civic
Active Member
Yes the wrath verses are mysteriously absent in scripture. Yet its somehow the foundation for PSA.
Who would of thunk it lol.
Anti-PSA—explain to me how the Blood of Jesus is connected to forgiving.
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
Who would of thunk it lol.
God seems to have a different motive
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Titus 3:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Romans 5:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Whoa!
civic
Active Member
For the WRATH adherents.
Where is Christ ever said below to be the recipient of Gods wrath ? Below is every usage of WRATH in the N.T.
Englishman's Concordance
Matthew 3:7 N-GFS
GRK: τῆς μελλούσης ὀργῆς
NAS: you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV: to flee from the wrath to come?
INT: the coming wrath
Mark 3:5 N-GFS
GRK: αὐτοὺς μετ' ὀργῆς συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ
NAS: After looking around at them with anger, grieved
KJV: on them with anger, being grieved for
INT: them with anger being grieved at
Luke 3:7 N-GFS
GRK: τῆς μελλούσης ὀργῆς
NAS: you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV: to flee from the wrath to come?
INT: the coming wrath
Luke 21:23 N-NFS
GRK: γῆς καὶ ὀργὴ τῷ λαῷ
NAS: upon the land and wrath to this
KJV: the land, and wrath upon this
INT: land and wrath those people
John 3:36 N-NFS
GRK: ἀλλ' ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: life, but the wrath of God
KJV: life; but the wrath of God abideth
INT: but the wrath of God
Romans 1:18 N-NFS
GRK: Ἀποκαλύπτεται γὰρ ὀργὴ θεοῦ ἀπ'
NAS: For the wrath of God is revealed
KJV: For the wrath of God is revealed
INT: there is revealed indeed wrath of God from
Romans 2:5 N-AFS
GRK: θησαυρίζεις σεαυτῷ ὀργὴν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ
NAS: you are storing up wrath for yourself
KJV: unto thyself wrath against
INT: treasure up to yourself wrath in a day
Romans 2:5 N-GFS
GRK: ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ὀργῆς καὶ ἀποκαλύψεως
NAS: in the day of wrath and revelation
KJV: the day of wrath and
INT: in a day of wrath and revelation
Romans 2:8 N-NFS
GRK: τῇ ἀδικίᾳ ὀργὴ καὶ θυμός
NAS: unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
KJV: indignation and wrath,
INT: unrighteousness wrath and anger
Romans 3:5 N-AFS
GRK: ἐπιφέρων τὴν ὀργήν κατὰ ἄνθρωπον
NAS: who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous,
KJV: who taketh vengeance? (I speak
INT: inflicts the wrath According to man
Romans 4:15 N-AFS
GRK: γὰρ νόμος ὀργὴν κατεργάζεται οὗ
NAS: brings about wrath, but where
KJV: the law worketh wrath: for where
INT: indeed law wrath brings where
Romans 5:9 N-GFS
GRK: ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς
NAS: we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through
KJV: from wrath through
INT: from the wrath
Romans 9:22 N-AFS
GRK: ἐνδείξασθαι τὴν ὀργὴν καὶ γνωρίσαι
NAS: to demonstrate His wrath and to make
KJV: to shew [his] wrath, and
INT: to show the wrath and to make known
Romans 9:22 N-GFS
GRK: μακροθυμίᾳ σκεύη ὀργῆς κατηρτισμένα εἰς
NAS: vessels of wrath prepared
KJV: the vessels of wrath fitted
INT: patience vessels of wrath fitted for
Romans 12:19 N-DFS
GRK: τόπον τῇ ὀργῇ γέγραπται γάρ
NAS: room for the wrath [of God], for it is written,
KJV: place unto wrath: for
INT: place to wrath it has been written indeed
Romans 13:4 N-AFS
GRK: ἔκδικος εἰς ὀργὴν τῷ τὸ
NAS: an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices
KJV: a revenger to [execute] wrath upon
INT: an avenger for wrath to him that
Romans 13:5 N-AFS
GRK: διὰ τὴν ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ καὶ
NAS: because of wrath, but also
KJV: only for wrath, but also
INT: on account of the wrath but also
Ephesians 2:3 N-GFS
GRK: τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ
NAS: children of wrath, even
KJV: the children of wrath, even
INT: children by nature of wrath as even
Ephesians 4:31 N-NFS
GRK: θυμὸς καὶ ὀργὴ καὶ κραυγὴ
NAS: and wrath and anger and clamor
KJV: wrath, and anger, and clamour,
INT: anger and wrath and clamour
Ephesians 5:6 N-NFS
GRK: ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: of these things the wrath of God
KJV: cometh the wrath of God
INT: comes the wrath of God
Colossians 3:6 N-NFS
GRK: ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: of these things that the wrath of God
KJV: which things' sake the wrath of God
INT: comes the wrath of God
Colossians 3:8 N-AFS
GRK: τὰ πάντα ὀργήν θυμόν κακίαν
NAS: them all aside: anger, wrath, malice,
KJV: all these; anger, wrath,
INT: all [these] things anger rage malice
1 Thessalonians 1:10 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς τῆς ἐρχομένης
NAS: who rescues us from the wrath to come.
