Baptism "en" the Holy Ghost

[Red Baker]

Cornelius feared God before he met Peter.

This proves he had eternal life already. The Holy Spirit testified that Cornelius indeed feared God (Acts 10:2 compared to 10:35). Unregenerate men in a state of sin do not fear God at all (Romans 3:18 compared to 3:9-18). All men by nature are fools, and they do not fear God or seek God (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Titus 3:3) Wicked men sin without regard for offending God, proving their lack of fear (Ps 36:1; Lu 23:40). God must totally change a man’s heart before he will fear God (Psalm 10:4; 55:19; 65:4; 110:3). God’s covenant, which is the basis of salvation, is with those that fear him (Ps 25:14; Luke 1:50). God has promised well to those that fear him, but not to the wicked (Ecclesiastes 7:18; 8:12-13). The wicked profanely reject the knowledge God does send them (Rom 1:20-28; Eph 4:17-19). Cornelius feared God, and so did his whole house, which says much about all parties (Ps 34:11).

Cornelius gave alms before he met Peter.

This proves he had eternal life already. Let God be true! The Holy Spirit testified that Cornelius gave alms – gifts to the poor – to the people (Acts 10:2) God not only acknowledged the alms: He also accepted and approved them (Acts 10:4,31,35). God does not accept the sacrifices of the wicked, no matter what they do (Prov 15:8; 21:4,27). It is an undefiled man with pure religion that gives godly alms to the people (Jas 1:27; Ps 41:1). The righteous are contrasted from the wicked by their consideration of the poor (Prov 19:7). Giving alms is the act of a man whose righteousness is forever (Psalm 112:9-10; II Cor 9:9). Willingness to distribute allows the rich to lay hold on, or confirm, eternal life (I Tim 6:17-19).

Cornelius prayed always before he met Peter.

This proves he had eternal life. Let God be true! The Holy Spirit Himself testified that Cornelius indeed prayed to God always (Acts 10:2). God acknowledged that the prayers were accepted and approved before Him (Acts 10:4,31,35). God hears the prayer of the righteous, but not the prayers of the wicked (Pr 15:8,29; John 9:31). The Lord sees and hears the righteous, but His face is against evildoers (Ps 34:11-18; I Pet 3:12). Unregenerate men in sin do not seek after God, yet Cornelius did (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Rom 3:11). Unregenerate men do not have any desire or time for God, but Cornelius did (Ps 10:4; Gen 6:5). The manmade idea of a “sinners’ prayer” as the request of a lost soul for regeneration is totally ludicrous, for no unregenerate man can or would pray sincerely, and God would not hear him!

Cornelius did righteousness before he met Peter.

This proves he had eternal life. Let God be true! Fearing God, giving approved alms, and praying always are all parts of working righteousness. Peter perceived and acknowledged this when he first encountered Cornelius (Acts 10:34-35). There is no natural man that is righteous or good, no, not one (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Romans 3:10). A man doing righteousness is a born again, righteous man (I John 2:29; 3:7,10; III John 1:11). Good works are the certain evidence of eternal life (Matthew 7:21; Eph 2:10; James 2:14-26). It is an absurd proposal that a man approved by the Holy Spirit as fearing God and working righteousness was still in desperate need to be saved! Let God be true, but every man a liar!

Cornelius was accepted by God before meeting Peter.

He already had eternal life! Peter perceived and acknowledged that Cornelius was already accepted with God [perfect tense, passive voice], by virtue of his present actions of fearing and working (Acts 10:34-35).

Doug, do you grasp the order of events in these words, “A man that breathes and talks well is resuscitated”? If you have a Th.D., you will not know which event came first in these words.

God accepts those elected and predestinated in Jesus Christ the beloved (Ephesians 1:3-6), which is the acceptation that counts, since nowhere is eternal life dependent on our accepting Christ.

The key in eternal life and salvation that God knows and accepts us (Gal 4:9; II Cor 5:9-11).

It is near blasphemy to think or say God accepted a wicked man, for the holy God of the Bible cannot and will not do such (Ex 34:7; Ps 7:11; 82:2; Pr 18:5; Hab 1:13; Nah 1:3; Matt 7:21).

God had already planned, paid for, and applied righteousness to Cornelius through Jesus Christ; God was reconciled toward him; he needed the news to believe it himself (II Cor 5:18-21). God had already worked in Cornelius to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13; Eph 2:10).

​

His Need for Peter is another subject for another day.​

 

[Red Baker]

We receive the indwelling of the Spirit during water baptism. The baptism that saves (in which our sins are forgiven) is water baptism, as 1 Pet 3:21 makes clear.

Let us discuss this most importance scripture in the NT on water baptism~I'll be back later.

 

[Doug Brents]

Baptism is the introduction of one thing to another that the one may receive the influence of the other

Water will get you wet and nothing else.

It does not regenerate.

It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, during water baptism, the soul of those who believe the Gospel. It is pure defiance of God to say otherwise.

Without this indwelling Spirit, you do not belong to Christ

Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

And when does the indwelling begin? During water baptism (Col 2:13, Rom 6:3-4), for that is when our sins are removed (Col 2:11), we die to sin (Rom 6:2-3, 6-7), are resurrected with Christ (Col 2:13), and are added to the Church (1 Cor 12:12-14).

