An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

[synergy]

I strongly see will as an attribute of personhood rather than nature.

Nature is like a generic blueprint, it doesn't include the individuality of each soul.

The will is a personal thing, not a non-personal thing: few things are more personal than our wills, our very center of agency, the place where we play God of our own destiny and make our choices.

When you ask how something can be created and uncreated, you are asking something that applies to all forms of anyone who believes in the incarnation, not just my personal view.

And the way God does that is by squaring the circle, he just does it, I believe God is fundamentally above logic itself.

We oftentimes speak of human will, not human wills. Also we say God's will, not God's wills. What gives human will its "plurality" is that we all possess the God-given ability to make personal choices, aka: personal free will. Our decision making is personal.

Everyone possesses an inate human will that you did not personally design. That's part of your God-given nature. What you do with it is based on your personality and personal choice. When the Bible says that God wills to save everyone it's attesting to God's desire for that not necessarily what He will personally decree to do.

Any permanent separation between humanity and Divinity is by definition Nestorian. Just for your information, Nestorius went as far as separating Christ's Personhood into two, which I don't think you believe.

 

[Diserner]

We oftentimes speak of human will, not human wills. Also we say God's will, not God's wills. What gives human will its "plurality" is that we all possess the God-given ability to make personal choices, aka: personal free will. Our decision making is personal.

Any permanent separation between humanity and Divinity is by definition Nestorian. Just for your information, Nestorius went as far as separating Christ's Personhood into two, which I don't think you believe.

I'm not sure if you ever actually read through my OP but here was some thoughts about this:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-honest-inquiry-into-the-nature-of-christology-by-a-trinitarian.196/#post-3616

 

[GeneZ]

Based on the standard definition of physical death (separation of soul and body) you are in fact ascribing physical death to the preincarnate Word, who you say had a soul but no body yet. Case closed.

Your kind of definition is used for secular law.

Paul's words say you do not have it right when it refers to the believer.

​

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, ​

and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8​

Jesus called what you call physical death "sleep-" not death.

​

These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, ​

but I go that I may wake him up.” John 11:11​

Why sleep?
Because when we sleep?
Though our soul is thinking and living, we enter into a state of not being body conscious.

 

[synergy]

Your kind of definition is used for secular law.

Paul's words say you do not have it right when it refers to the believer.

​

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, ​

and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8​

Jesus called what you call physical death "sleep-" not death.

​

These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, ​

but I go that I may wake him up.” John 11:11​

Why sleep?
Because when we sleep?
Though our soul is thinking and living, we enter into a state of not being body conscious.

So now you want to ascribe "sleep" to the preincarnate Word, who you say had a soul but no body yet. Sorry, that's still not befitting of the Uncreated Word of God.

 

[GeneZ]

So now you want to ascribe "sleep" to the preincarnate Word, who you say had a soul but no body yet. Sorry, that's still not befitting of the Uncreated Word of God.

You are making a the same mistake over and over again...
He was not living as a human before the Incarnation.
That is why it says in Philippians 2:6-8 he had to make himself 'become as a man.'
For he was being something 'other' before the Incarnation.

For Jesus' Soul was being the Lord God of Israel, being a union of Soul and Deity - having no human body.

Question: Do you really want to understand this?

 

[synergy]

I'm not sure if you ever actually read through my OP but here was some thoughts about this:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-honest-inquiry-into-the-nature-of-christology-by-a-trinitarian.196/#post-3616

At no point in time was Christ's human nature ever "personless". If Christ's nature was created at the moment he was incarnated then at no point in time was Christ's human nature ever in a "personless" state.

I see no incompatibility between Christ's hypostatic union and him being functional kenotic on Earth. Do you?

 

[Diserner]

I see no incompatibility between Christ's hypostatic union and him being functional kenotic on Earth. Do you?

This is a good question. Roger Olsen, another theologian of my persuasion I respect greatly, doesn't see a contradiction between the HU and FK, he sees them as compatible. You can read his views here:

Kenotic Christology Explained And Defended

Kenotic Christology Explained and Defended Throughout my career as student and professor of theology I have often talked and written about “kenotic

www.patheos.com

I think I would have to make some tweaks to the HU to get it to work.