KJV: us from the wrath to come.
INT: from the wrath coming
1 Thessalonians 2:16 N-NFS
GRK: αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος
NAS: of their sins. But wrath has come
KJV: alway: for the wrath is come upon
INT: them the wrath to the utmost
1 Thessalonians 5:9 N-AFS
GRK: θεὸς εἰς ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ εἰς
NAS: has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining
KJV: us to wrath, but to
INT: God for wrath but for
Strong's Greek 3709
36 Occurrences
ὀργὴ — 13 Occ.
ὀργὴν — 9 Occ.
ὀργῆς — 14 Occ
Where is Christ ever said below to be the recipient of Gods wrath ? Below is every usage of WRATH in the N.T.
Englishman's Concordance
Matthew 3:7 N-GFS
GRK: τῆς μελλούσης ὀργῆς
NAS: you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV: to flee from the wrath to come?
INT: the coming wrath
Mark 3:5 N-GFS
GRK: αὐτοὺς μετ' ὀργῆς συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ
NAS: After looking around at them with anger, grieved
KJV: on them with anger, being grieved for
INT: them with anger being grieved at
Luke 3:7 N-GFS
GRK: τῆς μελλούσης ὀργῆς
NAS: you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV: to flee from the wrath to come?
INT: the coming wrath
Luke 21:23 N-NFS
GRK: γῆς καὶ ὀργὴ τῷ λαῷ
NAS: upon the land and wrath to this
KJV: the land, and wrath upon this
INT: land and wrath those people
John 3:36 N-NFS
GRK: ἀλλ' ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: life, but the wrath of God
KJV: life; but the wrath of God abideth
INT: but the wrath of God
Romans 1:18 N-NFS
GRK: Ἀποκαλύπτεται γὰρ ὀργὴ θεοῦ ἀπ'
NAS: For the wrath of God is revealed
KJV: For the wrath of God is revealed
INT: there is revealed indeed wrath of God from
Romans 2:5 N-AFS
GRK: θησαυρίζεις σεαυτῷ ὀργὴν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ
NAS: you are storing up wrath for yourself
KJV: unto thyself wrath against
INT: treasure up to yourself wrath in a day
Romans 2:5 N-GFS
GRK: ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ὀργῆς καὶ ἀποκαλύψεως
NAS: in the day of wrath and revelation
KJV: the day of wrath and
INT: in a day of wrath and revelation
Romans 2:8 N-NFS
GRK: τῇ ἀδικίᾳ ὀργὴ καὶ θυμός
NAS: unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
KJV: indignation and wrath,
INT: unrighteousness wrath and anger
Romans 3:5 N-AFS
GRK: ἐπιφέρων τὴν ὀργήν κατὰ ἄνθρωπον
NAS: who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous,
KJV: who taketh vengeance? (I speak
INT: inflicts the wrath According to man
Romans 4:15 N-AFS
GRK: γὰρ νόμος ὀργὴν κατεργάζεται οὗ
NAS: brings about wrath, but where
KJV: the law worketh wrath: for where
INT: indeed law wrath brings where
Romans 5:9 N-GFS
GRK: ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς
NAS: we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through
KJV: from wrath through
INT: from the wrath
Romans 9:22 N-AFS
GRK: ἐνδείξασθαι τὴν ὀργὴν καὶ γνωρίσαι
NAS: to demonstrate His wrath and to make
KJV: to shew [his] wrath, and
INT: to show the wrath and to make known
Romans 9:22 N-GFS
GRK: μακροθυμίᾳ σκεύη ὀργῆς κατηρτισμένα εἰς
NAS: vessels of wrath prepared
KJV: the vessels of wrath fitted
INT: patience vessels of wrath fitted for
Romans 12:19 N-DFS
GRK: τόπον τῇ ὀργῇ γέγραπται γάρ
NAS: room for the wrath [of God], for it is written,
KJV: place unto wrath: for
INT: place to wrath it has been written indeed
Romans 13:4 N-AFS
GRK: ἔκδικος εἰς ὀργὴν τῷ τὸ
NAS: an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices
KJV: a revenger to [execute] wrath upon
INT: an avenger for wrath to him that
Romans 13:5 N-AFS
GRK: διὰ τὴν ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ καὶ
NAS: because of wrath, but also
KJV: only for wrath, but also
INT: on account of the wrath but also
Ephesians 2:3 N-GFS