It is a simple fact men have been baptized en the spirit before and/or after water baptism

Your opinion is noted, but it is not supported by Scripture.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, these words of yours are full of errors, and for me to fully expose them each, would take more posts than I desire to do with you, yet I will say a few words~few for me, since I admit, I'm a little long winded, because I labor to make clear what the scriptures teach and do not teach, on the subject under consideration, mainly for any young believer that may be following what is posted, and for the few, who truly desire to test their doctrine with the word of God.

One truth is consistent throughout Scripture~You said:

Doug, no they did not~Cornelius was regenerated before Peter ever arrived!

We can stop right here and go no further with your post. This is completely and utterly nonsensical. What does the Word say?
Acts 11:14 - "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."
How can they have been saved before Peter even arrived, if Peter was to speak words to them by which they would be saved? They could not then be saved before he spoke the words, if it is by the words that they would be saved. You allow your preconceptions to run away with you and lead you to false assertions.

 

[Red Baker]

1st Peter 3:21~The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

The like figure.................................​

There are two figures or pictures here – the ark in the previous verse, baptism in this verse. A figure is a symbolic picture representing something in reality (Romans 5:14; Heb 9:9). The adjective like indicates the figure of baptism is similar to another figure in context. The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two things being considered. Noah’s ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. Most translations and commentators have only one figure – the ark is a figure of baptism! They have a vested interest in baptism not being a figure – for most are baby sprinklers.

There are five requirements for a scriptural baptism, and this one verse teaches three of them. The three requirements taught here are the proper subject, mode, and design of baptism. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements.

Around 90-95% of all so-called Christians cannot learn baptism’s three requirements.

It is amazing to read works on baptism that do not mention this verse or quite neglect it. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Why cannot 90-95% see this simple truth? Tradition above scripture; they will not be fools for Jesus; the truth is for few, like 8 in context; God sends delusion (2nd Thes 2:9-12).

Whereunto even baptism...............................​

Having introduced Noah and the ark for several reasons, Peter applied its figure to baptism. To this point in Ist Peter 3:18-22, no reader could know where he was going until these words.

Doth also now save us.....................................​

The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two figures are being considered. The ark literally saved from water; Jesus literally saved His elect from the second death. The ark figuratively saved by figuring Jesus; baptism figuratively saves by figuring Jesus.

How does baptism save? It saves figuratively, because baptism has been defined as a figure.

There is real salvation in Jesus Christ’s resurrection mentioned in this verse (Rom 4:25). Baptism pictures that resurrection in a figure by its burial and rising again from water. There is no real saving efficacy, power, value in baptism, for the next clause confirms it. When the Bible says baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16), it only does so figuratively. A good conscience answering God in baptism is evidence of eternal life (Mark 16:16). The will and works of man are entirely rejected as having any role in eternal life whatsoever.

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh..................................................​

A very damning and destructive heresy in church history is the premise that baptism saves. Once you accept this premise for your reasoning, then you will corrupt much more truth. Since water may not be available for an immersion, you will invent sprinkling or pouring. Since many died in infancy, heretics comforted mothers by baptizing their babies, and the consistent Presbyterians doing this will also stuff the Lord’s Supper in their little mouths. Since infants miscarry, and they hold to original sin, they also use intrauterine baptism. Since Campbellites baptize believers, they deny original sin for the age of accountability. Since Mormons require a Mormon baptism, they invented baptism for dead relatives. Baptismal regeneration or salvation is a terrible lie that has corrupted “Christianity.”

Modern translations and commentators show a profane perversity by corrupting this point. They must at all costs maintain the RCC heresy and premise that baptism saves the soul. Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden. They change the words filth of the flesh … to … dirt of the body in words or meaning. The terms here define, demand, and prove design of water baptism – no means of salvation.

Water baptism does not remove or take away sins or sin nature in any literal or real way. This jewel of a text should be memorized by every Baptist child to protect against heresy.

Remember, this definitive baptism text began by declaring it was a figurative ordinance! A figurative ordinance does not have saving efficacy in any literal or real way. Grasp it!

What is the filth of the flesh not? It is not a dirty body as Campbellites and others hallucinate. It is not the dirt of the body, because no convert in human history has ever thought such. It is not the dirt of the body, because the good conscience here is about sin and salvation. It is not the dirt of the body, because baptism is for repentance of sins, not a dirty body. Filth of the flesh is not bodily dirt, or we would have to hold bathtub holiness (II Co 7:1)!

What is the filth of the flesh here? It is the sins and or the sin nature of man’s fleshly nature. It is the sins and sinfulness of man resulting from the lusts of his flesh in context (2:11). It is the sins and sinfulness of man that will sink his soul into eternal torment (Re 22:11). The Greek filth here, rhupos (#4510) or rhupoo (#4909), is only used these three times. Peter further defined and explained in his second epistle about the flesh (II Pet 2:10,18). Paul defined and explained about the flesh as sins to be forgiven by Christ (Col 2:11,13). Jude used filthy, italicized preserved interpolation, for sinful, wicked dreams (Jude 1:8). Baptism does not put away sin, sins, or sin nature, and any thought to the contrary is heresy.

Baptism only saves figuratively, which is the premise on which this entire verse is built. Baptism is by those with good consciences, which can only come after regeneration! Putting away sins was by the finished work of Christ (John 19:30; Heb 1:3; 10:10-14). Man’s will or works, even righteous works, are rejected (Tit 3:5; Jn 1:13; Rom 9:15-16). Born of water and washing of regeneration intend Spirit action (Jn 3:5; 7:37-39; Tit 3:5).

