An Article on free will

[atpollard]

Jesus revealed that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of righteousness and Jesus is the Lord of Righteousness. There is definitely drawing of the world to Jesus being manifested here.

I have quoted and discussed the actual words of both Romans 1:18-20 and John 12:32 at length. You will need to provide more than your “say so” to convince me otherwise.
… your opinion is noted.

Peter was called worse than that by Jesus. He was called Satan by Jesus and he's definitely saved, without a doubt.

Show me the verse that describes someone as a child of Satan/devil prior to their salvation and I will happily agree. Until then, I must note that Ephesians 2 calls them “children of wrath” and not “children of the devil”.

When scripture speaks of “children of the devil” it speaks of the reprobate and apostate (not mere sinners). Provide evidence to support your claim (as I cannot prove a negative).

Was Peter, in fact, Satan … or was Jesus making some other point?

 

[synergy]

I have quoted and discussed the actual words of both Romans 1:18-20 and John 12:32 at length. You will need to provide more than your “say so” to convince me otherwise.
… your opinion is noted.

John 16:7-8 is not my opinion. It is the word of God. The Holy Spirit will convict the world of righteousness and Jesus is the Lord of Righteousness. There is definitely drawing of the world to Jesus being manifested here.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Show me the verse that describes someone as a child of Satan/devil prior to their salvation and I will happily agree. Until then, I must note that Ephesians 2 calls them “children of wrath” and not “children of the devil”.

When scripture speaks of “children of the devil” it speaks of the reprobate and apostate (not mere sinners). Provide evidence to support your claim (as I cannot prove a negative).

Was Peter, in fact, Satan … or was Jesus making some other point?

Even if they're called children of wrath, my point still stands. Peter was called satan, the worst title imaginable, before he was saved at the Cross, where we are all saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, we will need to agree to disagree.

• Romans 1 does not mean that people are drawn to Jesus as John 12:32 claims without ever even hearing about him.
• Jesus saves “sinners” and not Children of the Devil.

There is nothing to be gained by arguing this further.

You have stated that you are unable to prove my points because it would be trying to prove a negative.

YOU have asked ME to prove a negative and I've done my best, biblically, to do so.

Here is the negative you want me to prove:
Reprobates cannot be saved.

Why is this a negative?

Because...the NT does not teach the concept of "reprobates".
There is no such category of persons in the NT.

This is a category of persons that was invented by the reformed/calvinist theologians of the 1500's.

I maintain that there are only TWO categories of persons in salvation economy in the NT:
1. Those that are not saved.
2. Those that are saved.


YOU have created a third category ----(the reprobate) because of your theoligical understanding...----
which is not found in the NT but only in the writings of John Calvin...and others I'm sure,,,but I'm familiar with the writings of Calvin.


You also have claimed that there is no such understanding in the NT of the unsaved being children of satan.
I've posted at least 4 verses that clearly state Jesus calling persons children of satan.

So, yes, we must agree to disagree because your position is not biblical.


Also, in post 9621 to @synergy,,,you state that you've addressed Romans 1:18-20.
I have not read anything explaining how Romans 1:18-21 states anything other than the following teachings:

1. God has always revealed Himself to mankind.
2. Mankind has had the choice to accept God or not.
3. This is the reason why mankind will have no excuse when each individual person stands before God for judgment.

 

[Kermos]

Every living soul has free will to choose the LORD—to love and believe in God.

Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV) 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Think about it.
Selah

Have you thought about it? In the Spirit, I pray about it.

The Sovereignty of God dictates man's destiny according to this passage, and nothing in the passage supports your "Every living soul has free will to choose the LORD—to love and believe in God" - missing keywords of "choose" and "free will":

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose, for those, whom He foreknew and predestined, to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers, those, whom then He predestined, and these He called, and, whom He called, these also He justified. Whom, then, He justified, these also He glorified.
(Romans 8:26-30)
​

@Selah, you omitted a God glorifyingly crucial opening part of the passage from your quotation for some reason. Notice Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul's expanded passage attributes control to God with the Spirit also helps our weakness in (Romans 8:26) which is bitter in Free-willians.