GRK: τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ
NAS: children of wrath, even
KJV: the children of wrath, even
INT: children by nature of wrath as even
Ephesians 4:31 N-NFS
GRK: θυμὸς καὶ ὀργὴ καὶ κραυγὴ
NAS: and wrath and anger and clamor
KJV: wrath, and anger, and clamour,
INT: anger and wrath and clamour
Ephesians 5:6 N-NFS
GRK: ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: of these things the wrath of God
KJV: cometh the wrath of God
INT: comes the wrath of God
Colossians 3:6 N-NFS
GRK: ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: of these things that the wrath of God
KJV: which things' sake the wrath of God
INT: comes the wrath of God
Colossians 3:8 N-AFS
GRK: τὰ πάντα ὀργήν θυμόν κακίαν
NAS: them all aside: anger, wrath, malice,
KJV: all these; anger, wrath,
INT: all [these] things anger rage malice
1 Thessalonians 1:10 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς τῆς ἐρχομένης
NAS: who rescues us from the wrath to come.
KJV: us from the wrath to come.
INT: from the wrath coming
1 Thessalonians 2:16 N-NFS
GRK: αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος
NAS: of their sins. But wrath has come
KJV: alway: for the wrath is come upon
INT: them the wrath to the utmost
1 Thessalonians 5:9 N-AFS
GRK: θεὸς εἰς ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ εἰς
NAS: has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining
KJV: us to wrath, but to
INT: God for wrath but for
Strong's Greek 3709
36 Occurrences
ὀργὴ — 13 Occ.
ὀργὴν — 9 Occ.
ὀργῆς — 14 Occ
civic
Active Member
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrated His LOVE towards in in that while we were yet sinners, Christ dies for us.
Some would change this to read :
God demonstrated His WRATH towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ dies for us bearing the wrath of God.
hope this helps !!!
But God demonstrated His LOVE towards in in that while we were yet sinners, Christ dies for us.
Some would change this to read :
God demonstrated His WRATH towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ dies for us bearing the wrath of God.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Active Member
Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”
Rom_1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
Rom_2:5 But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom_3:5 But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms.
Rom_9:22 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?
Eph_5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.
Col_3:6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Rev_14:10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Rev_14:19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
Rev_15:1 Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God will be completed.
Rev_15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
Rev_16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”
Rev_16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.
Rev_19:15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
Wrath of God is everywhere-so says the firm believer in PSA.
You left off Penal substitution 10:1
civic
Active Member
civic
Active Member
lolYou left off Penal substitution 10:1
Johann
Active Member
You don't know-YHVH had to deal with the Chattat and the Avon-a very good case for PSA.
civic
Active Member
There is no case for PSA since the Father was never angry with the Son. God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself.
Wrath is never once falling on the Son in scripture as the heresy of PSA teaches. It’s a man made doctrine not a biblical doctrine.
Johann
Active Member
Like I've said-YHVH had to deal with the Chattat and Avon-Messiah our sin bearer-you cannot escape this-a good case for PSA. I have no problem being branded as a heretic.