But the answer of a good conscience toward God...........................................................​

Because of their false premise that baptism saves, 90-95% of “Christians” baptize infants. They have absolutely no Bible basis for any infant ever being baptized by the apostles. Infants do not have an active conscience, nor can they express themselves toward God. Their consciences cannot, do not, and will not ever come close to believing or answering. So the RCC and others invent godparents to answer for the infants … defying John 1:13! So the RCC and others invent confirmation to get an answer later … defying Acts 8:37!

The terms here define, demand, and prove the subject of baptism – a regenerated believer. Water baptism requires a conscience – consciousness of right and wrong; infants flunk. The issue at stake in salvation is a conscience understanding guilt and forgiveness of sin. This conscience can declare repudiation of past sins and commit to a life of discipleship. An infant can never do these things, and others cannot do them for an infant (John 1:13). Thus, Baptists have traditionally referred to water baptism as believer’s baptism. Amen!

The condition for baptism is a good conscience, which requires maturity and regeneration! A bad conscience is under condemnation and guilt of sin without remedy (Heb 10:1-3). A good conscience must hear and believe the true gospel of forgiveness and justification. It must make a conscious choice itself, which some did and some did not (Luke 7:29-30). A man not born again is dead in sins with a wicked conscience (Rom 8:7-8; Eph 2:1-3).

Water baptism is the answer of that good conscience to God for sending Jesus Christ for it. Baptism is not a bad conscience asking for God to save it by water for it to become good. Baptism is the individual ordinance of a person thanking God for saving by Jesus’ death. When one hears and believes the gospel, it purges the conscience for baptism (Heb 9:14). The fabulous news of Jesus Christ’s finished work clears the conscience (Heb 10:19-22). Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden. They alter answer of a good conscience … to … appeal or request in words or meaning.

Because Philip required the Ethiopian to believe first, they delete Acts 8:37 altogether! Discipleship is required in baptism, which precludes or warns about baptizing little children. More is required than faith in Jesus, for commitment to a new life is included (Ro 6:3-5). John required works meet for repentance when Pharisees came to his baptism (Matt 3:8).

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ...........................................​

Proper baptism, burial and resurrection in water, is a figurative picture of Jesus’ resurrection. The connection here defines, demands, and proves the mode of water baptism – immersion. Baptism must be a figure of salvation in Jesus Christ, for that is what is written thus far. Baptism must be a figure of Jesus Christ’s resurrection by connection to this last phrase. Only baptism by immersion has a figure or picture of any kind at all of body resurrection. The Bible’s one Author, the Holy Spirit, confirms this in Romans 6:3-5 and I Cor 15:29. If you do not see baptism must show resurrection, you cannot handle I Corinthians 15:29!

 

[Red Baker]

We can stop right here and go no further with your post. This is completely and utterly nonsensical. What does the Word say?
Acts 11:14 - "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."
How can they have been saved before Peter even arrived, if Peter was to speak words to them by which they would be saved? They could not then be saved before he spoke the words, if it is by the words that they would be saved. You allow your preconceptions to run away with you and lead you to false assertions.

I'll be back and address this verse~do you think that I dd not know it was there? Of course I did. I also understand the sense in which we must understand this verse.

 

[Red Baker]

How can they have been saved before Peter even arrived, if Peter was to speak words to them by which they would be saved?

Asking thsi question is showing your biblical ignorance~no pun intended, but truth is truth.

I have a meeting be back soon.

 

[Doug Brents]

The like figure.................................​

There are two figures or pictures here – the ark in the previous verse, baptism in this verse. A figure is a symbolic picture representing something in reality (Romans 5:14; Heb 9:9). The adjective like indicates the figure of baptism is similar to another figure in context. The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two things being considered. Noah’s ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. Most translations and commentators have only one figure – the ark is a figure of baptism! They have a vested interest in baptism not being a figure – for most are baby sprinklers.

There is only one figure and one reality. Just as the Passover was the figure of the real found in communion, and the temple is the figure of the real found in Heaven, so too the Flood was a figure of of the real found in baptism.

 

[Red Baker]

We can stop right here and go no further with your post.

Doug, I'm sure you desire for me to stop, but I have a few more post to make in order to answer what you have posted. If I didn't answer, you would find fault with me, so, be patience, and refute what I will say, if you think you can, but, I have my doubts that you can~for I have battled with baptismal generational folks for years.

This is completely and utterly nonsensical.

Only to those who have no understanding of how certain words are used in the scriptures. You folks go after soundbites~true men of God read the word of God distinctly, and then give the proper sense to what they are reading, so that they can understand the scriptures. See Nehemiah 8:8. We follow Ezra ~ you follow your teachers who are blind, leading others who are blind~and you know the results of such leading, both will fall into the ditch of errors.

What does the Word say?

Let us see.......

Acts 11:14 - "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."

They could not then be saved before he spoke the words, if it is by the words that they would be saved.

Amen! Did you not read what I said above?

Peter brought the gospel to save Cornelius from despair over his sins (Luke 7:36-50; Rom 7:24-25), from Jewish ignorance of salvation (Rom 10:1-5), from Roman idolatry and superstition (Ist Thess 1:9-10), from ignorance about life and immortality (2nd Tim 1:9-10), and from confusion about the resurrection (Ist Cor 15:2). He needed to learn the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:24-28), and how to prove his election (2nd Pet 1:5-11), including that repentance, baptism, etc. (Acts 2:37-47).

