Are we under any covenants?

[TomL]

We have very similar beliefs about this and you made a lot of good points. The holy spirit should not be capitalized where it's a thing or gift in the context. However, God is a holy Spirit and therefore it's not wrong to call the Father Holy Spirit, which is what they did sometimes. It's clear the Holy Spirit is not a third person in Scripture any way. There are a number of valid points for this.

UM

The Holy Spirit Is God

Equated with God/the Lord: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Has the incommunicable attributes of God
Eternal: Heb. 9:14; this poses a problem for anyone suggesting that the Holy Spirit is something other than God (implies someone or something else besides God is eternal)
Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7
Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Involved in all the works of God
Creation: Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:30
Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

Is a person
Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person.
Is the "Helper"
Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.

 

[Complete]

Amen! Thank you TomL. Those powerful verses describe the true Israel of God. And to think that Jews are still under the Mosaic law directly contradicts Paul's words in those verses.

Even the Lord Himself in Jer. 31:31-32 said that the "new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, (who believing Gentiles ARE SPIRITUALLY) is NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY I TOOK THEM ... OUT OF ... EGYPT." Jews are no longer under the law of Moses. Actually, nobody is - that law ceased to exist when Jesus was crucified.

Those who don't believe that don't want one new man. They prefer that the dividing wall stay up. They prefer that the Jews and the Gentiles would forever be separated. They don't want "one body by the cross". They prefer that the Jews and the Gentiles would forever be two separate bodies. They prefer that only they have access to the Father by the Spirit. They don't want Gentiles to be fellowcitizens with them and part of the household of God. That is prejudice and racism, one of the sins that Jesus died to eradicate.

'But God forbid that I should glory,
save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by Whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision,
but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace be on them, and mercy,
and upon the Israel of God.'
(Gal 6:14-16)

Hello @dwight92070,

'The Israel of God' is the antithesis of Israel after the flesh, (1 Cor. 10:18) compare Romans 9:6, and Philippians 3:3.

Paul in Galatians 6:14-16, was asking for peace and mercy to be upon both those who walked according to the rule he had just reference: and also upon the Israel of God, which are the believing remnant of Israel.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

They're using the theological definition created by Trinitarianism. Greek isn't a secret language. It's used in the present day and the word morphe does not refer to someone's inner nature in the Greek language. You're free to plug μορφῇ into Google translate and watch it show you what the definition of it is and it refers to the shape of something.

So the distinct disadvantage that you and your theologians are at is that it's you against the world, pretty much. No one really agrees with what you're saying, anywhere, except a small group of theologians who prefer Jesus be God, but even in this case the Bible becomes your enemy. The Bible doesn't provide any consistency for your interpretation to be viable without also simultaneously proving that Jesus is not God, such as in Mark 16:12, where, by your definition, Jesus' inner nature changed and ceased being God.

So what you're providing amounts to philosophy, not Scripture.

Get real it’s the lexicons you referenced and I exposed your nonsense. I called your bluff.

Next fallacy

 

[TomL]

'But God forbid that I should glory,
save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by Whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision,
but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace be on them, and mercy,
and upon the Israel of God.'
(Gal 6:14-16)

Hello @dwight92070,

'The Israel of God' is the antithesis of Israel after the flesh, (1 Cor. 10:18) compare Romans 9:6, and Philippians 3:3.

Paul in Galatians 6:14-16, was asking for peace and mercy to be upon both those who walked according to the rule he had just reference: and also upon the Israel of God, which are the believing remnant of Israel.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes

Galatians 3:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[Runningman]

Get real it’s the lexicons you referenced and I exposed your nonsense. I called your bluff.

Next fallacy

Thank you for sharing your philosophy regarding the words you don't like in Scripture, but the Bible and dictionaries aren't your ally on this point. As far as lexicons go, I already referred to some that say that the word for form in Philippians 2:6 means the outward appearance. Your "i called your bluff" statement is equal to a strawman.

 

[Runningman]

UM

The Holy Spirit Is God

Equated with God/the Lord: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Has the incommunicable attributes of God
Eternal: Heb. 9:14; this poses a problem for anyone suggesting that the Holy Spirit is something other than God (implies someone or something else besides God is eternal)
Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7
Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Involved in all the works of God
Creation: Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:30
Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

Is a person
Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person.
Is the "Helper"
Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.

You're only proving my point for me. Did you actually read my comment? I personally believe the Holy Spirit is God the Father, who is Himself a holy Spirit. So he's Holy Spirit, not a second Holy Spirit. Therefore there isn't a Trinity.