Maybe you SHOULD study Isa 53 again.
civic
Active Member
Maybe you should find every NT quote of Isaiah 53 and discover your passage is not ever quoted in the NT. I have studied it myself , you have not.
All you have is an argument from silence since neither Jesus or the apostles quoted your pet verse from Isaiah 53 proving the NT does not teach penal atonement. Good hermeneutics teach us the new interprets the old.
Next
Johann
Active Member
No argument from silence-I KNOW you haven't studied the said passage-but if you don't mind, I'm not interested in having a convo with you-you need to grow up.
civic
Active Member
Correct you have no argument or defense of PSA.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)
2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)
6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)
8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Active Member
You may want to start here-using the Syntax, Morphology and Grammar
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃
ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃
נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃
ויתן את־רשׁעים קברו ואת־עשׁיר במתיו על לא־חמס עשׂה ולא מרמה בפיו׃
ויהוה חפץ דכאו החלי אם־תשׂים אשׁם נפשׁו יראה זרע יאריך ימים וחפץ יהוה בידו יצלח׃
מעמל נפשׁו יראה ישׂבע בדעתו יצדיק צדיק עבדי לרבים ועונתם הוא יסבל׃
לכן אחלק־לו ברבים ואת־עצומים יחלק שׁלל תחת אשׁר הערה למות נפשׁו ואת־פשׁעים נמנה והוא חטא־רבים נשׂא ולפשׁעים יפגיע׃
Isa 53:1 The Suffering Servant
WhoH4310 Interrog mî מִ֥י N1 has believedH539 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·’ĕ·mîn הֶאֱמִ֖ין our report?H8052 Prep-l+N-fsc+1cp liš·mu·‘ā·ṯê·nū לִשְׁמֻעָתֵ֑נוּ and the armH2220 Conj-w+N-fsc ū·zə·rō·w·a‘ וּזְר֥וֹעַ of YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה toH5921 Prep ‘al- עַל־ whomH4310 Interrog mî מִ֥י has been revealed?H1540 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3fs niḡ·lā·ṯāh נִגְלָֽתָה׃ N2
Isa 53:2 for He shall grow upH5927 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms way·ya·‘al וַיַּ֨עַל as a tender plant,H3126 Prep-k-Art+N-ms kay·yō·w·nêq כַּיּוֹנֵ֜ק before HimH6440 Prep-l+N-cpc+3ms lə·p̄ā·nāw לְפָנָ֗יו and as a rootH8328 Conj-w-Prep-k-Art+N-ms wə·ḵaš·šō·reš וְכַשֹּׁ֙רֶשׁ֙ out of ground;H776 Prep-m+N-fsc mê·’e·reṣ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ dryH6723 Adj-fs ṣî·yāh צִיָּ֔ה noH3808 Adv-NegPrt lō- לֹא־ formH8389 N-ms ṯō·’ar תֹ֥אַר He hasH0 Prep+3ms lōw ל֖וֹ orH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֣א comeliness;H1926 N-ms hā·ḏār הָדָ֑ר and we see HimH7200 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConjImperf.h-1cp+3ms wə·nir·’ê·hū וְנִרְאֵ֥הוּ and [There is] noH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō- וְלֹֽא־ beautyH4758 N-ms mar·’eh מַרְאֶ֖ה that we should desire Him.H2530 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConjImperf.h-1cp+3ms wə·neḥ·mə·ḏê·hū וְנֶחְמְדֵֽהוּ׃
Isa 53:3 He is despisedH959 H8737 V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms niḇ·zeh נִבְזֶה֙ and rejected byH2310 Conj-w+Adj-msc wa·ḥă·ḏal וַחֲדַ֣ל men;H376 N-mp ’î·šîm אִישִׁ֔ים a ManH376 N-msc ’îš אִ֥ישׁ of sorrows,H4341 N-mp maḵ·’ō·ḇō·wṯ מַכְאֹב֖וֹת and acquaintedH3045 H8803 Conj-w+V-Qal-QalPassPrtcpl-msc wî·ḏū·a‘ וִיד֣וּעַ with grief;H2483 N-ms ḥō·lî חֹ֑לִי and as it were we hidH4564 H8688 Conj-w-Prep-k+N-msc ū·ḵə·mas·têr וּכְמַסְתֵּ֤ר [our] facesH6440 N-mp pā·nîm פָּנִים֙ from HimH4480 Prep+3ms mim·men·nū מִמֶּ֔נּוּ He was despised,H959 H8737 V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms niḇ·zeh נִבְזֶ֖ה and notH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֥א we did esteem Him.H2803 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp+3ms ḥă·šaḇ·nu·hū חֲשַׁבְנֻֽהוּ׃