 

[synergy]

This is a good question. Roger Olsen, another theologian of my persuasion I respect greatly, doesn't see a contradiction between the HU and FK, he sees them as compatible. You can read his views here:

Kenotic Christology Explained And Defended

Kenotic Christology Explained and Defended Throughout my career as student and professor of theology I have often talked and written about “kenotic

www.patheos.com

I think I would have to make some tweaks to the HU to get it to work.

What tweaks would you propose?

 

[Diserner]

What tweaks would you propose?

The problem I have with HU is it keeps the divine attributes lights fully "ON," there is literally no difference.

In fact HU proponents make a REALLY big deal out of this, you cannot have the divine nature of Jesus dormant in any sense.

So the divine soul became a human soul, the Word became flesh—sure it's "hypostatically" linked, but one side has been made dormant.

I would see the human Jesus' will and mind and emotions as an extension of the divine will, mind and emotions—not a duplication.

It's the same will, the same mind (limited as flesh), the same emotions (also limited incarnate), and thus the same soul—transferred as a human.

 

[synergy]

The problem I have with HU is it keeps the divine attributes lights fully "ON," there is literally no difference.

In fact HU proponents make a REALLY big deal out of this, you cannot have the divine nature of Jesus dormant in any sense.

So the divine soul became a human soul, the Word became flesh—sure it's "hypostatically" linked, but one side has been made dormant.

I would see the human Jesus' will and mind and emotions as an extension of the divine will, mind and emotions—not a duplication.

It's the same will, the same mind (limited as flesh), the same emotions (also limited incarnate), and thus the same soul—transferred as a human.

Let me give your statements the time and thought they deserve. It's getting late and I'll get back as soon as I can. Have a nice night.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus must be in all ways human if he is to save us. If his soul is not human but divine, as GZ seems to claim, then we have a massive problem on our hands.

Honestly mate, he has said it often enough. His soul is human. Spirit/Deity/God and Soul/Humanity/man united in one person.

The common standard definition of physical death is separation of soul and body.

..... for a human being. Is Christ a human being or is He God?

 

[civic]

So now you want to ascribe "sleep" to the preincarnate Word, who you say had a soul but no body yet. Sorry, that's still not befitting of the Uncreated Word of God.

Yikes the false teachings keep piling on

 

[civic]

Honestly mate, he has said it often enough. His soul is human. Spirit/Deity/God and Soul/Humanity/man united in one person.


..... for a human being. Is Christ a human being or is He God?

Nope he said Jesus had a soul before the Incarnation and the Father and Holy Spirit do not have souls. Another false teaching about the Trinity.

 

[civic]

The problem I have with HU is it keeps the divine attributes lights fully "ON," there is literally no difference.

In fact HU proponents make a REALLY big deal out of this, you cannot have the divine nature of Jesus dormant in any sense.

So the divine soul became a human soul, the Word became flesh—sure it's "hypostatically" linked, but one side has been made dormant.

I would see the human Jesus' will and mind and emotions as an extension of the divine will, mind and emotions—not a duplication.

It's the same will, the same mind (limited as flesh), the same emotions (also limited incarnate), and thus the same soul—transferred as a human.

Yes since Jesus was fully God lacking nothing in His Deity. His Divine attributes are no more dormant than the Fathers or Holy Spirits Divine nature/attributes are dormant. Jesus Person is Divine.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

You are making a the same mistake over and over again...
He was not living as a human before the Incarnation.
That is why it says in Philippians 2:6-8 he had to make himself 'become as a man.'
For he was being something 'other' before the Incarnation.

For Jesus' Soul was being the Lord God of Israel, being a union of Soul and Deity - having no human body.

Question: Do you really want to understand this?

No since its unbiblical. Do the Father and Holy Spirit have this same soul that the Pre-Incarnate Son has that you claim ? yes or no

 

[synergy]

The problem I have with HU is it keeps the divine attributes lights fully "ON," there is literally no difference.