To @Selah and @Eternally-Grateful (due to your "Like" of @Selah's post),

Notice further, the beautiful passage with those, whom He foreknew and predestined (Romans 8:29) which emphasizes the Sovereignty of God and the complete dependence of man upon God.

Now let's revisit your "Every living soul has free will to choose the LORD—to love and believe in God" which is a direct contradiction of we saints knowing that we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words (Romans 8:26).

God gave me a new heart with love of God in this heart at the time the Holy Spirit of the Living God birthed me a new man (see this prior post #9,321 to you for Holy Scripture quotations and citations). God, without exception, makes this the promised Way of God's Deliverance from the wrath of God for every Christian (John 14:6, (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians believe Almighty God causes that which God knows beforehand to unavoidably occur, that is, destined to occur beforehand, all according to God's Way (John 14:6), Praise be to God!!!

 

[atpollard]

You have stated that you are unable to prove my points because it would be trying to prove a negative.

I cannot prove that something is NOT in the Bible except by posting every verse in the Bible and saying ... "See, it is not there."
That is what is meant by "proving a negative".

I never asked you to prove that something is NOT in the Bible.
I asked questions which you answered.

We (you and I) disagree on fundamental realities (like whether someone can be drawn to and choose to reject Jesus when they have never even heard of him). Therefore, there is nothing to be gained by you and I continuing to argue over that question.

 

[atpollard]

Also, in post 9621 to @synergy,,,you state that you've addressed Romans 1:18-20.
I have not read anything explaining how Romans 1:18-21 states anything other than the following teachings:

1. God has always revealed Himself to mankind.
2. Mankind has had the choice to accept God or not.
3. This is the reason why mankind will have no excuse when each individual person stands before God for judgment.

My exact response to Romans 1:18-20 as it applies to John 12:32 was ...

Romans 1:18-20 speaks of a general knowledge of “a god” … that He exists … and limited data on His eternal attributes. That is what Romans 1 says. That is not the same as knowledge of Jesus lifted up (crucified) to draw “all” to Jesus (as John 12:32 speaks of).

So the knowledge that there is an eternal God and you are worshiping a man-made idol is enough knowledge to condemn and earn the anger of God, but it is not enough knowledge to draw one to the Crucified and Resurrected Jesus Christ as their savior. Romans 1 does not fulfill John 12.

Romans 1 is about the anger of God towards those that worship IDOLS instead of the Eternal Creator.

John 12:32 is about SALVATION through Jesus Christ and requires knowledge of Jesus Christ:

• John 6:44-45 [ESV] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
• Romans 10:8-17 [ESV] But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

We disagree on those who have not heard being drawn to Jesus. I stand with the scripture I have posted and Romans 1 does not abrogate John 6 and Romans 10, it only condemns idol worshipers.

[I trust THAT is clear enough of an explanation.]

 

[atpollard]

John 16:7-8 is not my opinion. It is the word of God. The Holy Spirit will convict the world of righteousness and Jesus is the Lord of Righteousness. There is definitely drawing of the world to Jesus being manifested here.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

1. "is not my opinion. It is the word of God": You did not present any verses when you made your blanket statement, so the "attitude" of your last post is unwarranted. It was appropriate of me to demand Scripture to back up your opinions before considering them.
2. How do you reconcile this with: Romans 10:14-15 [ESV] How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" ... Did Paul just get it wrong and the HOLY SPIRIT was going to bring the news without needing to send anyone?
3. Itzcoatl died in 1440, so Jesus was "lifted up" 1400 years before Itzcoatl died. The Gospel arrived in the Americas after 1490. How was Itzcoatl "drawn" to Jesus as he offered his living victims to honor his winged snake god?

Even if they're called children of wrath, my point still stands. Peter was called satan, the worst title imaginable, before he was saved at the Cross, where we are all saved.

Are you actually advocating that Jesus was being literal? Peter was Satan and the Snake in the Garden became an Apostle?

As first Pope and progenitor of the evil that came out of Rome in his name ... I am tempted to agree. However, I think that Jesus was making a different point.