Isa 53:4 SurelyH403 Adv ’ā·ḵên אָכֵ֤ן our griefs,H2483 N-mpc+1cp ḥo·lā·yê·nū חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ HeH1931 Pro-3ms hū ה֣וּא has borneH5375 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms nā·śā נָשָׂ֔א and our sorrows;H4341 Conj-w+N-mpc+1cp ū·maḵ·’ō·ḇê·nū וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ N1 carriedH5445 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms+3mp sə·ḇā·lām סְבָלָ֑ם and yet weH587 Conj-w+Pro-1cp wa·’ă·naḥ·nū וַאֲנַ֣חְנוּ esteemed HimH2803 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp+3ms ḥă·šaḇ·nu·hū חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ stricken,H5060 H8803 V-Qal-QalPassPrtcpl-ms nā·ḡū·a‘ נָג֛וּעַ Smitten byH5221 H8716 V-Hofal-Prtcpl-msc muk·kêh מֻכֵּ֥ה God,H430 N-mp ’ĕ·lō·hîm אֱלֹהִ֖ים and afflicted.H6031 H8794 Conj-w+V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms ū·mə·‘un·neh וּמְעֻנֶּֽה׃
Isa 53:5 But HeH1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְהוּא֙ [was] woundedH2490 H8775 V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms mə·ḥō·lāl מְחֹלָ֣ל for our transgressions,H6588 Prep-m+N-mpc+1cp mip·pə·šā·‘ê·nū מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ [He was] bruisedH1792 H8794 V-Pual-Prtcpl-ms mə·ḏuk·kā מְדֻכָּ֖א for our iniquities;H5771 Prep-m+N-cpc+1cp mê·‘ă·wō·nō·ṯê·nū מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵ֑ינוּ the chastisement forH4148 N-msc mū·sar מוּסַ֤ר our peaceH7965 N-msc+1cp šə·lō·w·mê·nū שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ [was] upon HimH5921 Prep+3ms ‘ā·lāw עָלָ֔יו and by His stripesH2250 Conj-w-Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms ū·ḇa·ḥă·ḇu·rā·ṯōw וּבַחֲבֻרָת֖וֹ are healedH7495 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms nir·pā- נִרְפָּא־ N1 we.H0 Prep+1cp lā·nū לָֽנוּ׃
Isa 53:6 All weH3605 N-msc+1cp kul·lā·nū כֻּלָּ֙נוּ֙ like sheepH6629 Prep-k-Art+N-cs kaṣ·ṣōn כַּצֹּ֣אן have gone astray;H8582 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp tā·‘î·nū תָּעִ֔ינוּ N1 every oneH376 N-ms ’îš אִ֥ישׁ to his own way;H1870 Prep-l+N-csc+3ms lə·ḏar·kōw לְדַרְכּ֖וֹ we have turnedH6437 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-1cp pā·nî·nū פָּנִ֑ינוּ and YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַֽיהוָה֙ has laidH6293 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms hip̄·gî·a‘ הִפְגִּ֣יעַ on HimH0 Prep+3ms bōw בּ֔וֹ -H853 DirObjM ’êṯ אֵ֖ת the iniquityH5771 N-csc ‘ă·wōn עֲוֺ֥ן of us all.H3605 N-msc+1cp kul·lā·nū כֻּלָּֽנוּ׃
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed,H5065 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms nig·gaś נִגַּ֨שׂ and HeH1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְה֣וּא was afflicted,H6031 H8737 V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms na·‘ă·neh נַעֲנֶה֮ and yet notH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֣א He openedH6605 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yip̄·taḥ- יִפְתַּח־ His mouth;H6310 N-msc+3ms pîw פִּיו֒ as a lambH7716 Prep-k-Art+N-ms kaś·śeh כַּשֶּׂה֙ to the slaughter,H2874 Prep-l-Art+N-ms laṭ·ṭe·ḇaḥ לַטֶּ֣בַח He was ledH2986 H8714 V-Hofal-Imperf-3ms yū·ḇāl יוּבָ֔ל and as a sheepH7353 Conj-w-Prep-k+N-fs ū·ḵə·rā·ḥêl וּכְרָחֵ֕ל beforeH6440 Prep-l+N-cpc lip̄·nê לִפְנֵ֥י its shearersH1494 H8802 V-Qal-Prtcpl-mpc+3fs ḡō·zə·ze·hā גֹזְזֶ֖יהָ is silent,H481 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3fs ne·’ĕ·lā·māh נֶאֱלָ֑מָה so notH3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֥א He openedH6605 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yip̄·taḥ יִפְתַּ֖ח His mouth.H6310 N-msc+3ms pîw פִּֽיו׃
