Runningman
Well-known member
This can only been seen as you fleeing. I have responded directly to that comment. Read comment #33 again. Your position has been refuted.
Before Abraham I am
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Sorry you ignore the replies that followed
see post 37 in particular exposing your false allusion
you are the runner here
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Runningman
Well-known member
One more time I'll post some of what was already said from comment #33, with your comments from comment #31, before you started pretending like it doesn't exist. Reply if you wish.
Colossians 1:15 places Jesus in the same category as the creation, not independent of it. It also says he isn't God.
1 Timothy 1:17 says the invisible God is the only God. Colossians 1:15 says the image of God is Jesus. One is the only God, the other is not God. People did not believe what you do about God and Jesus in the church Jesus established. It is best to get back to the roots of what the Bible teaches. Trinitarianism isn't the way.
I claim the word did not pre-exist on the good authority of the Bible. There is no one there named the word. I have nothing to offer to show he did.
If you have proof, now is the time to show the world. No one has found it yet.
Christ is not Jesus' name, so this verse literally says "the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was an anointing" because that's how it literally translates into english. Furthermore, there is no one there following the Israelites around in the desert, hence it was referred to as a spiritual rock, i.e., a spiritual thing.
For full transparency to the readers, the word "Christ" is excluded in this verse by many versions. We'll keep Tom honest for you since Tom isn't good at showing the truth.
1 Cor. 10:9 (NASB)
9Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them [c]did, and were killed by the snakes.
While still ignoring post 37
hello
t
Nope
Colossians 1:15–16 (KJV 1900) — 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
you have multiple problems here
1) Every creature did not birth Christ
2) there is a word for first created and prototokos is not it
3 examples of a use of prototokos
Firstborn prototokos gr sometimes used to denote preeminence or headship or even favoritism. it is sometimes transferred
Exodus 4:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
denoting favoritism
Psalm 89:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, Higher than the kings of the earth.
showing pre-eminence
Genesis 41:50–52 (KJV 1900) — 50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Poti-pherah priest of On bare unto him. 51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. 52 And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.
Manasseh was the first one born of Joseph but
Jeremiah 31:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters In a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: For I am a father to Israel, And Ephraim is my firstborn.
the second on born was made firstborn
you ignored the claim of pre-eminence
4) you ignored context
Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Christ is firstborn - pre-eminent because he created all things. Seeing as he could not create himself he could not be a creatred being
you ignored this as well
1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The Father is the only wise God so is the son and the spirit
you simply assume God can be but one person
And your comment
"People did not believe what you do about God and Jesus in the church Jesus established."
Is contrary to history
He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.
Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.
God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.
Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.
I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.
The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.
Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.
Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.
We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.
The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.
The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.
Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.
For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.
[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.
Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.
He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.
David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.
The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.
If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.
“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.
He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.
Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.
God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.
There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.
God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.
“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.
For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.
I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.
Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.
He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.
Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.
How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.
It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.
He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.
There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.
O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.
The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.
Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.
Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.
He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.
Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.
The best thing on earth is the most pious man. The best thing in heaven, the nearer in place and purer, is an angel, the partaker of the eternal and blessed life. But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is the most perfect, most holy, most potent, most princely, most kingly, and most beneficent. This is the highest excellence, who orders all things in accordance with the Father’s will and holds the helm of the universe in the best way.… The Son of God is never displaced … being always everywhere and being contained nowhere. He is complete mind, complete paternal light. He is all eyes, seeing all things, hearing all things, knowing all things.… All the host of angels and gods are placed in subjection to Him. He, the paternal Word, exhibits the holy administration for Him who put [all things] in subjection to Him. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.524.
The Son is the cause of all good things, by the will of the Almighty Father. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.525.
He is the true Only-Begotten, the express image of the glory of the universal King and Almighty Father, who impresses on the man of God the seal of the perfect contemplation, according to His own image. So that there is now a third divine image, made as far as possible like the Second Cause, the Essential Life. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.527.
Nor do we differ from the Jews concerning God. We must make, therefore, a remark or two as to Christ’s divinity. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.34.
Search, then, and see if the divinity of Christ is true. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.36.
To all He is equal, to all King, to all Judge, to all God and Lord. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.158.
Christ’s name is extending everywhere, believed everywhere, worshipped by all the above-enumerated nations, reigning everywhere. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.158.
This opens the ears of Christ our God. Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.715.
We who believe that God really lived on earth, and took upon Him the low estate of human form, for the purpose of man’s salvation, are very far from thinking as those do who refuse to believe that God cares for anything.… Fortunately, however, it is a part of the creed of Christians even to believe that God did die, and yet that He is alive forevermore. Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.309.
Christ is received in the person of Christ, because even in this manner is He our God. Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.319.
