One cannot have the gifts of the Spirit given to the church and not be part of the church.
Baptism "en" the Holy Ghost
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
One cannot have the gifts of the Spirit given to the church and not be part of the church.
Not according to scripture
Acts 10:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
The spirit was received before water baptism
Doug Brents
Well-known member
That the Spirit was received before water baptism is not being discussed, it is a given there in Scripture. What part of the Spirit was received, that is what we are discussing.
The indwelling is not referenced in Acts 10:47. "Just as we did" (in tongues of fire and power) is referencing back to the upper room on Pentecost where the Apostles (who already had the indwelling) received the gifts of tongues, wisdom, and miraculous power from the Holy Spirit. And the Gentiles received the same miraculous gifts from the Spirit before they received the indwelling in baptism.
What part of the Spirit?
Are you now cutting the spirit up in parts?
Newsflash gifts are not a part of the Spirit and receiving the spirit speaks of receiving the Spirit himself, not a supernatural gift
Acts 10:44–47 (KJV 1900) — 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
you assume without evidence that if a supernatural manifestation is involved it was not a result of the spirit indwelling them
again they received the Spirit not some imaginary part of the spirit which is a supernatural gift
This is total nonsense.
When Peter recounted (twice) the conversion of these Gentiles he always mentioned their reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:15-17; 15:8). Luke never records him following this up by mentioning their water baptism. Indeed, if it was only the Gentiles being empowered by the Spirit - meaning they were still unsaved - Peter never goes on into any more detail about their so-called real conversion that later took place. This is because once those listening heard that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles that was all that was needed to prove these Gentiles were Christians.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You can believe that if you want, but it does not fit the Biblical narrative. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is for those who are "in Christ", and Cornelius was not yet "in Christ" because he had not yet been baptized (in water) into Christ (Gal 3:27, Eph 5:25-27). Show me any other person or group who has been "baptized in the Spirit" in tongues of fire and miracles as they were on Pentecost and Cornelius was. It has not happened since.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
He doesn't need to go on to explain that they were baptized into Christ immediately following the reception of tongues and praise from the Spirit. Everyone in the Church in the first century knew that salvation occurred at water baptism. It was not a debate among them as to when Cornelius was saved: he was saved when he was baptized in water into Christ (Gal 3:27, Eph 5:25-27) and his sins were washed away (cut from him) (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).
That's a ridiculous request because not all have the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30).
But if one did have this particular gift then he/she is "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I am not asking for you to show me someone with the gift of tongues. I am asking you to show me another example of someone who was baptized in fire as they were on Pentecost, and Cornelius was.
But he did make it a clear point (twice) that the Spirit was received.
That's your heresy. Not theirs.
Nothing from either Acts 11 or 15 follows up the mention of the reception with the Holy Spirit with:
1. The real reception of the Holy Spirit - not just the empowerment which is part of your myth.
2. Their water baptism.
The Holy Spirit (Acts 11)
The Holy Spirit (Acts 15)
Water baptism (not mentioned in Acts 11)
Water baptism (not mentioned in Acts 15)
The Holy Spirit is the focus because He is God. You make physical water your focus because it is your god.
Where does it say the Gentiles were baptized in fire?
Sorry your claim about spiritual gifts and being a part of the Spirit was nonsensde
What part of the Spirit?
Are you now cutting the spirit up in parts?
Newsflash gifts are not a part of the Spirit and receiving the spirit speaks of receiving the Spirit himself, not a supernatural gift
Acts 10:44–47 (KJV 1900) — 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
you assume without evidence that if a supernatural manifestation is involved it was not a result of the spirit indwelling them
again they received the Spirit not some imaginary part of the spirit which is a supernatural gift
He believes they were just empowered by the Spirit which is absolute nonsense.
Yes it is but he went even further and tried to claim they received a part of the Spirit which was quite bizarre
Heresy always descends.
Yes, that is true. One must go further and further to defend their false view
Sometimes I just let them keep talking (or, writing). This way their position looks even worse.
good tactic
101G
Well-known member
nonsense, the baptism "of" the Holy Spirit places one into the Body of Christ. the Baptism "WITH" the Holy Spirit empowers the believers with Gifts.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
to all,
the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus outpouring of his Spirit on the Bilievers and in the believers for salvation, and the Work in that salvation. when he returned in Spirit on Pentecost, he not only Gave himself as the promise our seal of redemption. but also empowered the believer for the work of the church.
101G.
the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus outpouring of his Spirit on the Bilievers and in the believers for salvation, and the Work in that salvation. when he returned in Spirit on Pentecost, he not only Gave himself as the promise our seal of redemption. but also empowered the believer for the work of the church.
101G.
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