Before Abraham I am

[Runningman]

I would prefer holding to the testimony of scripture and the true God. It is not my job to recruit people based on the lies that you share. God is the one who does the change of people's hearts. It does not matter how many people you bring to "Christ" when you do it by pleasing man. We are in a time of big deception and you are contributing to that deception. You do not even have viable arguments to support your doctrines. You have to disregard the facial reading of scriptures or find weird and outdated sources to make your arguments. If your disregard of the deity of Christ was so "coherent and easy to digest," you would not need to misinterpret scholars to make your point.

Then why do you reject the plain words of Jesus who said the Father is the only true God in John 17:1-3? Is english your first language, care to look at a dictionary or lexicon? It won't hurt you to confess the truth, I promise. Please tell us what the word "Only" means.


John 17 (NIV)
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[mikesw]

Then why do you reject the plain words of Jesus who said the Father is the only true God in John 17:1-3? Is english your first language, care to look at a dictionary or lexicon? It won't hurt you to confess the truth, I promise. Please tell us what the word "Only" means.


John 17 (NIV)
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Duhhh. Christ is able to reveal the true God when he shows that he is that image of God to them. Jesus is of that true God and is not a separate god. The problem is that you push some verses you think will make your point but you disregard (or badly interpret) the verses that speak against it. Deal with the verses that speak against your view and try to make a viable argument in your favor.
You still are stuck with a failed argument about 1 Cor 10:9 but you desired to leave that argument, despite having been shown your view failed. I figure you are working on the premise that the scholarly world is biased toward Trinitarian concepts and that you have to work to reveal that. But your arguments don't suffice but only help lend credence to Trinitarianism.
You should be grateful for all the feedback you have been given about your flawed arguments so that you can try to improve them in the future.

 

[Runningman]

Duhhh. Christ is able to reveal the true God when he shows that he is that image of God to them. Jesus is of that true God and is not a separate god. The problem is that you push some verses you think will make your point but you disregard (or badly interpret) the verses that speak against it. Deal with the verses that speak against your view and try to make a viable argument in your favor.
You still are stuck with a failed argument about 1 Cor 10:9 but you desired to leave that argument, despite having been shown your view failed. I figure you are working on the premise that the scholarly world is biased toward Trinitarian concepts and that you have to work to reveal that. But your arguments don't suffice but only help lend credence to Trinitarianism.
You should be grateful for all the feedback you have been given about your flawed arguments so that you can try to improve them in the futur

According to you, the Trinity is the only true God. Jesus didn't say there are three persons, each God, not three gods, but rather one God. He was directly identifying the one you also call Father as the only true God. Starting to see why Jesus only taught about praying to the Father, worshiping the Father, and no one else? See why Jesus not only taught others to do that, but also did it himself?

1 Cor. 10:9 isn't in this thread. Besides, the Old Testament is an older manuscript than the New Testament. Paul didn't read anything about Jesus following them in the desert in the Old Testament.

I haven't seen any good arguments for the Trinity yet.

 

[mikesw]

According to you, the Trinity is the only true God. Jesus didn't say there are three persons, each God, not three gods, but rather one God. He was directly identifying the one you also call Father as the only true God. Starting to see why Jesus only taught about praying to the Father, worshiping the Father, and no one else? See why Jesus not only taught others to do that, but also did it himself?

1 Cor. 10:9 isn't in this thread. Besides, the Old Testament is an older manuscript than the New Testament. Paul didn't read anything about Jesus following them in the desert in the Old Testament.

I haven't seen any good arguments for the Trinity yet.

Paul was appointed of God to share about God. we can trust him. we have to trust him. So he has shared accurately just as a prophet shares accurately.

You don't have to believe the Trinity. Neither can anyone force you to accept truth. Maybe Christ will give you grace to see.

 

[Runningman]

Paul was appointed of God to share about God. we can trust him. we have to trust him. So he has shared accurately just as a prophet shares accurately.

You don't have to believe the Trinity. Neither can anyone force you to accept truth. Maybe Christ will give you grace to see.

The only mention of who sent snakes in the Old Testament is YHWH. Jesus is not YHWH.

Have you ever asked the Father in prayer if there is a Trinity? If you're open to it then God can work with that.

 

[Keiw1]

John 8:56–59 (ESV) — 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

This is yet another argument for the pre-existance of Christ before becoming as man

The Jews stated you are not yet 50 years old

So chronology is an issue

The clear implication he was not old enough to have seen Abraham

But Jesus shows before Abraham he had existence

He is the firstborn of all creation, so obviously saw Abraham and all mortals ever born or made.

 

[mikesw]

The only mention of who sent snakes in the Old Testament is YHWH. Jesus is not YHWH.

Have you ever asked the Father in prayer if there is a Trinity? If you're open to it then God can work with that.