He is not on this account to be regarded as an angel—as a Gabriel or a Michael.… Since He is the Spirit of God and the Power of the Highest, can He be regarded as lower than the angels? He who is truly God and the Son of God? Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.534.
For so did the Father previously say to the Son: “Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness.” Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.549.
If God had willed not to be born, He would not have presented Himself in the likeness of man. Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.522.
Christ never used that familiar phrase of all the prophets, “Thus saith the Lord.” For He was Himself the Lord, who openly spoke by His own authority, prefacing his words with the phrase, “Truly, truly, I say unto you.” Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.534.
“Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,” that is to say, the Son in the Father’s name. And as for the Father’s names—God Almighty, the Most High, the Lord of Hosts, the King of Israel, the One Who Is—the Scriptures teach us and we say that they belonged suitably to the Son also. We say that the Son came under these designations and has always acted in them and has thus manifested them in Himself to men. He says, “All things that the Father has are mine.” Then, why not His names also? Tertullian (c. 213, W), 3.613.
How is it that the Son suffered, yet the Father did not suffer with Him? [The answer is that] the Father is separate from the Son, though not separated from Him as God. For example, a river flows from a fountain identical in nature with it, and it is not separated from the fountain. Nevertheless, if the river is soiled with mire and mud, the injury that affects the stream does not reach to the fountain. To be sure, it is the water of the fountain that suffers downstream. Nevertheless, since it is not affected at the fountain (but only at the river) the fountain suffers nothing. Tertullian (c. 213, W), 3.626.
Although He endured the cross, yet as God He returned to life, having trampled upon death. For His God and Father addresses Him, and says, “Sit at my right hand.” Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.166, 167.
By the Ancient of Days, he means none other than the Lord, God, and Ruler of all—even of Christ Himself, who makes the days old and yet does not become old Himself by times and days. “His dominion is an everlasting dominion.” The Father, having put all things in subjection to His own Son—both things in heaven and things on earth—presented Him as the First-Begotten of God. He did this in order that, along with the Father, He might be approved before angels as the Son of God and be manifested as also the Lord of angels. Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.189.
Christ’s body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity. Rather, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father. Yet, He was also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father is not. And he comprehends all things in Himself. Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.194.
Who, then, was in heaven but the Word unincarnate—who was sent to show that He was upon earth and was also in heaven? Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.225.
Having been made man, He is still God forever. For to this effect, John also has said, “Who is, and who was, and who is to come—the Almighty.” And he has appropriately called Christ “the Almighty.” For in this, he has said only what Christ testifies of Himself. For Christ gave this testimony and said, “All things are delivered unto me by my Father.” Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.225.
Besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the pagans in defense of the truth and against the heresies of their day.… For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren—which have been written from the beginning by the faithful—celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him. Eusebius, quoting Caius (c. 215, W), 5.601.
No one should be offended that the Savior is also God, seeing God is the Father. Likewise, since the Father is called Omnipotent, no one should be offended that the Son of God is also called Omnipotent. For in this way, the words will be true that He says to the Father: “All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.” Now, if all things that are the Father’s are also Christ’s, certainly one of those things is the omnipotence of the Father. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.250.
“The works that the Father does, these the Son does likewise.” And again He says that the Son cannot do anything of Himself, but only what He sees the Father do. For the Son in no way differs from the Father in the power of His works. The work of the Son is not a different thing from that of the Father. Rather, it is one and the same movement.… He therefore called Him a stainless mirror, that by such an expression it might be understood that there is no dissimilarity whatever between the Son and the Father. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.251.
Jesus Christ Himself is the Lord and Creator of the soul. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.271.
David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–97.
end pt1
Except you contradict that with your own argument
John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Which you read as a god or godly
Well, that would be pre-existence
Your own arguments refute the view you espouse
you however denied continuity between the Word and the man Christ
However context refutes your claim
John 1:1–14 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The word was the only begotten (monogenos) of the father - Christ is the monogenos
You claimed Christ was the firstborn Col 1:15 which in your erroneous view - the first created; well that would also contradict your denial of pre-existence (See pt1 for a refutation of your understanding)
It has been presented many times and many have believed it. You on the other offer only denial and a failure to allow context form your understanding
Sorry here you show your deception
There is not a translation existing which translates Christos (masculine singular noun) as anointing
Further
1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Persons are tempted not an impersonal anointing
additionally
1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Note this refutes not only your denial of Christ's pre-existence, but it shows him to be God for it was God Jehovah which followed them
Here you show your deception again
The lord is Christ not an impersonal anointing and
the same translation shows
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NASB 2020) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
hello
if you allowed context to form your theology you would not come to so many erroneous conclusions
not one translation supports your claim of an impersonal anointing
Demonstrating it's you who has a problem with honesty
and you who stands refuted over and over
Runningman
Well-known member
Actually, depending on the manuscript, 1 Corinthians 10:9 does not include any mention of Christ. Why you would call that a deception is beyond me. Just shows you haven't done your due diligence in studying. If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't just simply zealously deny everything that is put in front of you. So there goes one of your points refuted.... again.
