I have yet to meet a Calvinist who understood what God's foreknowledge actually meant and was.
Are we Predestined?
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FreeInChrist
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brightfame52
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Predestinated to Salvation !2
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now those He foreknew [His Elect] them He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, hence they were predestinated to the Adoption of Sons Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Now in being predestinated to the image of Christ, we must be conformed to Him in spiritual qualities and principles and the frame of our hearts! All of which means, we must be saved from the penalty and power of sin, and glorified.
All this has been predestinated from before the foundation, not to all mankind, but solely to Gods Chosen, Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4-5.
So that's how we know that some men have been Chosen and Predestinated to Salvation!
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now those He foreknew [His Elect] them He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, hence they were predestinated to the Adoption of Sons Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Now in being predestinated to the image of Christ, we must be conformed to Him in spiritual qualities and principles and the frame of our hearts! All of which means, we must be saved from the penalty and power of sin, and glorified.
All this has been predestinated from before the foundation, not to all mankind, but solely to Gods Chosen, Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4-5.
So that's how we know that some men have been Chosen and Predestinated to Salvation!
FreeInChrist
Active Member
And if you read the Holy Book it is clear in the 66 books the names of those that were chosen before the foundation.
So that's how we know that some men have been Chosen and Predestinated to do the things the God chose them to do.
Even from a strong free-will perspective, the Bible explicitly teaches that God sovereignly chose and predestined specific individuals before creation (or before their birth) for particular roles in His plan ..... without violating the free choices of anyone else.
Here are the clearest verses that name individual people (not just a group) as pre-chosen for specific jobs:
| Person | Exact Bible statement | When the choice was made |
|---|---|---|
| Jeremiah | “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jer 1:5) | Before conception |
| Paul | “God, who had set me apart before I was born… called me by his grace” (Gal 1:15) “He is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name…” (Acts 9:15) | Before birth |
| Jacob (vs Esau) | “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad… she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ … Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Rom 9:11–13) | Before birth / before creation (v.11) |
| Judas | Jesus: “I chose you, the twelve… yet one of you is a devil” (John 6:70) “…that the Scripture might be fulfilled… ‘the one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me’” (John 13:18 + Ps 41:9) | Jesus sovereignly chose Judas knowing he would betray |
| The thief on the cross (indirect but clear) | Jesus personally promised him paradise that day (Luke 23:43) ..... his exact timing and place at the cross was ordained (Acts 4:27–28 – “whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place”) | Part of the predestined crucifixion plan |
| Cyrus (pagan king!) | “Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped… I call you by name… though you do not know me” (Isa 44:28–45:4) | Named 150–200 years before he was born |
| The Messiah Himself | “Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights” (Isa 42:1) “a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8 KJV/NKJV) | Before creation |
“God, in His perfect foreknowledge and sovereignty, singles out certain individuals (Jeremiah, Paul, Jacob, Cyrus, even Judas) before they are born to fulfil specific roles in His plan — while still holding every person fully responsible for their own choices.”
That view is held by millions and is 100 % biblical.
brightfame52
Active Member
I cant understand non of what you say.
dwight92070
Active Member
I agree that God predestined those who believe in Jesus will be saved. He did not choose for them.
However, Israel is no longer God's chosen people. That is referred to in Matthew 21:43:
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation, producing the fruit of it."
Who is that nation? The church, both Jew and Gentile.
Peter tells us this in 1 Peter 2:9 "But you (the church) are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession ..."
This formerly was said about Israel, but now is said about the church.
This is not anti-Semitism. This is the Bible. Obviously any Jew today can become a disciple of Jesus and will, by that decision, become part of the true Israel of God, comprised of Jews and Gentiles who follow Jesus their Messiah and our Savior.
God foreknows everything people, things, information, data, etc., etc., etc.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Do you understand this sentence?
the Bible explicitly teaches that God sovereignly chose and predestined specific individuals before creation (or before their birth) for particular roles in His plan. ??????
In other words.
There were specific people chosen before creation to carryout specific things God had in mind when he made the plans for creation.
