honest expositor of scripture

with such contrary arguments and denials of scripture you should give up that unbiblical view you hold

 

[Runningman]

Happy to

Sorry but you are not an honest interpreter of scripture

You claim col 2:15 shows Christ the first created being while you also claim he had no pre-existent

You also argue as the word he was a god while again claiming he has no personal existance

you deny scripture when it states

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
and
1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

your bias prevents you from being an honest expositor of scripture

with such contrary arguments and denials of scripture you should give up that unbiblical view you hold

Didn't I already reply to this comment? Here we go again. I have experience talking to you. I already addressed all of these points in comment #33.

 

[TomL]

Didn't I already reply to this comment? Here we go again. I have experience talking to you. I already addressed all of these points in comment #33.

Sorry you did not address all these point

You had no excuse for your use of arguments that are contrary to your own view

and Your reply to 1Cor 10:4 and 1Cor 10:9 was shown to be disingenuous and refuted

You claim col 2:15 shows Christ the first created being while you also claim he had no pre-existent

You also argue as the word he was a god while again claiming he has no personal existance

you deny scripture when it states

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
and
1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,