Isa 53:8 From prisonH6115 Prep-m+N-ms mê·‘ō·ṣer מֵעֹ֤צֶר and from judgment;H4941 Conj-w-Prep-m+N-ms ū·mim·miš·pāṭ וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ He was takenH3947 H8795 V-QalPass-Perf-3ms luq·qāḥ לֻקָּ֔ח andH853 Conj-w+DirObjM wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ His generation?H1755 N-msc+3ms dō·w·rōw דּוֹר֖וֹ whoH4310 Interrog mî מִ֣י will declareH7878 H8787 V-Piel-Imperf-3ms yə·śō·w·ḥê·aḥ יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ forH3588 Conj kî כִּ֤י He was cut offH1504 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms niḡ·zar נִגְזַר֙ from the landH776 Prep-m+N-fsc mê·’e·reṣ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ of the living;H2416 Adj-mp ḥay·yîm חַיִּ֔ים N1 for the transgressionsH6588 Prep-m+N-msc mip·pe·ša‘ מִפֶּ֥שַׁע of My peopleH5971 N-msc+1cs ‘am·mî עַמִּ֖י was strickenH5061 N-ms ne·ḡa‘ נֶ֥גַע He.H0 Prep+3mp lā·mōw לָֽמוֹ׃
Isa 53:9 A Grave Assigned
and they madeH5414 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms way·yit·tên וַיִּתֵּ֤ן N1 withH854 Prep ’eṯ- אֶת־ the wicked,H7563 Adj-mp rə·šā·‘îm רְשָׁעִים֙ His graveH6913 N-msc+3ms qiḇ·rōw קִבְר֔וֹ but withH854 Conj-w+Prep wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ the richH6223 Adj-ms ‘ā·šîr עָשִׁ֖יר at His death;H4194 Prep-b+N-mpc+3ms bə·mō·ṯāw בְּמֹתָ֑יו becauseH5921 Prep ‘al עַ֚ל noH3808 Adv-NegPrt lō- לֹא־ violence,H2555 N-ms ḥā·mās חָמָ֣ס He had doneH6213 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ‘ā·śāh עָשָׂ֔ה nor [was any]H3808 Conj-w+Adv-NegPrt wə·lō וְלֹ֥א deceitH4820 N-fs mir·māh מִרְמָ֖ה in His mouth.H6310 Prep-b+N-msc+3ms bə·p̄îw בְּפִֽיו׃ N2
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1 His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֥ה [His] seed,H2233 N-ms ze·ra‘ זֶ֖רַע He shall prolongH748 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms ya·’ă·rîḵ יַאֲרִ֣יךְ [His] days,H3117 N-mp yā·mîm יָמִ֑ים and the pleasureH2656 Conj-w+N-msc wə·ḥê·p̄eṣ וְחֵ֥פֶץ of YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֖ה in His handH3027 Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms bə·yā·ḏōw בְּיָד֥וֹ shall prosper.H6743 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yiṣ·lāḥ יִצְלָֽח׃
Isa 53:11 The laborH5999 Prep-m+N-msc mê·‘ă·mal מֵעֲמַ֤ל of His soul,H5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁוֹ֙ He shall seeH7200 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yir·’eh יִרְאֶ֣ה N1 [and] be satisfied;H7646 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yiś·bā‘ יִשְׂבָּ֔ע by His knowledgeH1847 Prep-b+N-fsc+3ms bə·ḏa‘·tōw בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ shall justifyH6663 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms yaṣ·dîq יַצְדִּ֥יק righteousH6662 Adj-ms ṣad·dîq צַדִּ֛יק My ServantH5650 N-msc+1cs ‘aḇ·dî עַבְדִּ֖י many;H7227 Prep-l-Art+Adj-mp lā·rab·bîm לָֽרַבִּ֑ים for their iniquitiesH5771 Conj-w+N-cpc+3mp wa·‘ă·wō·nō·ṯām וַעֲוֺנֹתָ֖ם HeH1931 Pro-3ms hū ה֥וּא shall bear.H5445 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3ms yis·bōl יִסְבֹּֽל׃