Another point is that a "spiritual rock" isn't an actual person. Hence Jesus isn't actually in the Old Testament saying or doing anything. There was no name dropping about Jesus and no hint he was there. That wasn't something that was revealed to any prophet.
What you desperately lack, and I know because you would be blasting them all over this forum, are any concrete verses that actually prove the pre-existence of Jesus. No one can be found in the Old Testament that seems like Jesus. If this were a court of law, he couldn't be proven to have pre-existed.
you still like ability to follow the nuances of scripture. Indeed the name "Jesus" does not appear for Christ in his pre-incarnate state within the godhead. John 1 shows Christ exists in the pre-incarnate state. Jesus says that, but that is not enough evidence that Jesus is speaking of his eternal existence. If you found a jury in a court of law convinced by your argument, that jury best not sit on any murder trial.
You also introduce less accurate manuscripts when you suggest alternative wording in 1 Cor 10:9. Even the alternative word is not rejecting that Christ Jesus is in view. The other wording just shows how Christ, Lord, and God can be hard to differentiate when talking about Jesus. So you have to prefer the worst manuscripts that do not support your view but just are used to create doubt in what scripture clearly says.
That is just like any other atheist who fails to consider the best evidence of scripture and relies on weak arguments in order to deny the existence of God.
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Sorry you are being deceptive and here is the evidence
The majority text states Christ, the modern text has either Christ, messiah, or lord which in context 1co 10:4 is Christ
Not one has anointing
Showing it is you who just denies facts
And according to the text of 1 Cor 10:4-9 he is following the Israelites, and he was tried by their actions something not possible for an impersonal thing
Finally you flat out lie when you state there are no verses showing his pre-existence
I have posted/done the following
I refuted your denial of continuity between the Word and Jesus BTW your affirmation of a god or godly supports my position on pre-exisdtence and denies yours
Showing he created all things
Quoted multiple verses where he states he came down from heaven
e the world was
Phil 2:5ff where he existed in the form of God before being made flesh You continually ignore this
d
st
Runningman
Well-known member
You have lost 1 Corinthians 10:4 & 9 as a proof text for the pre-existence of Jesus.
1 Cor. 10:4 says it's a spiritual rock, i.e., not a person. And there is not a person named Christ following the Israelites around in the desert. The Christ or Messiah is a human and didn't exist until after his birth. He wasn't made Christ until after he was already human according to Acts 2:36. The Messiah didn't pre-exist as the Messiah so the idea of Christ being a spiritual rock that followed them is either prophetic or a misnomer. It's not a misnomer, therefore you're flatout wrong.
The word "Christ" doesn't exist in the manuscripts for 1 Corinthians 10:9 because it doesn't make any sense if it does. If it did, it would be another misnomer because the Christ didn't exist yet. Pretty difficult to anger a non-existent being. The best versions of 1 Cor. 10:9 say "the Lord" in reference to the Father, not Jesus.
1 Cor. 10 (NASB)
9Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.
Runningman
Well-known member
I firmly believe, now more than ever, that the prevailing issue that you have is that of foundational coherency. I think we can actually sort this out by asking key questions because I can tell you're a smart guy.
So since 1 Corinthians 10:4 says the spiritual rock that followed them was "Christ" then when did the Son become the Christ?
Sorry you just deny the evidence as was noted
You ignored much
lets look at your claims regarding 1 Cor 10:4 and 1Cor 10:9
and list some translations
1 Corinthians 10:4 (ESV) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NIV) — 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NASB 2020) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
All say Christ Cristos in the Greek using a masculine singular noun
An impersonal thing follows no one
now lets look at verse 9
1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV) — 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,
1 Corinthians 10:9 (NIV) — 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
1 Corinthians 10:9 (UASV) — 9 Neither let us put the Lord to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by serpents.
1 Corinthians 10:9 (NASB 2020) — 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.
not one speaks of an impersonal anointing, nor can one provoke an impersonal thing
and in context the lord is Christ
It's obvious you are a bible denier
either ignoring or denying what the bible states
Runningman
Well-known member
Straight denials on your part at this point. You clearly can't be reasoned with.
You ignored this
lets look at your claims regarding 1 Cor 10:4 and 1Cor 10:9
and list some translations
1 Corinthians 10:4 (ESV) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NIV) — 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NASB 2020) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
All say Christ Cristos in the Greek using a masculine singular noun
An impersonal thing follows no one
now lets look at verse 9
1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV) — 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,
1 Corinthians 10:9 (NIV) — 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
1 Corinthians 10:9 (UASV) — 9 Neither let us put the Lord to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by serpents.