Doug, save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the word of God, very seldom used in the sense of being saved from sin and condemnation the "only" sense most apply the words to.

The gospel does not bring life to men dead in trespasses and sins, it bring to light where there is life! Proof?

2nd Timothy 1:9,10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

The gospel is the source of information for those who have been given eternal life by the Spirit of the Living God! Listen to these verses carefully:

Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The gospel when preached in truth, is the power of God only to those that believes, to those that perish in their sins, it is pure foolishness. That's only part of what Paul is truly saying, listen carefully: "for it is the power of God unto salvation" what salvation is Paul speaking about that only profits believers? A salvation from ignorance to understanding! Verse 17 adds more to what verse 16 is saying. The gospel can only bring this salvation from a person who has faith to another person who has faith~impossible to reveal truth to those not born of God, impossible. Only those few who have God given faith can truly see the the righteousness of God provided and secured by Jesus Christ in the gospel, they see the wisdom and power of God in the pure gospel that is revealed in the scriptures ~ these are some of the truths Peter brought to Cornelius and his household. God regenerates by his power, and uses men to instruction, impart true biblical knowledge to his elect through the preaching of Jesus Christ~but. spiritual life must first be imparted to sinners, before they can hear, see, and understand.

You allow your preconceptions to run away with you and lead you to false assertions.

No Doug, I allowed the scriptures to speak for themselves without me forcing my preconceived teachings on them.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, I'm sure you desire for me to stop,

Not at all. I just wish you would faithfully adhere to Scriptural truth, instead of making stuff up as you go.

but I have a few more post to make in order to answer what you have posted. If I didn't answer, you would find fault with me, so, be patience, and refute what I will say, if you think you can, but, I have my doubts that you can~for I have battled with baptismal generational folks for years.

Only to those who have no understanding of how certain words are used in the scriptures. You folks go after soundbites~true men of God read the word of God distinctly, and then give the proper sense to what they are reading, so that they can understand the scriptures. See Nehemiah 8:8. We follow Ezra ~ you follow your teachers who are blind, leading others who are blind~and you know the results of such leading, both will fall into the ditch of errors.


Let us see.......
Amen! Did you not read what I said above?

Yes, I did. You said that:

Cornelius was regenerated before Peter ever arrived!

Peter did not speak the words by which Cornelius was saved until after he arrived, so Cornelius could not have been saved "before Peter ever arrived!"

Doug, save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the word of God, very seldom used in the sense of being saved from sin and condemnation the "only" sense most apply the words to.

Ahh, some things make sense now. Once in a while Scripture talks about being saved from something other than sin and condemnation, but in most cases it is sin from which we are saved. It is sin from which the blood of Jesus washes (saves) us (John 1:7). It is sin from which we are saved when we are washed in baptism (1 Pet 3:21).

The gospel does not bring life to men dead in trespasses and sins, it bring to light where there is life! Proof?

The Gospel most certainly does bring life to men dead in trespasses and sin (2 Thes 2:14, Rom 1:16). The Gospel is the good news of Jesus life, death, resurrection and triumph over sin and death (1 Cor 15:1-4). The Gospel, when believed and acted upon, saves us from sin by bringing us to Jesus' cleansing blood.

The gospel is the source of information for those who have been given eternal life by the Spirit of the Living God! Listen to these verses carefully:

The Gospel is not just the source of information. You are making "Gospel" into an entity, just as some do with "grace". You misunderstand the word by making it one particular thing. Grace is nothing more than a gift. The Gospel is the good news about Jesus, and what He did for us. There is power in the Gospel because there is power in Jesus' blood.

The gospel when preached in truth, is the power of God only to those that believes, to those that perish in their sins, it is pure foolishness.

The Gospel is power to those who believe what is told them (meaning that it brings to them the power of Jesus' blood). They are not saved before they hear the Gospel, they are saved when they hear it, believe it, and act upon it.

That's only part of what Paul is truly saying, listen carefully: "for it is the power of God unto salvation" what salvation is Paul speaking about that only profits believers? A salvation from ignorance to understanding! Verse 17 adds more to what verse 16 is saying. The gospel can only bring this salvation from a person who has faith to another person who has faith~impossible to reveal truth to those not born of God, impossible. Only those few who have God given faith can truly see the the righteousness of God provided and secured by Jesus Christ in the gospel, they see the wisdom and power of God in the pure gospel that is revealed in the scriptures ~ these are some of the truths Peter brought to Cornelius and his household. God regenerates by his power, and uses men to instruction, impart true biblical knowledge to his elect through the preaching of Jesus Christ~but. spiritual life must first be imparted to sinners, before they can hear, see, and understand.


No Doug, I allowed the scriptures to speak for themselves without me forcing my preconceived teachings on them.

New life is received through the teaching of the Gospel, not before it is heard. Faith comes through hearing the Gospel, not before it is heard (Rom 10:17). It is only possible to become born of God after one has heard the Gospel and obeyed it (2 Thes 1:8).

 

[Red Baker]

I just wish you would faithfully adhere to Scriptural truth, instead of making stuff up as you go.

Doug, it is you, that does not take what I presented against your doctrine, and make any attempt to disprove my rebuttal of your position and use of scriptures~maybe you do not understand how a discourse works between to opposing persons on presenting their understanding of bible doctrine, but, it is clear to anyone reading that you fail to defend your position properly, scripturally and without your opponent being able to gainsay your position. You would fail most all debate classes at most universities, and would not even be considered a worthy backup debater on most teams.

