Dizerner
Well-known member
Why would any Trinitarian say that?!!
An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian
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Why would any Trinitarian say that?!!
That is why there is a need for discernment and the first thing one needs to learn regarding discernment is sometimes the parts we don't understand? Is because we don't have enough background information to build on.
One needs to take what is understood and wait upon the Lord for the rest. Falsehood will always prove itself to be false eventually if one is prepared to wait.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Because Father, Son and Spirit are distinct personas for a reason.
We are made in the image and likeness of God. Which person of the Trinity do you think we resemble?
Angels are made in the image and likeness of God. Which person of the Trinity do you think they resemble? (the Angel of the Lord)
God is a trinity for the sake of His creation, not for Himself. He doesn't need to be a Trinity to know Himself.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Because Father, Son and Spirit are distinct personas for a reason.
And persons have souls, there is no such thing as a soulless person.
All three, clearly.
All three.
What?!!
No creation is about God, God is the center and priority.
God does not bow to creation and determine himself by it.
Matthew 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
But He does bend down to His creation, that is why he is the Greatest. There is nothing that pleases the Lord more than when He can serve His creation with all the good things He loves to give because He is the generous giver of all givers and all that He gives is good.
None of us would know God if He were not a Trinity. God as Deity is completely other than and totally beyond creations ability to comprehend Him.
It isn't that God doesn't have a soul, but that soul is in the Word and the Word is the Son. He expresses His soul through the Son. God has caused himself to be Father, Son and Spirit so His creation can know Him because He wants to be known by us and be relatable for us because He loves his creation. It's why big "macho" dads can be found having tea parties with their daughters.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Matthew 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
But He does bend down to His creation, that is why he is the Greatest. There is nothing that pleases the Lord more than when He can serve His creation with all the good things He loves to give because He is the generous giver of all givers and all that He gives is good.
None of us would know God if He were not a Trinity. God as Deity is completely other than and totally beyond creations ability to comprehend Him.
It isn't that God doesn't have a soul, but that soul is in the Word and the Word is the Son. He expresses His soul through the Son. God has caused himself to be Father, Son and Spirit so His creation can know Him because He wants to be known by us and be relatable for us because He loves his creation. It's why big "macho" dads can be found having tea parties with their daughters.
God is self-sacrificial, but God is not self-effacing.
If God were to bend his authority and holiness to the whims of creation, he would not demand Christ be punished for our sins, or that sin be accounted for at all.
God is an unfathomable mystery whether he is Trinitarian or not—even if God were one person he would still be an infinite mystery; it is just all the more fitting.
One soul per person. You cannot be "my soul." I know we use this romance language like "she is my heart, my soul," but one person is never literally another person's soul.
That is quite a strange idea, and would ruin their personhood, as they could no longer relate to each other as full persons, but would be on person chopped up into parts.
I have no idea why you think I'm saying God is somehow "bending His authority and holiness to the whims of creation" by being a Trinity. You said it yourself, God is an infinite mystery. If He was not also "the Angel of the Lord", angels could not comprehend Him. Similarly, if He was not the Son of Man, we could not understand Him. If he didn't love His creation and want to share His life, He would not need present Himself in this way and He could forever remain the mystery He is. He is a Trinity to make Himself known to His creation. Go explain yourself to an ant and see how far you get. If you want the ant to know you, you will need to become as an ant.
Now you're conceding to a "lights ON for just a moment". That shows that your original position, which you were so convinced about, is tenuous at best.
Anyways, Jesus is the same past, present, and future. He would not be that if he was in the habit of switching ON and OFF as your theory requires.
Nope. Eutychius believed in one nature which is not true of your belief because you believe that Christ received a human body. Your belief is definitely Apollonarian.
Now you're into redefining the standard definition of death.
Let's go along with your definition, for argument's sake, which is the "separating" of soul and body.
I'm sure that "separating" is not a forever thing, right? IOW, there will come a time when separation is complete.
So when the "separating" has been completed then it's no longer death according to your definition because it's done separating.
"You're making a lot of logical errors."
That is everyone's fall back position when they've been stumped logically.
You didn't say anything about something that's uncreated becoming created and keeping its uncreated nature.
You danced around the subject discussed.
And so far the Nestorian shoe fits on your foot.
That's because any attempt to separate anything (soul in this case) into two (uncreated and created nature in this case) takes you right smack into the cesspool of Nestorianism.
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civic
Well-known member
yes if it quacks like a duck. has a bill like a duck, waddles like a duck, webbed feet like a duck, feathers like a duck then by all means its a duck.@sawdust
I highlighted above where @GeneZ believes that the Preincarnate Word always had a Divine soul, as opposed to receiving a human soul at his Incarnation.
I forwarded information on how that is classified as Apollinarianism error. Here is that information again:
Now why is that a problem?