Isa 53:12 ThereforeH3651 Adv lā·ḵên לָכֵ֞ן I will divide a portionH2505 H8762 V-Piel-Imperf-1cs ’ă·ḥal·leq- אֲחַלֶּק־ HimH0 Prep+3ms lōw ל֣וֹ with the great,H7227 Prep-b-Art+Adj-mp ḇā·rab·bîm בָרַבִּ֗ים N1 and withH854 Conj-w+Prep wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ the strong;H6099 Adj-mp ‘ă·ṣū·mîm עֲצוּמִים֮ N2 He shall divideH2505 H8762 V-Piel-Imperf-3ms yə·ḥal·lêq יְחַלֵּ֣ק the spoilH7998 N-ms šā·lāl שָׁלָל֒ uponH8478 Prep ta·ḥaṯ תַּ֗חַת thatH834 Pro-r ’ă·šer אֲשֶׁ֨ר He poured outH6168 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·‘ĕ·rāh הֶעֱרָ֤ה unto death,H4194 Prep-l-Art+N-ms lam·mā·weṯ לַמָּ֙וֶת֙ His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ and withH854 Conj-w+Prep wə·’eṯ- וְאֶת־ the transgressors;H6586 H8802 V-Qal-Prtcpl-mp pō·šə·‘îm פֹּשְׁעִ֖ים N3 He was numberedH4487 H8738 V-Nifal-Perf-3ms nim·nāh נִמְנָ֑ה and HeH1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְהוּא֙ the sinH2399 N-msc ḥêṭ- חֵטְא־ of many,H7227 Adj-mp rab·bîm רַבִּ֣ים boreH5375 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms nā·śā נָשָׂ֔א and for the transgressorsH6586 H8802 Conj-w-Prep-l-Art+V-Qal-Prtcpl-mp wə·lap·pō·šə·‘îm וְלַפֹּשְׁעִ֖ים made intercession.H6293 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms yap̄·gî·a‘ יַפְגִּֽיעַ׃ס
--other than this-I have no desire to have a conversation with you. I studied this passage in the Ark at Durban, word for word.
civic
Active Member
Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.
Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)
Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
hope this helps !!!
Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)
Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Active Member
Again you have it backward-this is pure Scripture and I am desirous to learn and study, this is my vocation.
Act 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.
More noble than those (eugenesteroi tōn). Comparative form of eugenēs, old and common adjective, but in N.T. only here and Luk_19:12; 1Co_1:26. Followed by ablative case tōn as often after the comparative.
With all readiness of mind (meta pāsēs prothumias). Old word from prothumos (pro, thumos) and means eagerness, rushing forward. In the N.T. only here and 2Co_8:11-19; 2Co_9:2. In Thessalonica many of the Jews out of pride and prejudice refused to listen. Here the Jews joyfully welcomed the two Jewish visitors.
Examining the Scriptures daily (kath' hēmeran anakrinontes tas graphas). Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves. In Scotland people have the Bible open on the preacher as he expounds the passage, a fine habit worth imitating.
Whether these things were so (ei echoi tauta houtōs). Literally, “if these things had it thus.” The present optative in the indirect question represents an original present indicative as in Luk_1:29 (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1043f.). This use of ei with the optative may be looked at as the condition of the fourth class (undetermined with less likelihood of determination) as in Act_17:27; Act_20:16; Act_24:19; Act_27:12 (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1021). The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Paul’s preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain (Hovey).
Robertson' Word Pictures.
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