Aside from the one He would send to be the Messiah/Savior of the world.....
There were all the prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah and Daniel among others, to give a word of things that would be coming
in the future.
There was Adam and Eve who had to get the ball of ddecadence started and rolling.
There was Noah who had to get the entire world restarted again. Even though there was little improvement from when Adam and Eve messed things up.
There was possibly the second predestined person , the Word/Jesus being the first, by the name of Moses....
And the list goes on and on in the Old Testament.
In the New
There was Mary , who by lineage was predestined to carry Jesus, for her blood line had to trace back to David.... (Also predestined)
There was Joseph, who by a different path also traced back to David.
Why was this important? The prophecy concerning the lineage of David is a central theme in the biblical narrative, highlighting God's covenantal promises and the unfolding of His redemptive plan through history. This prophecy is rooted in the Davidic Covenant, which establishes David's line as the royal lineage through which the Messiah would come.
There was Elizabeth who was predestined to carry John the Baptist.
There was John the Baptist who was born to be able to baptize Jesus.
There were the initial 12 disciples who were not randomly picked but Jesus chose his twelve disciples. Luke 6:13, states that He called His disciples to Him and selected twelve of them, whom He also named apostles. This event highlights the importance of these individuals in his ministry.
NASB 1995
And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:
John 15:16, states, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last." This emphasizes that Jesus selected his followers for a purpose.
Especially Judas.
Also predestined was the jailor, Corneilus, Stephanus, Crispus and not least.... Lydia.. the woman who toucched Jesus to be cured... and even the woman at the well.
Now I could go on but this is just to show you that God the Father did predestine some people . BUT NOT EVERYONE!!!
Some were needed to be predestined to carry out God plan and history.
brightfame52
Active Member
Roles that necessitated their salvation. All the elect were saved unto good works God had previously ordained that they should walk there in Ephesians 2:8 -10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wholeheart
Active Member
Genesis 3:8-10: They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
God called to Adam and he responded by confessing his fear. Are we to assume this vulnerable reply was actually brought about by some type of inner effectual work of divine grace, or was Adam simply responding freely to the loving call of a God genuinely seeking him in his brokenness?
God called to Adam and he responded by confessing his fear. Are we to assume this vulnerable reply was actually brought about by some type of inner effectual work of divine grace, or was Adam simply responding freely to the loving call of a God genuinely seeking him in his brokenness?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Unbelievable.
atpollard
Active Member
Probably true, but the word in SCRIPTURE is “proginōskō” which is used in these specific verses:
- [Act 26:5 NASB95] 5 since they have known[G4267] about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived [as] a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.
- [Rom 8:29 NASB95] 29 For those whom He foreknew,[G4267] He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
- [Rom 11:2 NASB95] 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.[G4267] Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
- [1Pe 1:20 NASB95] 20 For He was foreknown[G4267] before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
- [2Pe 3:17 NASB95] 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing[G4267] this beforehand,[G4267] be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
Note that in these verses, PEOPLE know facts/information, and GOD knows people.
Wholeheart
Active Member
Why did God not predestine Adam and Eve not to sin?
God did not predestine Adam and Eve to sin because he gave them free will so their love and obedience would be genuine, not forced.
He hasn't changed, we still have free will to believe in Jesus. A central tenet is that love must be freely given. A relationship with God is only meaningful if humans have the choice to love and obey Him.
God's plan involved us making an authentic choice, even if it means we could choose wrongly.
God did not predestine Adam and Eve to sin because he gave them free will so their love and obedience would be genuine, not forced.
He hasn't changed, we still have free will to believe in Jesus. A central tenet is that love must be freely given. A relationship with God is only meaningful if humans have the choice to love and obey Him.
God's plan involved us making an authentic choice, even if it means we could choose wrongly.
brightfame52
Active Member
Believe itUnbelievable.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Those that are on the predestined side feel God predestined Adam and Eve for exactly what they did.
I do not agree but have had that argument with more then one.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Strong's Greek: 4267. προγινώσκω (proginóskó) -- To foreknow, to know ...