Peter did not speak the words by which Cornelius was saved until after he arrived,

Correct, in the sense in which the word saved is used in the context of Acts 10,11.

so Cornelius could not have been saved "before Peter ever arrived!"

Again, he was saved in a vital sense before he ever heard of Peter, yet not in a practical sense, of having a more perfect understanding of Jesus Christ' religion/teachings, etc. Once more let me take you to 1st Corinthians 1 the twin scriptures of Romans 1:16,17, to further show you exactly what I'm saying, for it certainly is not registering with you, because thsi truth is hidden from you at the moment, maybe will be forever.

1st Corinthians 1:18-21~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Follow closely, please Paul's teaching, not mine, but his. Here is exactly what Paul is saying, regardless, if you see this blessed truth or not:

1. Two groups of people those that are saved (here it is used in a vital sense, meaning born again) and those that perish'

2. To those that perish, the gospel is foolishness, below their so-called wisdom to accept, and believe and to commit their life to with all of their heart, soul and mind. They truly believe they are above in believing in such foolishness.

3. "But" unto us which are saved we see the gospel as the wisdom and power of God in saving his people from their sins, we love it, submit to, and give our life in holding fast to its truths. Bu ther eis what I desire for you to see:

4. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching "to save" them that believe. Doug, notice the words in the red~God has chosen the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe! Do you hear what Paul is saying, I think not at the moment, or else, you would submit to this truth. Believers need a salvation (or, conversion) as long as they live in this body of sin and death, a salvation from ignorance to a more perfectly understanding of the truth, this is a lifelong process, that will never cease as long as we live.

Ahh, some things make sense now. Once in a while Scripture talks about being saved from something other than sin and condemnation, but in most cases it is sin from which we are saved.

Once in a while? No Doug, quite often. I will take time if you desire me to do so, to prove this.

t is sin from which the blood of Jesus washes (saves) us

Agree, and stop and think for a minute~ if this is true, and it is, (Acts 20:28; Romans 5:9; Revelation 1:5; etc.) then nothing we can do adds to what Christ's life, and death, (shedding of his blood) and his resurrection from the dead did to secured our salvation from sin and condemnation and giving us the gift of eternal life, based upon his obedience not ours.

Coming back keep from making a small booklet for you to consider. I now see how the old divines wrote so much covering a single truth, it is not easy to say things properly in a few words.

 

[TomL]

It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, during water baptism, the soul of those who believe the Gospel. It is pure defiance of God to say otherwise.

It is indeed the Holy Spirit who regenerates and he does not need water to do so

Cornelius was baptized en the Spirit previous to water baptism

Acts 11:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


The Samaritans water baptized but not baptized en/had not received the Spirit

Acts 8:5–17 (KJV 1900) — 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.



i

And when does the indwelling begin? During water baptism (Col 2:13, Rom 6:3-4), for that is when our sins are removed (Col 2:11), we die to sin (Rom 6:2-3, 6-7), are resurrected with Christ (Col 2:13), and are added to the Church (1 Cor 12:12-14).

Your opinion is noted, but it is not supported by Scripture.

Um there is no water in Rom 6

There is baptism into Christ, baptism into death but no baptism into water

Actually that phrase exists nowhere in the bible

You insert the word water but Christ baptizes en the Holy Ghost

same with col 2:11

it is the real baptism en the holy Ghost which accomplishes all those things

Water symbolizes moral purity of one who has repented and been cleansed/regenerated by the Spirit





r

 

[TomL]

Cornelius feared God before he met Peter.

This proves he had eternal life already.

Er scripture refutes your claim

Acts 11:9–14 (KJV 1900) — 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. 12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

 

[Red Baker]

Er scripture refutes your claim

Acts 11:9–14 (KJV 1900) — 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. 12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Tom, you are wrong, the scriptures will support our teaching, go back and read #251 and refute what I said there with scriptures.

I did not go in depth on Acts 10 on purpose in order to save me some extra ammunition, but can, to prove that God accepted Cornelius before Peter ever arrived. If you would like me to do so, I will before you address #251.

I also desire to consider with you your doctrine of baptism of the Spirit, that you seem to apply to Romans 6; 1st Corinthians 12:13; etc. , where there (Romans 6) it is water baptism into Jesus Christ's religion/faith/teachings, etc. The one and only baptism in the religion of Jesus Christ~regardless what the Pentecostals think and teach.

 

[TomL]

Tom, you are wrong, the scriptures will support our teaching, go back and read #251 and refute what I said there with scriptures.

I did not go in depth on Acts 10 on purpose in order to save me some extra ammunition, but can, to prove that God accepted Cornelius before Peter ever arrived. If you would like me to do so, I will before you address #251.

I also desire to consider with you your doctrine of baptism of the Spirit, that you seem to apply to Romans 6; 1st Corinthians 12:13; etc. , where there (Romans 6) it is water baptism into Jesus Christ's religion/faith/teachings, etc. The one and only baptism in the religion of Jesus Christ~regardless what the Pentecostals think and teach.

