An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

You're the one who isn't getting it. He couldn't die until He became as a man born into this world. Your inability to comprehend souls can exist without a body, even more so when that soul is in union with Deity in the one person who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Our souls, created by God, are imputed to our bodies at birth. His soul was uniquely begotten in "eternity past". The only perfect soul. You keep treating the Lord as if He is a human being in the world and subject to all the limitations of being a human being. That did not occur until a body was prepared for Him and He was born into this world and that was a position He took on from His own free will. If He denies Himself the right to function in His Deity in the Incarnation (and He did), then what is left to take up function in that body? You have Him having a soul that is created in time. How can His soul be created when nothing that is created exists apart from Him being already? You have a catch 22 or a person who is so broken up in their being one has to question, "how can they be"?

It is our souls that make us human. Having a body makes us alive in this world as a human being. When you understand that, then you might finally understand what I have been saying to you.

(but I'm not holding my breath) ;)

I've said all I'm going to say on the matter. You have a nice Day. :)
You're the one who isn't getting it. He couldn't die until He became as a man born into this world. Your inability to comprehend souls can exist without a body, even more so when that soul is in union with Deity in the one person who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Our souls, created by God, are imputed to our bodies at birth. His soul was uniquely begotten in "eternity past". The only perfect soul. You keep treating the Lord as if He is a human being in the world and subject to all the limitations of being a human being. That did not occur until a body was prepared for Him and He was born into this world and that was a position He took on from His own free will. If He denies Himself the right to function in His Deity in the Incarnation (and He did), then what is left to take up function in that body? You have Him having a soul that is created in time. How can His soul be created when nothing that is created exists apart from Him being already? You have a catch 22 or a person who is so broken up in their being one has to question, "how can they be"?

It is our souls that make us human. Having a body makes us alive in this world as a human being. When you understand that, then you might finally understand what I have been saying to you.

(but I'm not holding my breath) ;)

I've said all I'm going to say on the matter. You have a nice Day. :)
It sounds like a lot of speculation here - "His soul was uniquely begotten in 'eternity past'?" What verse says that again?
 
Where does the Bible say that angels are made in the image and likeness of God? I must have missed that verse?
females are in the image of His feminine spirit.

the males are in the image of God.

But this image does not refer to the current type nature we are in now,
which is flesh,,,,
but rather to His eden paradise ,
our land in the other reality and our nature
before the fall
 
You're the one who isn't getting it. He couldn't die until He became as a man born into this world. Your inability to comprehend souls can exist without a body, even more so when that soul is in union with Deity in the one person who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Our souls, created by God, are imputed to our bodies at birth. His soul was uniquely begotten in "eternity past". The only perfect soul. You keep treating the Lord as if He is a human being in the world and subject to all the limitations of being a human being. That did not occur until a body was prepared for Him and He was born into this world and that was a position He took on from His own free will. If He denies Himself the right to function in His Deity in the Incarnation (and He did), then what is left to take up function in that body? You have Him having a soul that is created in time. How can His soul be created when nothing that is created exists apart from Him being already? You have a catch 22 or a person who is so broken up in their being one has to question, "how can they be"?

It is our souls that make us human. Having a body makes us alive in this world as a human being. When you understand that, then you might finally understand what I have been saying to you.

(but I'm not holding my breath) ;)

I've said all I'm going to say on the matter. You have a nice Day. :)
the body here is not from God.

So imagine the huge step down He made to be born here in this corrupt flesh.
and forsake the gorgeous nature of paradise to do so...

also all the souls of eden (us!) were not created here on this earth... .either.

that's just so corrupted concept invented by esaus.
 
Because Father, Son and Spirit are distinct personas for a reason. :)

We are made in the image and likeness of God. Which person of the Trinity do you think we resemble?

Angels are made in the image and likeness of God. Which person of the Trinity do you think they resemble? (the Angel of the Lord)

God is a trinity for the sake of His creation, not for Himself. He doesn't need to be a Trinity to know Himself.
per isaiah His feminine spirit is as fire from the waist up and fire from the waist down ...
 