Everything in blue text is sourced from this web site:
Apollinarianism
When we read in John 1:14 that “the Word became flesh,” we recognize that Jesus took on a human body. But did Christ take on a human soul too? Today, Barry Cooper discusses a fourth-century heresy that seems slightly off but actually makes a world of difference.www.ligonier.org
Like I said, your constant misunderstanding of what is being said leads you to constant misrepresentation.yes if it quacks like a duck. has a bill like a duck, waddles like a duck, webbed feet like a duck, feathers like a duck then by all means its a duck.
From the "Apollinarianism -Ligonier Ministries link:
Did He have a human soul too?
If your answer to that is no, and you imagine Jesus as being a divine soul in a human body, that’s actually a heresy called Apollinarianism.
Both genez and I have said He always had a human soul. A body was prepared for him, not a body and soul which is what you contend was prepared.
So your duck is a quack.
There you go again, claiming that Jesus has a human soul separate from his body. By doing so, you are ascribing physical death to Jesus. That's the definition of physical death. Any attempt to redefine the standard definition of physical death (separation of soul and body) will be denied. If you have a problem with that, you can register a complaint at your nearest Christian Mortuary & Church.
His humanity is in union with Eternal Life. Think about it!
You constantly limit Him to His human limitations. That position doesn't kick in until the Incarnation when he gets a body and becomes as a man.
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Your thinking does not conform to universal definitions and so you are forced to pontificate new definitions. Sorry, you do not possess the authority of an Emporer nor a Pharoah to do so. What you can do is petition your redefinition at the next Mortuary Convention. Good luck with that. You'll need it.
civic
Well-known member
Which began at the Incarnation- His birth as a man.
How could He be birthed as a man if He had no humanity? You would have His humanity created in time? He who is God over all, uncreated and created at a later time in one person. How does that even work?Which began at the Incarnation- His birth as a man.
Guess you never got the memo .... He is God, specifically God the Son, Spirit and soul united in one person. The exact same person who had a body prepared for Him so he could come into this world as a man. Only then, could He be subject to your definitions.
Your thinking doesn't get past your nose. Good luck with that. You'll need it.
You still don't get it. They're not my definition. They're universal definitions (both Biblical and Ecclesiological) that your pontifications are violating without any impunity whatsoever.
Carry on with issuing out memos that contain imaginary definitions that do not conform either to the Word of God or to Christology.
You're the one who isn't getting it. He couldn't die until He became as a man born into this world. Your inability to comprehend souls can exist without a body, even more so when that soul is in union with Deity in the one person who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Our souls, created by God, are imputed to our bodies at birth. His soul was uniquely begotten in "eternity past". The only perfect soul. You keep treating the Lord as if He is a human being in the world and subject to all the limitations of being a human being. That did not occur until a body was prepared for Him and He was born into this world and that was a position He took on from His own free will. If He denies Himself the right to function in His Deity in the Incarnation (and He did), then what is left to take up function in that body? You have Him having a soul that is created in time. How can His soul be created when nothing that is created exists apart from Him being already? You have a catch 22 or a person who is so broken up in their being one has to question, "how can they be"?
It is our souls that make us human. Having a body makes us alive in this world as a human being. When you understand that, then you might finally understand what I have been saying to you.
(but I'm not holding my breath)
I've said all I'm going to say on the matter. You have a nice Day.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus did not have any human soul prior to His conception in the womb.You're the one who isn't getting it. He couldn't die until He became as a man born into this world. Your inability to comprehend souls can exist without a body, even more so when that soul is in union with Deity in the one person who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Our souls, created by God, are imputed to our bodies at birth. His soul was uniquely begotten in "eternity past". The only perfect soul. You keep treating the Lord as if He is a human being in the world and subject to all the limitations of being a human being. That did not occur until a body was prepared for Him and He was born into this world and that was a position He took on from His own free will. If He denies Himself the right to function in His Deity in the Incarnation (and He did), then what is left to take up function in that body? You have Him having a soul that is created in time. How can His soul be created when nothing that is created exists apart from Him being already? You have a catch 22 or a person who is so broken up in their being one has to question, "how can they be"?
It is our souls that make us human. Having a body makes us alive in this world as a human being. When you understand that, then you might finally understand what I have been saying to you.
(but I'm not holding my breath)
I've said all I'm going to say on the matter. You have a nice Day.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Where does the Bible say that angels are made in the image and likeness of God? I must have missed that verse?Because Father, Son and Spirit are distinct personas for a reason.
We are made in the image and likeness of God. Which person of the Trinity do you think we resemble?
Angels are made in the image and likeness of God. Which person of the Trinity do you think they resemble? (the Angel of the Lord)
God is a trinity for the sake of His creation, not for Himself. He doesn't need to be a Trinity to know Himself.
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