Sorry you failed to address this

Acts 11:12–14 (ESV) — 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

The angel would hardly tell a saved man he would hear a message by which he will be saved

Again water is not mentioned in Rom 6

From the Graves - Ditzler debate

He appealed to Romans 6:3, 4, 5, and fought it desperately to hold the fort, as here was the Gibraltar of their views. But we showed that it was spiritual engrafting, as into Jesus Christ, that it was no allusion to water, or water baptism at all. So Beza, Hodge, Stuart held also. We then proved that baptized into Christ spiritually resulted in our spiritual incorporation with him, we die daily, are crucified with him, conformed to his death, which was by crucifixion; were “buried by the baptism”of the Spirit into his death, were planted, (Greek) born together, “engrafted together in the likeness of his death,” which is spiritual crucifixion. That is not a dip under water. Hence, 2 Corinthians 4:10, 11, “we who live are always delivered eis into death” by being thus crucified or engrafted together in the likeness of his death. . Graves – Ditzler debate

 

[Doug Brents]

Correct, in the sense in which the word saved is used in the context of Acts 10,11.

Again, he was saved in a vital sense before he ever heard of Peter, yet not in a practical sense, of having a more perfect understanding of Jesus Christ' religion/teachings, etc.

We are not saved by Jesus' religion/teachings. We are saved by His blood, and through relationship with Him. Cornelius did not have a relationship with Jesus before Peter brought the Gospel to him. Yes, Cornelius was a devout man, and worshiped God before Peter arrived. But he was not saved, he was not part of the Church, he was not "in Christ" until after Peter baptized him which happened after Peter spoke the Gospel to him.

Once more let me take you to 1st Corinthians 1 the twin scriptures of Romans 1:16,17, to further show you exactly what I'm saying, for it certainly is not registering with you, because thsi truth is hidden from you at the moment, maybe will be forever.

Follow closely, please Paul's teaching, not mine, but his. Here is exactly what Paul is saying, regardless, if you see this blessed truth or not:

1. Two groups of people those that are saved (here it is used in a vital sense, meaning born again) and those that perish'

2. To those that perish, the gospel is foolishness, below their so-called wisdom to accept, and believe and to commit their life to with all of their heart, soul and mind. They truly believe they are above in believing in such foolishness.

What is the cause and what is the effect here? You are interpreting this as if it is cause is their salvation (or lack thereof) and the effect is that the Gospel is foolishness. But that is backwards to what Scripture says. The real cause here is the person's belief or denial of the Gospel, and the effect is the person's salvation or lack thereof. A person is not saved, and then later told the Gospel to see how they were saved. Salvation comes through hearing and believing the Gospel (Rom 10:11-14).

3. "But" unto us which are saved we see the gospel as the wisdom and power of God in saving his people from their sins, we love it, submit to, and give our life in holding fast to its truths. Bu ther eis what I desire for you to see:

4. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching "to save" them that believe. Doug, notice the words in the red~God has chosen the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe! Do you hear what Paul is saying, I think not at the moment, or else, you would submit to this truth. Believers need a salvation (or, conversion) as long as they live in this body of sin and death, a salvation from ignorance to a more perfectly understanding of the truth, this is a lifelong process, that will never cease as long as we live.

If all you are seeking is a "salvation from ignorance" then you have missed it miserably.
Through the foolishness of preaching, those who believe the Gospel that is preached will be saved from sin and death. This is not simply salvation from ignorance, but salvation from sin, death, separation from God, and eternal damnation.

Agree, and stop and think for a minute~ if this is true, and it is, (Acts 20:28; Romans 5:9; Revelation 1:5; etc.) then nothing we can do adds to what Christ's life, and death, (shedding of his blood) and his resurrection from the dead did to secured our salvation from sin and condemnation and giving us the gift of eternal life, based upon his obedience not ours.

So tell me: did the widow add to/earn/deserve the miracle of the oil in 2 Kings 4? Did the nation of Israel add to/earn/deserve the walls of Jericho falling down? Did Naaman add to/earn/deserve cleansing from leprosy? Did the nation of Israel add to/earn/deserve being rescued from the angel of death during the tenth plague? No, none of them added to/earned/deserved any of the blessings they received. But if they had not obeyed the commands given as conditions for their receiving those blessings, they would not have received them. If the widow had not gathered enough jars she would not have received as much oil as she did. If the nation had not marched around the city as commanded the walls would not have fallen. If Naaman had not dipped, or had dipped only six times, he would not have been cleansed. If the Israelites had not put the blood on their doors their children would have died as well as the Egyptians'. Any time a conditional action is given by God for the reception of His gift, that condition does not add to/earn/deserve the blessing, but it is still required or the blessing is not received.

 

[Red Baker]

It is indeed the Holy Spirit who regenerates and he does not need water to do so

Agreed~and we will add, He does not need any means whatsoever, outside of Himself, including you or myself, even his written word, as so many vainly believe and teach that he does. Knowing this first, all that are in the flesh are at enmity against him not to mention, in bondage to sin and Satan, needing to be set free by a power greater than Satan.

Cornelius was baptized en the Spirit previous to water baptism

Tom, I agree in the sense in which those saints on the day of Pentecost were baptised by the Spirit of God. Let us consider a few things from Acts two.

But, before we start, let us see if Cornelius was a child of God with very little biblical knowledge of Jesus Christ before he ever met Peter and heard words whereby he could be saved, with a more perfect knowledge of the truth.

Read again Acts 10~which I know you know well the surface words on this section of God's word.

Following context, we know that the Holy Spirit is using the word spiritually~so, we should seek the true purpose as to why God included this in his word for our learning of coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Tom, Cornelius feared God before he met Peter. This proves he had eternal life already. The Holy Spirit testified, not me, that Cornelius indeed feared God (Acts 10:2 compared to 10:35).