Where does the Bible say that angels are made in the image and likeness of God? I must have missed that verse?
are not angels in the man line? scripture, Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
is not MAN the image of God.....

101G
 
are not angels in the man line? scripture, Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
is not MAN the image of God.....

101G
in the context of the other reality, okay.

in the context of man here on this prison earth, no...
since here man is in a flesh body not made by God context

this perishable flesh is not Gods concept.
 
in the context of the other reality, okay.

in the context of man here on this prison earth, no...
since here man is in a flesh body not made by God context

this perishable flesh is not Gods concept.
what was man image before the fall into sin? did not God made all things GOOD?

101G.
 
i have no idea what books these are.
It is hard to find since it does not exist. You find it next to the Book of Hesitations. And I don't even work in a library

There appears to have been a book called the Assumption of Moses around 2000 years ago, but that is not what this earlier post was about.
 
Before the fall all things were Good..
yes.
correct
after, no. I already answered that...
if no, why these scriptures.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

if the beginning was GOOD, and the END SHALL BE GOOD, what wrong with in between the beginning and the end in HOPE. for if there is no HOPE, until the END, why have a beginning, that is Good without HOPE until END in the first place?

101G.
 
As a Trinitarian I can honestly recognize some logical problems with Christology as classically stated. Why wasn’t Christ more clear about the formulation we’ve come to hold, and why would he leave us logical dilemmas concerning it? Honestly these logical problems can seem strange and daunting and I’ve found fault with a lot of classic Trinitarian definition and jargon matching up with exactly how Scripture has presented itself to me. Someone may find interest in some modifications I’ve felt I’ve had to make to these standard explanations and enjoy my journey of thought.

I want to be up front about my methodology. It may be considered that in the end, one cannot understand the Bible by logic or the mind alone, and taken without a lens or key of revelation, we will constantly find what seems to us contradictions or obscurity in the Bible. I will up front confess that I completely and firmly hold to the idea of revelation alone, and that conversely the mind or logic, however you may understand that, must be insufficient for understanding spiritual truths. In that case, I would consider it urgent that all our study not only be bathed in intellectual arguments, but deep prayer and sincerity about the matter. I would never hide the fact that my personal beliefs are based on actual experience and I think it is definitely Biblical to do so.

I believe God is one being containing or pertaining to three individual personalities such that whatever makes up the three does indeed separate the oneness without completely losing it. Although I feel I can hold this idea in my thoughts, it does seem like a real paradox; yet I would say we find other such paradoxes in Scripture in the oneness of Christ and his bride, the unity of humanity in Adam, the unity of believers in the body of Christ, and the unity of those joined in marriage. Although the Scripture clearly portrays each individual as a real and separate individual, it also just as clearly portrays the whole as one true and viable entity, thought of in the singular; and forcefully so that it seems more than just mere metaphor. I was raised in an individualistic Western culture and it’s personally difficult for me logically and emotionally to consider myself in a corporate unity, so I don't feel I easily grasp it.

So where I have problems with the classic formulation or definitions I’ve seen, is the lack of ontological change in the incarnation. I just honestly can’t see that in the Scripture, which seems to very vividly and markedly describe a real change in the nature of Christ. I wouldn’t say I knew exactly what that change was, but it was certainly a change if I am going to be honest with the text and not come with a precommitment to make it fit what I have already decided. Jesus is said to have “become” something, to have “left” something, to have “emptied” himself of something, to have “taken on” something, to have “impoverished” himself in some way. This is dishonest speech when applied to no real ontological change. Jesus uses descriptions of locality and identity such as “I came from X” or “I know X” and uses time tenses such as “I shared (past tense) glory” in a definite time in the past that he did not share in the same way currently. This is misleading and disingenuous speech if we are to assume that an omni-being is speaking.

