The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Which is the case for those who remain lost? Are they annihilated or eternally tormented in hell?
Annihilation or Eternal Torment?
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
The above.
PeanutGallery
Member
Raises a question if annihilation is true: Everlasting life is not really everlasting
Matt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
civic
Well-known member
Eternal Torment.
The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
hope this helps !!!
The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
hope this helps !!!
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Yeah, I think eternal torment is soundly based in Scripture. But I'm surprised that nobody said "A loving God would never torment people for eternity".
Rapture Bound
Active member
Here's an excellent video in which all of the 3 main positions on hell are clearly presented. There was no predominate position held by the early church "fathers", they simply fell into all three camps : ECT [Eternal conscious Torment] - Annihilationism [conditional immortality] and Universalism [Universal Reconciliation]. Many people are surprised when they hear this... it is very unlikely that they will hear it in their local churches.
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg
Steve Gregg asserts, "if God finds it tragically necessary to eliminate unrepentant and irredeemable rebels from existence by annihilating them (analogous to putting down a beloved, but rabid, dog), this cannot be regarded as contrary to either compassion or justice. nothing in God's character is impugned...
However, if God has created a hell of torment that serves no constructive end but merely to take endless vengeance on utterly pitiable (though technically "deserving") creatures, then He will tend to be viewed through an entirely different lens...the idea that the Creator loves all His creatures becomes a definitely harder "sell".
The Traditional view of the nature of the nature of hell simply does not cohere well with the character of God disclosed in the gospel."
Matthias
Well-known member
Annihilated in the lake of fire.
Revelation 4:10-11
(10) he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
(11) "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
No rest day and night (= forever and ever) for the unsaved (Revelation 14:10), which is tormenting, corresponds to being tormented day and night (= forever and ever) for Satan, the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 20:10).
Both groups are assigned to (1) the same place (The Lake of Fire) and both groups undergo (2) conscious torment forever and ever.
1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Those who worship the beast and his image fall victim to the endless torments of fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, 14:10 (6:646, Fire, F. Lang).
2. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: those in hell will never rest in their torment, 14:11 (Rest, page 586).
Despite using the Greek word for being blotted out (exaleiphō) in Colossians 2:14 concerning the decrees against us, it is never used in reference to the state of the unsaved after death.
(10) he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
(11) "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
No rest day and night (= forever and ever) for the unsaved (Revelation 14:10), which is tormenting, corresponds to being tormented day and night (= forever and ever) for Satan, the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 20:10).
Both groups are assigned to (1) the same place (The Lake of Fire) and both groups undergo (2) conscious torment forever and ever.
1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Those who worship the beast and his image fall victim to the endless torments of fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, 14:10 (6:646, Fire, F. Lang).
2. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: those in hell will never rest in their torment, 14:11 (Rest, page 586).
Despite using the Greek word for being blotted out (exaleiphō) in Colossians 2:14 concerning the decrees against us, it is never used in reference to the state of the unsaved after death.
DavP
Active member
Rev.14 says the "smoke of their burning" rises forever. Psalms 37 says they will consume away, and be no more.
I gotta say then, they are literally destroyed, forever, gone.
Also, 'accountability' determines one to eternal Life through Christ, or to eternal death. I believe some of Satan's workers ordained to the condemnation against Christ, know... Jesus is The Christ, but still reject Him. That means their 'knowing' reveals they are held accountable with their rejection in the future Millennium.
In Christ's future Millennial reign, it is written that all will know Him, meaning will know without excuse that Jesus is The Christ and God The Son. All knees will bow to Him. So to still reject Him in that future time, means the wicked will make the choice themselves... to perish in the "lake of fire" at the end of the Millennium.
Thus God is not mean to destroy the wicked out of hatred for them. Like Peter said in 2 Peter 3, it is God's wish that all... come to repentance. The wicked followers of the devil apparently, if they cannot be their 'own' gods, they don't want any God to be over them. Now that is truly the height of a 'rebel without a cause'!
I gotta say then, they are literally destroyed, forever, gone.
Also, 'accountability' determines one to eternal Life through Christ, or to eternal death. I believe some of Satan's workers ordained to the condemnation against Christ, know... Jesus is The Christ, but still reject Him. That means their 'knowing' reveals they are held accountable with their rejection in the future Millennium.
In Christ's future Millennial reign, it is written that all will know Him, meaning will know without excuse that Jesus is The Christ and God The Son. All knees will bow to Him. So to still reject Him in that future time, means the wicked will make the choice themselves... to perish in the "lake of fire" at the end of the Millennium.
Thus God is not mean to destroy the wicked out of hatred for them. Like Peter said in 2 Peter 3, it is God's wish that all... come to repentance. The wicked followers of the devil apparently, if they cannot be their 'own' gods, they don't want any God to be over them. Now that is truly the height of a 'rebel without a cause'!
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