Tom, unregenerate men living in the flesh do not fear God at all (Romans 3:18 compared to 3:9-18) ~impossible. You cannot prove that they do, or even can.

All men by nature are fools, and they do not fear God or seek God (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Titus 3:3)~this is God's testimony of man by nature, not mine.

Wicked men sin without regard for offending God, proving their lack of fear (Ps 36:1; Lu 23:40). God must totally change a man’s heart before he will fear God (Psalm 10:4; 55:19; 65:4; 110:3). Surely you do not disagree with God's testimony of man by nature.

God’s covenant, which is the basis of salvation, is with those that fear him (Ps 25:14; Luke 1:50). This is God's testimony, not mine. There more concerning Cornelius that we must observe.


Tom, Cornelius gave alms before he met Peter. This proves he had eternal life already. The Holy Spirit testified that Cornelius gave alms – gifts to the poor ~ to the people (Acts 10:2) But, what is important is: God not only acknowledged the alms: God also accepted and approved them (Acts 10:4,31,35).

You should agree that God does not accept the sacrifices of the wicked, no matter what they do (Proverbs 15:8; 21:4,27). It is an undefiled man with pure religion that gives godly alms to the people (James 1:27; Ps 41:1). Desiring nothing in return. The righteous are contrasted from the wicked by their consideration of the poor (Prov 19:7). Giving alms from a pure heart is the act of a man whose righteousness is forever (Psalm 112:9-10; 2nd Cor. 9:9).

Tom, Cornelius prayed always before he met Peter. This is the evidence one has eternal life. The Holy Spirit Himself testified that Cornelius indeed prayed to God always (Acts 10:2). But, what we must notice is this: God acknowledged that the prayers were accepted and approved before Him (Acts 10:4,31,35). Tom, God hears the prayer of the righteous, but not the prayers of the wicked (Pr 15:8,29; John 9:31). The Lord sees and hears the righteous, but His face is against evildoers (Ps 34:11-18; I Pet 3:12). Unregenerate men in sin do not seek after God, yet Cornelius did (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Rom 3:11). Unregenerate men do not have any desire or time for God, but Cornelius did (Ps 10:4; Gen 6:5). The manmade idea of a “sinners’ prayer” (as seen on SLB~Jimmy Swaggart's program) as the request of a lost soul for regeneration is totally ludicrous, for no unregenerate man can or would pray sincerely, and God would not hear him!

Tom, Cornelius did righteousness before he met Peter. This proves he had eternal life. Fearing God, giving approved alms, and praying always are all parts of working righteousness. Peter perceived and acknowledged this when he first encountered Cornelius (Acts 10:34-35).

There is no natural man that is righteous or good, no, not one (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Romans 3:10). As we said already above~ A man doing righteousness is a born again, righteous man (Ist John 2:29; 3:7,10; 3rd John 1:11).

Good works are the certain evidence of eternal life (Matthew 7:21; Eph 2:10; James 2:14-26). Tom, It is an absurd proposal that a man approved by the Holy Spirit as fearing God and working righteousness was still in desperate need to be saved from sin and condemnation.

Cornelius was accepted by God before meeting Peter. He already had eternal life! Tom, Peter perceived and acknowledged that Cornelius was already accepted with God [perfect tense, passive voice], by virtue of his present actions of fearing and working (Acts 10:34-35).

Now, please address these point using the word of God if you disagree.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is indeed the Holy Spirit who regenerates and he does not need water to do so

The Holy Spirit does not NEED water to regenerate us, but since God has said that it is in baptism that we are regenerated, that is when it happens.

Cornelius was baptized en the Spirit previous to water baptism

Acts 11:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Cornelius received the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit "just as [the Apostles] did at the beginning". He did not receive the indwelling, because that is only for those who are a part of the Church/who have had their sins washed away/who are "in Christ". And Cornelius did not receive forgiveness of his sins until he was baptized in water as is demonstrated in many other Scriptures that we have already been over.

The Samaritans water baptized but not baptized en/had not received the Spirit

Acts 8:5–17 (KJV 1900) — 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

The Samaritans had the indwelling of the Spirit, but the Spirit had not fallen on them in power (because the ability to transfer the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit seems only to have been an ability of the Apostles, and Philip was not an Apostle). All who are in Christ have the indwelling (Rom 8:9-11, 1 Corinthians 6:19–20), but not all who are in Christ have miraculous power or other outward signs of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:7-11).

Um there is no water in Rom 6
There is baptism into Christ, baptism into death but no baptism into water

Baptism in water is the ONE baptism (Eph 4:5-6) in the NT Church, as demonstrated in Acts 8:36, Acts 10:47, and 1 Pet 3:21.

Actually that phrase exists nowhere in the bible

What phrase?

You insert the word water but Christ baptizes en the Holy Ghost

same with col 2:11

it is the real baptism en the holy Ghost which accomplishes all those things

Water symbolizes moral purity of one who has repented and been cleansed/regenerated by the Spirit

I did add the word water, because it is the mode and form of baptism by which many other Scriptures say we are saved. The "baptism en the Holy Spirit" (as you like to say) occurs DURING water baptism.

 

[Redeemed]

This makes it really clear:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? When / how are believers baptized in the Holy Spirit?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry you failed to address this

Acts 11:12–14 (ESV) — 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

The angel would hardly tell a saved man he would hear a message by which he will be saved

No I did not failed to do so~again see post #251 you are limiting the words save/saved/salvation to one sense~a salvation from damnation to eternal life, when truly it is used very seldom in that sense, but used it is, I admit, but not in Acts 10,11.