Even the Athanasian Creed confirms this "there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits." To say otherwise would be to deny the fact the Father is a Holy Spirit not with another Holy Spirit. Otherwise, that would be at least two Holy Spirits. Boom. There is a gross error in Trinitarianism that has gone uncorrected for centuries. It's in your very creed.

On the other hand, a spirit of something isn't a person in Scripture. There is the spirit of Christ, spirit of truth, spirit of wisdom, etc. They didn't always use "spirit" in the sense English speakers tend to most commonly use it in. The spirit of something is like the breath of something. In other words, it's the life essence of something. To refer to a gift of the spirit of holiness is to say someone's is given life or breath by holiness. Study more.

 

[civic]

Thank you for sharing your philosophy regarding the words you don't like in Scripture, but the Bible and dictionaries aren't your ally on this point. As far as lexicons go, I already referred to some that say that the word for form in Philippians 2:6 means the outward appearance. Your "i called your bluff" statement is equal to a strawman.

its the biblical words you twist that the lexicons you claimed do not support your biases POV. You make up the meaning as you go along to support your erroneous doctrines about God.

 

[TomL]

You're only proving my point for me. Did you actually read my comment? I personally believe the Holy Spirit is God the Father, who is Himself a holy Spirit. So he's Holy Spirit, not a second Holy Spirit. Therefore there isn't a Trinity.

Even the Athanasian Creed confirms this "there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits." To say otherwise would be to deny the fact the Father is a Holy Spirit not with another Holy Spirit. Otherwise, that would be at least two Holy Spirits. Boom. There is a gross error in Trinitarianism that has gone uncorrected for centuries. It's in your very creed.

On the other hand, a spirit of something isn't a person in Scripture. There is the spirit of Christ, spirit of truth, spirit of wisdom, etc. They didn't always use "spirit" in the sense English speakers tend to most commonly use it in. The spirit of something is like the breath of something. In other words, it's the life essence of something. To refer to a gift of the spirit of holiness is to say someone's is given life or breath by holiness. Study more.

Except he is differentiated from the Father

The Father is not the Holy Spirit
The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

 

[Runningman]

its the biblical words you twist that the lexicons you claimed do not support your biases POV. You make up the meaning as you go along to support your erroneous doctrines about God.

The Father and the Holy Spirit never speak to each other. Ever wonder why? Think about it. Also, according to Jesus, the Holy Spirit isn't someone who knows him and the Father... hmmm that's a problem unless the Father is the Holy Spirit. It's also a problem that one can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but speaking against the Father, the only true God, doesn't even get an honorable mention... unless the Father is the Holy Spirit. Seeing it now?

No one knows the Father except the Son, and vice versa, so the Holy Spirit doesn't know the Father and Son?

Matthew 11​

27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.​

One can speak against Jesus and be forgiven, but when one speaks against God they aren't forgiven?

Matthew 12​

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.​

So the Father and Son have no idea what God is thinking, except the Spirit?

1 Cor. 2​

11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. ​

​

The Father is God who is Spirit. God is just one person.

John 4​

23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”​

 

[Peterlag]

We have very similar beliefs about this and you made a lot of good points. The holy spirit should not be capitalized where it's a thing or gift in the context. However, God is a holy Spirit and therefore it's not wrong to call the Father Holy Spirit, which is what they did sometimes. It's clear the Holy Spirit is not a third person in Scripture any way. There are a number of valid points for this.

For your enjoyment... here's some data on the trinity. https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

 

[Runningman]

For your enjoyment... here's some data on the trinity. https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

It's a good read so far. This part stuck with me:

"Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized."

I find that a bit funny. That might work in Trinitarian circles, but in the real world where Christ reigns, no. The irony is that by calling it a mystery, they confess they have no idea what they are talking about. If it's a mystery, then what are the discussing and trying to prove here? A Trinitarian discussing the Trinity comes as as disingenuous and dishonest to me. How about they just say they don't know or understand their own mysterious religion? If that's a club then they are beating themselves over the head.

I think they secretly know that the Trinity isn't a mystery, but rather completely false, which is why they are trying to defend it. It's an extremely vulnerable doctrine that has been picked apart for centuries.

 

[TomL]

The Father and the Holy Spirit never speak to each other. Ever wonder why? Think about it. Also, according to Jesus, the Holy Spirit isn't someone who knows him and the Father... hmmm that's a problem unless the Father is the Holy Spirit. It's also a problem that one can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but speaking against the Father, the only true God, doesn't even get an honorable mention... unless the Father is the Holy Spirit. Seeing it now?

No one knows the Father except the Son, and vice versa, so the Holy Spirit doesn't know the Father and Son?

Matthew 11​

27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.​

One can speak against Jesus and be forgiven, but when one speaks against God they aren't forgiven?