Overview Strong's Greek 4267 highlights a truth woven through Scripture: genuine, purposeful knowledge that exists before the fact. In its five New Testament appearances, the term is sometimes applied to God's eternal counsel and sometimes to human advance knowledge.@atpollard, please ... even though a specific word is used in scriptures, do not truncate it's meaning to make a point.
The Bible teaches that God perfectly and eternally foreknows every single detail of everything that will ever happen — every person, every thought, every event, every molecule, absolutely everything.
Here are the clearest verses that say exactly that:
Isaiah 46:9–10 “I am God… declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.”
God knows the entire future perfectly.
Psalm 139:4 "Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all."
Every word before you speak it.
Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them."
Every single day of your life before you were born.
Matt 10: 30 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
Even the tinyiest details are known.
“God eternally and perfectly foreknows every single detail of every person, thought, event, and atom that will ever exist .....nothing surprises Him, nothing escapes His knowledge, and nothing happens outside of what He has always known.”
atpollard
Active Member
So quoting EVERY VERSE where a word appears is “truncating its meaning”?I am humbled before your eisegetical skill.
- In Acts 26:5 and 2 Peter 3:17, the word [G4267] references knowledge of facts held by people.
- In Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 and 1 Peter 1:20, the word [G4267] references knowledge of a person (not a fact) and it is God that “knew” (not a person).
PEOPLE know FACTS and GOD knows PEOPLE in [G4267] (just as I and scripture demonstrated).
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I am humbled before your eisegetical skill.
Those are the only 5 biblical verses that use the word [G4267] … go and look it up for yourself.
- In Acts 26:5 and 2 Peter 3:17, the word [G4267] references knowledge of facts held by people.
- In Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 and 1 Peter 1:20, the word [G4267] references knowledge of a person (not a fact) and it is God that “knew” (not a person).
Mr. Brainiac.... DID I NOT WRITE THIS just above here?
Overview Strong's Greek 4267 highlights a truth woven through Scripture: genuine, purposeful knowledge that exists before the fact. In its five New Testament appearances, the term is sometimes applied to God's eternal counsel and sometimes to human advance knowledge.
I wrote 5. You must have scanned over that part.
Every other thing I posted states correctly
The Bible teaches that God perfectly and eternally foreknows every single detail of everything that will ever happen — every person, every thought, every event, every molecule, absolutely everything.
“God eternally and perfectly foreknows every single detail of every person, thought, event, and atom that will ever exist .....nothing surprises Him, nothing escapes His knowledge, and nothing happens outside of what He has always known.”
I looked up the 5 verses in the interlinear and by the way written I still feel that most just saying God knows people is not the full meaning originally meant. But that is us reading the same words and seeing things differently.
Foreknowledge in Redemptive History
The Old Testament consistently presents God as One who “declares the end from the beginning” (Isaiah 46:10). The New Testament develops that theme: divine foreknowledge is not passive observation but an active, covenantal commitment. What God knows beforehand He graciously orders and secures for His glory and His people’s good. Thus foreknowledge intertwines with predestination, calling, justification, and glorification (Romans 8:29–30).
Historical and Doctrinal Considerations
From the early church fathers through the Reformers, interpreters recognized that divine foreknowledge entails loving intention, not mere foresight. Augustine connected Romans 8:29 with unconditional election; Calvin underscored that God “foreknew” His own in the sense of graciously choosing them. Later debates between Arminians and Calvinists centered on whether foreknowledge is conditioned on human faith or whether faith itself is the fruit of God’s foreknowing love. Throughout, orthodox theology affirms that God’s omniscience never conflicts with human responsibility.
Summary
Strong’s Greek 4267 underscores that history, salvation, and personal discipleship unfold under the gaze and guidance of One who knows the end from the beginning. Whether describing God’s eternal purposes or forewarning believers, the term invites confidence in providence, commitment to holiness, and joyful participation in the gospel’s advance.
You keep making that claim. But what does it mean that God knows people? Certainly, he knows their names, but it is more. It is that He knows every bit of the what about people. It is the what about the whom that is key.
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