From the Graves - Ditzler debate

He appealed to Romans 6:3, 4, 5, and fought it desperately to hold the fort, as here was the Gibraltar of their views. But we showed that it was spiritual engrafting, as into Jesus Christ, that it was no allusion to water, or water baptism at all. So Beza, Hodge, Stuart held also. We then proved that baptized into Christ spiritually resulted in our spiritual incorporation with him, we die daily, are crucified with him, conformed to his death, which was by crucifixion; were “buried by the baptism”of the Spirit into his death, were planted, (Greek) born together, “engrafted together in the likeness of his death,” which is spiritual crucifixion. That is not a dip under water. Hence, 2 Corinthians 4:10, 11, “we who live are always delivered eis into death” by being thus crucified or engrafted together in the likeness of his death. . Graves – Ditzler debate

Tom, you are quoting men who did not even believed in the one and only baptism of the NT church~immersion in water~do you truly expect them to see the truth here. I'm not doubting their salvation, but their understanding of Romans 6 is a force interpretation to avoid the question as to why themselves are submitting to true and only Christian baptism~immersion in water, that truly fits into Romans 6. Let us consider this portion of the word of God.

6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?​

Know ye not.

The knowledge Paul presumed of his audience answers the rhetorical question from verse 2, and he will explain the knowledge of baptism that he intends in the verses that follow here.

That "so many of us as were" baptized~Could only mean a personal act by them in giving a answer of a good conscience to God concerning His testimony about his Son, Jesus Christ.

All the faithful elect at Rome had been baptized, but he appeals to them as baptized believers. The words used, the context of the words, and all of Scripture demands immersion in water!

We are buried with him by immersion in a watery grave, like He was immersed in earth. We are buried with him by means of identification in a watery grave just like His burial. We are buried with him into death by means of this watery picture of burial under water. We are planted by baptism, which requires a seed being immersed under ground. We are planted in this likeness of His death, not legally, vitally, or literally in His death. You must force a so-called baptism of the Spirit, without participation of the individual.

Into Jesus Christ~Baptism clearly identifies one with Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 19:5 Gal 3:27; Ist Peter 3:21).​

Baptism clearly identifies one with His death (Colossians 2:12; Rom 6:4-5; I Cor 15:29). It is a baptism into the religion of Jesus Christ, his teaching, his Lordship, etc. It is a commitment of following him, his word and his people. It is a commitment of serving each other in the Kingdom of God's dear Son~etc., etc. It is a commitment of leaving our old life behind, and living a new life in paths that Jesus walked before us.

Presbyterians, and other daughters of Rome, will argue and fuss to get water out of this verse. Just like the men did in that debate above. They cannot allow water baptism in this passage – the demand for immersion is obvious. Therefore, they make this some vital baptism into Jesus Christ by the Spirit (I Cor 12:13).

But that text is the Spirit’s baptism of an individual into a local church (Ist Cor 12:12-27)~as explained above already.


Our baptism of identification with Jesus Christ’s is clearly related by immersion to His death. For 2000 years, the true disciples of Jesus Christ have identified themselves with His death by being buried under water by immersion as a declaration of unity in His death. Bible baptism, or immersion, declares one dead to sinful living in unity with Jesus Christ. Though our burial by baptism also involves a symbolic resurrection to walk in a new life.

6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

Therefore.

The conclusion being drawn here is by the nature of Bible baptism to that declared in verse 3. In case the Roman believers had forgotten the symbolism of baptism, Paul elaborated on it.

We are buried with him by baptism into death.

Can it be any plainer? Bible baptism, or immersion, shows a very clear picture of death and burial. Believe it! Our identification by baptism with Jesus Christ’s death should involve our own death to sin.

That like as Christ was raised up from the dead.

Burial by baptism, or immersion, into death should also involve a resurrection to a new life. Jesus was raised from His legal death to sin to a life to God’s glory in heaven above.

By the glory of the Father.

God raised Jesus from the dead, and it was by His power to do so (I Cor 6:14; II Cor 13:4). The Spirit raised Jesus from the dead according to this epistle (Rom 1:4), which is His glory. God’s power in such things is called His glorious power (Jn 11:40; Col 1:11; Matt 28:1-3; ).

​

Even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

If Jesus rose from the dead to a new life in the presence of God, we should do the same. We also should rise gloriously from our lifestyle of sin to one rather of glorious holiness.

​

6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:​

For if we have been planted together.

Paul did not assume unbaptized followers of Christ, but rather the implication or what if of their baptisms, of which all had partaken. Compare this use of if in Philippians 2:1 and I Pet 1:17. Baptism is described as a planting, which can only be satisfied with baptism by immersion. Planting, which is putting seeds in the ground, cannot be accomplished by laying a seed on pavement and sprinkling an insignificant amount of water over only a small part of it. The planting, or immersion, of baptism is again like his death, requiring a burial under water.

In the likeness of his death.

Baptism is here described as a likeness to death, which is only satisfied with immersion. If we have been properly planted like our Lord’s death, there should be a resurrection as well.

We shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

If we have been properly planted like Jesus, there should be a resurrection to holiness also. Only water baptism can satisfied these scriptures.

Spirit baptism must be forced into these scriptures~when that is done, then one is guilty of:

2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."