Matthew 12​

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.​

So the Father and Son have no idea what God is thinking, except the Spirit?

1 Cor. 2​

11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. ​

​

The Father is God who is Spirit. God is just one person.

John 4​

23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”​

Again

The Father is not the Holy Spirit


The Father sent the Holy Spirit:

John 14:15–17 (LEB) — 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us:

Romans 8:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And likewise also, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as one ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unexpressed groanings. 27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

seems the Spirit and the father do communicate


The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Peterlag]

Again

The Father is not the Holy Spirit


The Father sent the Holy Spirit:

John 14:15–17 (LEB) — 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us:

Romans 8:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And likewise also, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as one ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unexpressed groanings. 27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

seems the Spirit and the father do communicate


The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The spirit is our new nature born within us. It's not another person or another person in us.

 

[TomL]

The spirit is our new nature born within us. It's not another person or another person in us.

Um the subject is the holy Spirit

The Father sent the Holy Spirit:

John 14:15–17 (LEB) — 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us:

Romans 8:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And likewise also, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as one ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unexpressed groanings. 27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

seems the Spirit and the father do communicate


The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Runningman]

Again

The Father is not the Holy Spirit


The Father sent the Holy Spirit:

John 14:15–17 (LEB) — 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us:

Romans 8:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And likewise also, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as one ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unexpressed groanings. 27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

seems the Spirit and the father do communicate


The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

That's debatable. Please answer the questions I provided you first and/or explain them.

 

[Peterlag]

Um the subject is the holy Spirit

The Father sent the Holy Spirit:

John 14:15–17 (LEB) — 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us:

Romans 8:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And likewise also, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as one ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unexpressed groanings. 27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

seems the Spirit and the father do communicate


The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

It's not a him. The spirit is an it. Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him”because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

 

[dwight92070]

So if He was just fully man LIKE US, then why was he born unlike any other man? Why did He not have a father who was fully man LIKE US? Did your mother tell you that when you were conceived in her womb, it was actually the Holy Spirit coming upon her, and the power of the Most High (God) overshadowing her, that caused conception to take place? Did your father confide in you(when you became an adult), that he did not have sexual relations with your mom until after you were born? So that your birth was not only a miracle, but a miracle that NEVER happened before or since then, where God Himself fathered a child with a human woman.

Given that scriptural information, it is LAUGHABLE to call Jesus just fully man like the rest of us.

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[dwight92070]

It's quite telling that they don't want to touch my post. I think it's because they know they can't legitimately refute it. In fact, I've brought up the birth of Jesus before and no one touched it then either. They just ignore it, as if it's not even there. They're willing to talk about everything else, but not this. It seems as if they are afraid to be confronted with the truth.

 

[Peterlag]

So if He was just fully man LIKE US, then why was he born unlike any other man? Why did He not have a father who was fully man LIKE US? Did your mother tell you that when you were conceived in her womb, it was actually the Holy Spirit coming upon her, and the power of the Most High (God) overshadowing her, that caused conception to take place? Did your father confide in you(when you became an adult), that he did not have sexual relations with your mom until after you were born? So that your birth was not only a miracle, but a miracle that NEVER happened before or since then, where God Himself fathered a child with a human woman.

Given that scriptural information, it is LAUGHABLE to call Jesus just fully man like the rest of us.

Quote Reply
Report

Only trinity folks refer to Jesus as just a man like the rest of us or just a mere man. Guys like me never talk like that. We refer to Jesus as God's son, the Messiah, who God raised from the dead and made him both Lord and Christ.

 

[TomL]

It's not a him. The spirit is an it. Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him”because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

Not just the NAB

John 16:4–11 (KJV 1900) — 4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

John 14:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me. (John 15:26)

But Greek genders do not necessarily indicate personality. Inanimate things can have masculine and
feminine genders, and personal things can have the neuter gender.

we determine whether the Holy Spirit is personal the same way we would demonstrate that the Father or theSon is a person. Does the Spirit exhibit personality by speaking, using personal pronouns, and doing other things that only persons can do? Does the Spirit have a will? Can we insult or resist the Holy Spirit?One of the clearest indications of the personhood of the Spirit is His use of the personal pronoun in reference to himself. That is, I prove my own personhood by speaking of myself as “I” and “me.” The Spirit likewise speaks of himself in this way. When the Spirit set aside Barnabas and Saul,He did so personally:

While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them” (Acts 13:2).

While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself” (Acts 10:19–20).

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will notspeak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to youwhat is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. (John16:13–14)

Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot” (Acts 8:29).And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is whatthe Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this beltand deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles’“ (Acts 21:11).

James White- The Forgotten Trinity