In fact HU proponents make a REALLY big deal out of this, you cannot have the divine nature of Jesus dormant in any sense.

The Transfiguration says it best. At the Transfiguration, Jesus chose to unveil his Divinity to the 3 disciples. That proves that His blazing Divine attributes are "fully ON" at all times. At all other times on Earth, he chose to veil that reality so that he didn't overwhelm the common person.

So the divine soul became a human soul, the Word became flesh—sure it's "hypostatically" linked, but one side has been made dormant.

There's nothing "dormant" about the Transfiguration.

I would see the human Jesus' will and mind and emotions as an extension of the divine will, mind and emotions—not a duplication.

It's the same will, the same mind (limited as flesh), the same emotions (also limited incarnate), and thus the same soul—transferred as a human.

You're saying that the Preincarnate Word had a soul before he had a body. You're falling into the same Apollinarian mistakes that our two other good friends are stuck in.

1. The separation of soul and body is by definition physical death which I'm sure does not befit the Word of God.
2. How can anything divine (uncreated) become human (created)? If that's the case, then it ceases to be uncreated. You might split it into two (uncreated and created) but that takes you right into Nestorianism.

 

[civic]

The Transfiguration says it best. At the Transfiguration, Jesus chose to unveil his Divinity to the 3 disciples. That proves that His blazing Divine attributes are "fully ON" at all times. At all other times on Earth, he chose to veil that reality so that he didn't overwhelm the common person.

There's nothing "dormant" about the Transfiguration.

You're saying that the Preincarnate Word had a soul before he had a body. You're falling into the same Apollinarian mistakes that our two other good friends are stuck in.

1. The separation of soul and body is by definition physical death which I'm sure does not befit the Word of God.
2. How can anything divine (uncreated) become human (created)? If that's the case, then it ceases to be uncreated. You might split it into two (uncreated and created) but that takes you right into Nestorianism.

Ditto

 

[Diserner]

That proves that His blazing Divine attributes are "fully ON" at all times.

It does no such thing—that's a non sequitur.

If it proved that, then the Transfiguration would be nothing unusual, it would be nothing "out of the ordinary," just another day in the life of Jesus.

So I would have to strongly take issue with your conclusion, and say it in fact indicates the opposite of what you assert.

The Transfiguration was flipping the lights ON for just a moment—just to show he could.

You're saying that the Preincarnate Word had a soul before he had a body. You're falling into the same Apollinarian mistakes that our two other good friends are stuck in.

All persons have souls. That has nothing to do with Apollinarianism, you've just latched on to some name.

If anything I'm more similar to Eutychius.

1. The separation of soul and body is by definition physical death which I'm sure does not befit the Word of God.

The SEPARATING. Not "just being separated from." The preincarnate Word HAD NO BODY TO BE SEPARATE FROM.

You're making a lot of logical errors.

1. How can anything divine (uncreated) become human (created)? If that's the case, then it ceases to be uncreated.

Non sequitur, also this denies the incarnation.

God is "supernatural," that is he can do things you think are impossible.

Like create everything out of nothing, like resurrect from the dead, like suffer for your sins before you even commit them.

1. You might split it into two (uncreated and created) but that takes you right into Nestorianism.

You've latched onto a couple names you just want to cram into everything—branch out, read more, learn a few more names.

Your own beliefs, and a couple on here with similar strange ideas about what a "soul" means, could use more exposure.

Ditto

I bet $100 you didn't even read the whole post carefully, lol.

 

[Rockson]

Nope he said Jesus had a soul before the Incarnation and the Father and Holy Spirit do not have souls. Another false teaching about the Trinity.

On that subject I recall what he said about it. I didn't even mind what he said about a few things but he took it into the ditch by contriving weird ways of using words like soul which could never be found in the text of scripture. When people do that anything good one might want to say get's lost in the shuffle.

 

[sawdust]

Nope he said Jesus had a soul before the Incarnation and the Father and Holy Spirit do not have souls. Another false teaching about the Trinity.

So? How does that make His soul Deity? Correct, the Father and Spirit do not have souls, that is why they are three distinct personas in One, a Trinity.
In your Trinity there is no distinction.