1 Corinthians 10:9 (NASB 2020) — 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.
not one speaks of an impersonal anointing, nor can one provoke an impersonal thing
and in context the lord is Christ
It's obvious you are a bible denier
either ignoring or denying what the bible states
And BTW here are the various texts
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NA27) — 4 καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας, ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός. Nestle Aland 27
1 Corinthians 10:4 (WH1881MR) — 4 και παντες το αυτο πνευματικον επιον πομα επινον γαρ εκ πνευματικης ακολουθουσης πετρας η πετρα δε ην ο χριστος Wescott-Hort
1 Corinthians 10:4 (TR1550MR) — 4 και παντες το αυτο πομα πνευματικον επιον επινον γαρ εκ πνευματικης ακολουθουσης πετρας η δε πετρα ην ο χριστος Stephan's Textus Receiptus - received text
1 Corinthians 10:4 (TR1881) — 4 καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πόμα πνευματικὸν ἔπιον· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας· ἡ δὲ πέτρα ἦν ὁ Χριστός. Schrivener Textus Receptus
1 Corinthians 10:4 (Elzevir) — 4 και παντες το αυτο πομα πνευματικον επιον επινον γαρ εκ πνευματικης ακολουθουσης πετρας η δε πετρα ην ο χριστος Elzevir's received text
1 Corinthians 10:4 (Tisch) — 4 και παντες το αυτο πνευματικον επιον πομα επινον γαρ εκ πνευματικης ακολουθουσης πετρας η πετρα δε ην ο χριστος Tischendorf's
1 Corinthians 10:4 (BYZ) — 4 και παντες το αυτο πομα πνευματικον επιον επινον γαρ εκ πνευματικης ακολουθουσης πετρας η δε πετρα ην ο χριστος Byzantine majority text
It's obvious you are a bible denier
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You can point out a picture of your wife to your niece's friend and say "This is Mrs. Runningman when she was 3 years old." You are not improperly identifying her even if you did marry her 25 years later. Scriptures also appears to have certain names modified to anachronistic names presumably so the text would understood better.
You still have failed to make a coherent argument, especially since you are going against the testimony of scripture. Your rejection of the natural meaning makes the various texts meaningless all so you can deny the deity of Christ.
Runningman
Well-known member
You didn't answer my question. So the answer to this question is that Jesus didn't become the Christ until after his birth. Therefore, under the name of "Christ" he didn't pre-exist. Hence, the "spiritual rock" that followed them was a prophetic rock. The "spiritual rock" they drank from is an allusion to the rock Moses struck and water gushed forth. Likewise, Christ was struck as a human and water gushed out on the cross. Seeing the point now? The Christ didn't pre-exist. All of the prophecies concerning the Christ in the Old Testament are prophetic.
John 19 (NIV)
34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
Acts 2 (NIV)
36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
You do not understand scripture. You keep proving it. I made a proper argument and you cannot comprehend it.
Also, if you cannot make a convincing argument, you should not be sharing those bad arguments because they don't make sense. It might only be convincing to ignorant people.
Runningman
Well-known member
You complained, bickered, and essentially produced a virtual impotent backhand against me. It got ignored. I'm pressing forward with a Bible discussion. Are you in or just here to waste our time?
Apparently I am wasting my time since you do not follow logic. The useful thing is that you are helping prove the Trinitarian concept is true.
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Runningman
Well-known member
That's your dream and fantasy. Your religion is losing members like flies dropping. Unitarianism is extremely Biblical and effective. You won't convert today, but eventually you will. The fact that Jesus is a man that God was with rather than a man who is God is very coherent and easy to digest. I have brought more people to Christ than you could shake a stick at and they're Unitarians. We're going to outnumber you people again. Wait and see.
That's your dream and fantasy. Your religion is losing members like flies dropping. Unitarianism is extremely Biblical and effective. You won't convert today, but eventually you will. The fact that Jesus is a man that God was with rather than a man who is God is very coherent and easy to digest. I have brought more people to Christ than you could shake a stick at and they're Unitarians. We're going to outnumber you people again. Wait and see.
I would prefer holding to the testimony of scripture and the true God. It is not my job to recruit people based on the lies that you share. God is the one who does the change of people's hearts. It does not matter how many people you bring to "Christ" when you do it by pleasing man. We are in a time of big deception and you are contributing to that deception. You do not even have viable arguments to support your doctrines. You have to disregard the facial reading of scriptures or find weird and outdated sources to make your arguments. If your disregard of the deity of Christ was so "coherent and easy to digest," you would not need to misinterpret scholars to make your point.