I had a time when I thought Paul was not saying Christ was of the Godhead but God corrected that. So I had been confused until God corrected me

 

[TomL]

He is the firstborn of all creation, so obviously saw Abraham and all mortals ever born or made.

As he created all things and nothing was made without him, he could not be a creation

 

[Runningman]

I had a time when I thought Paul was not saying Christ was of the Godhead but God corrected that. So I had been confused until God corrected me

Ok, but the manuscripts have variations and they have clearly been fiddled with a lot over the years. To just say it’s the oldest manuscript isn’t really a point because the Old Testament scriptures are older.

Think about what site you’re in now. The Bereans, yes? Search the Scriptures, then, to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

Christ pre-existing in the Old Testament is an easily debunked myth.

 

[civic]

Then why do you reject the plain words of Jesus who said the Father is the only true God in John 17:1-3? Is english your first language, care to look at a dictionary or lexicon? It won't hurt you to confess the truth, I promise. Please tell us what the word "Only" means.


John 17 (NIV)
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

why do you reject Jesus words 2 verses after in 17:5 that He was with the Father before creation ?

next fallacy

btw why do you reject Johns inspired words in 1 jn 5:20 where He identifies Jesus as the True God and eternal life ?

is English your first language ?

care to look at a lexicon ?

it won't hurt you to confess like John, Peter, Paul and Thomas that Christ is God.

Jesus is called only Savior, Lord, Sovereign.

tell us what only means.

next fallacy

hope this helps !!!

 

[mikesw]

Ok, but the manuscripts have variations and they have clearly been fiddled with a lot over the years. To just say it’s the oldest manuscript isn’t really a point because the Old Testament scriptures are older.

Think about what site you’re in now. The Bereans, yes? Search the Scriptures, then, to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

Christ pre-existing in the Old Testament is an easily debunked myth.

You then are denying what scholars and commentators have held. You are basically going into court and saying "do not follow the majority of evidence, follow what i believe." and if Christ's deity were easily debunked, it would not have taken hold. We are waiting for you to debunk Christ's nature in the Godhead.

 

[TomL]

Ok, but the manuscripts have variations and they have clearly been fiddled with a lot over the years. To just say it’s the oldest manuscript isn’t really a point because the Old Testament scriptures are older.

Think about what site you’re in now. The Bereans, yes? Search the Scriptures, then, to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

Christ pre-existing in the Old Testament is an easily debunked myth.

Not if one follows scripture, But of course you do not

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

and you still cannot rebut

1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

and

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.



scripture refutes your false claim

 

[Runningman]

Not if one follows scripture, But of course you do not

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

and you still cannot rebut

1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

and

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.



scripture refutes your false claim

You’ve been overruled by the oldest manuscripts on the topic. Let me know when you find Christ in the Old Testament doing anything. You will be the first.

 

[TomL]

You’ve been overruled by the oldest manuscripts on the topic. Let me know when you find Christ in the Old Testament doing anything. You will be the first.

Yet another false claim and continued ignoring of arguments

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

and you still cannot rebut

1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

and

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.



scripture refutes your false claim

 

[Runningman]

Yet another false claim and continued ignoring of arguments

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

and you still cannot rebut

1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

and

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.



scripture refutes your false claim

We have you on record bearing false witness against Scripture now at this point. Your heresies seem to know no bounds. The Christ didn’t exist until after his birth according to Scripture. Check mate.

 

[TomL]

Then why do you reject the plain words of Jesus who said the Father is the only true God in John 17:1-3? Is english your first language, care to look at a dictionary or lexicon? It won't hurt you to confess the truth, I promise. Please tell us what the word "Only" means.


John 17 (NIV)
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Because he did not say only the father is the only true God

You are assuming only one person can be God begging the question and ignoring scripture

 

[Runningman]

Because he did not say only the father is the only true God

You are assuming only one person can be God begging the question and ignoring scripture

So for the record you don’t believe the Father is the ONLY true God? John 17:1-3 says He is. What’s your beef the Father’s exclusive and sole deity?

 

[Runningman]

Because he did not say only the father is the only true God

You are assuming only one person can be God begging the question and ignoring scripture

This is rich. In some venues there would be laughter and tomatoes. Keep the laughs coming.

 

[TomL]

We have you on record bearing false witness against Scripture now at this point. Your heresies seem to know no bounds. The Christ didn’t exist until after his birth according to Scripture. Check mate.

You cannot support that claim with evidence. And your scripture denying claims are of no value

You fail to rebut the evidence below

Yet another false claim and continued ignoring of arguments

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

and you still cannot rebut

1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

and

1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.



scripture refutes your false claim

 

[TomL]

This is rich. In some venues there would be laughter and tomatoes. Keep the laughs coming.

But you did nothing at all to prove it wrong

Aside from the New testament which terms the Word/Christ God

There are also New testament scriptures which speak of Christ when the old testament reference speaks of God and YHWH

The angel of the lord in the Old testament is called God and YHWH

There are a number of examples which have been posted which you never address