Sure, we can attempt to explain this away as heavy metaphor for a human nature manifesting itself, and thus the “real” Christ is the divine side of him, separate from all this human nature talk. Intuitively Trinitarians gravitate to descriptions that include some kind of temporary “setting aside” of divine attributes, whether we call it “veiling” them or making them “dormant,” basically any speech that turns them off without completely eliminating them. And this idea can preserve the whole structure of a classic understanding of the Trinity, giving the third person two natures and localizing him in the divine side. But the question I stared frankly in the face is, is that really what Scripture is doing here, making the man Jesus Christ just an “add-on” nature to a divine person? I could not walk away honestly feeling the Bible does that, and so somewhere I had to rework my understanding.

I believe the case for Jesus being divine is unavoidable, and not just “god-like” but actually pertaining to the uncreated Creator. Jesus is said to be exalted to a point that would be completely inappropriate, idolatrous and blasphemous for any entity, even the most powerful angel or holy man ever created. Jesus is said to accomplish things that no creature has the resources or ability to do, to expiate an infinite crime against the holiness of God, to contain the concept of life itself inside of him, to conquer death by his own power, and even be an integral part in creating all things. These are things a mere creature cannot do, and no one should ever be convinced that they could. But the question that still haunts all these ideas unassailably is: How can God becoming a man to die for the sins of the world mean he experiences no real ontological change?

Where you see the Unitarian always gravitating towards in their “gotcha” questions and problems, is always this singular problem of a logical contradiction in one thing consisting of two contradictory properties: something that is genuinely a creation contradicts in its most essential ontological nature with the properties of something that is genuinely uncreated, such we find as much incompatibility as a square being a circle or a bachelor being married. We lose all sense of comprehensibility or unity of thought by positing definitions that no longer seem to fit. And every Trinitarian I’ve ever seen anyway, would willingly admit to a very high degree of mystery and a limitedness to really fully comprehend it; and sometimes even, when cornered particularly badly, just completely punt to mystery.

So when Jesus Christ says “I came from the Father into the world,” whom (or what?) might we ask is speaking under classic Trinitarian formula: a human nature that is not a localized person? A divine omni-being with no limits or physicality? A combined entity with contradicting properties? An add-on nature using “baby talk” that doesn’t literally mean anything we normally understand it to mean? All these options proved unacceptable to me if I were going to not simply find comfort in my previous understanding, but give the real, honest and utmost reverence to the words I read in the Holy Scripture.
Logical problems with the nature of YHVH and Jesus....

To state it in what strikes me as the simplest possible method...

Everything we need to know about them is contained in the Bible.

I think isaiah and Paul state it pretty straightforward...

Isa 40:13-14 WEB 13 Who has directed Yahweh’s Spirit, or has taught him as his counselor? 14 Who did he take counsel with, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Rom 11:33-36 WEB 33 Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to him, and it will be repaid to him again?” 36 For of him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory for ever! Amen.


On another topic, Richard Feynman stated something similar regarding Quantum mechanics, and I think it applies to God/Jesus....

If anyone tells you they understand, they're lying to you.

The only thing we're capable of understanding is Scripture and much of that is by faith....
 
It is hard to find since it does not exist. You find it next to the Book of Hesitations. And I don't even work in a library

There appears to have been a book called the Assumption of Moses around 2000 years ago, but that is not what this earlier post was about.

When we "assume" something to be true without evidence, in this case Holy Scripture, we veer off course of what God desires for us.

There is no "Book of Assumptions" in the Scriptures.
oh... i asked for the link since you mentioned a book of assumptions and I didn't know what you meant...
and that was weird since I have read mostly everything after 300bc or so and never heard of a book of assumptions.
 
correct

if no, why these scriptures.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

if the beginning was GOOD, and the END SHALL BE GOOD, what wrong with in between the beginning and the end in HOPE. for if there is no HOPE, until the END, why have a beginning, that is Good without HOPE until END in the first place?

101G.
esau's corrupt scroll (the sealed vision)...

the creature made subject to vanity is not God's sons and daughters in eden but refers to the flesh caused by adam, the current situation of this earth and body.

I never said there is no hope... that s why Christ came here, no, to make possible us to escape this dungeon so that we can Return to Him to our Eden ground.
 
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