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot prove that something is NOT in the Bible except by posting every verse in the Bible and saying ... "See, it is not there."
That is what is meant by "proving a negative".

I never asked you to prove that something is NOT in the Bible.
I asked questions which you answered.

We (you and I) disagree on fundamental realities (like whether someone can be drawn to and choose to reject Jesus when they have never even heard of him). Therefore, there is nothing to be gained by you and I continuing to argue over that question.

How about proving that there are reprobates in the NT?
This would be, according to Reformed theology,
persons that God has PASSED OVER and thus will never be saved.

IOW,,,,not because they will never believe...
but because God passed them over.

YOU asked ME to prove a negative...
and I did.

So no use explaining to me what proving a negative means.

 

[brightfame52]

@synergy

Jesus revealed that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of righteousness and Jesus is the Lord of Righteousness. There is definitely drawing of the world to Jesus being manifested here.

Thats the regenerating of the world of the elect, from all over the world. The Holy Spirits work here is inward and revelatory of the Righteousness of Christ, He also delivers from unbelief and gives Faith in Christ. Its the world of the elect being drawn to Christ

 

[GodsGrace]

My exact response to Romans 1:18-20 as it applies to John 12:32 was ...


Romans 1 is about the anger of God towards those that worship IDOLS instead of the Eternal Creator.

This is why God is angry in Romans 1:18-20, verses 17-25
God is angry with man for many reasons:


17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Unbelief and Its Consequences​

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
As the title for Romans 1:18-20 states....God's wrath is toward UNBELIEF.
Adam lost his rapport with God because he believed satan instead of God.

Above Paul teaches that man has always been aware of God...
even before Jesus....so your point is not relevant.
I even posted re the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant....

God's wrath is upon:
1. All unrighteousness
2. All ungodliness
3. Unbelief
4. Dishonor and unthankfulness
5. Exchanging the truth of God for a lie....in this case it does mean idolatry....the True God was not honored.

THIS is why they will be without excuse...
because they had the opportunity to worship the one, true God because they could know about Him through creation...
and yet they did not.

The idol worshipping is secondary....there are other reasons in Romans 1:18-20 that will bring one under the wrath of God.

John 12:32 is about SALVATION through Jesus Christ and requires knowledge of Jesus Christ:

• John 6:44-45 [ESV] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-

John 6:44

The Father draws EVERYONE.
Either through revelation - Romans 1:18-20
or through His Son.

God leaves NO ONE out of the opportunity to be saved.
ALL men everywhere on earth can be saved if they desire to be saved.

And your idea of NO ONE CAN COME TO ME is also false. (total inability)
I've posted tens of verses stating and commanding that we are to seek God.
Persons DO have the ability to come to God.

Matthew 6:33
33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Jeremiah 29:13
13You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
There are MANY more verses that teach us or even command us to seek God.


Now let's check out UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM.
As I've said,,,God Father draws everyone...He desires ALL PERSON to seek Him....
this is also taught in Romans 1:18-20.....all men will have no excuse because all men have had an opportunity to worship God.

To say nothing of the fact that if we want to accept the word DRAW as the reformed understand it...
then John 12:32 creates universalism.


EVERYONE WHO HAS HEARD AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER comes to Me:
Everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father will be given to Jesus for salvation.
We must learn too, and not only hear.
As James said: Be doers of the word and not only HEARERS.
It's of no use to God if we only hear the word...
we must act on it.....we must desire to be saved.
Only hearing the gospel is not sufficient.

• -
• Romans 10:8-17 [ESV] But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

You won't get any argument from me!
If only you believed the above.
It states what we must do to be saved....
it does NOT state that God decrees who will be saved.

This is what we must do to be saved, by your verses:

1. Confess Jesus is Lord.
2. Believe in our heart in the resurrection.
3. Call on Him. (all who call on Him).
4. We are saved by faith...which could come from hearing now that we have the gospel.
And before??

Jesus was ALWAYS the Savior:

2 Timothy 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


Verse 9: God calls us, God always makes the first move, according to His PURPOSE (predestination is always for method or purpose) by God's grace found in Christ Jesus FROM ALL ETERNITY.

Verse 10: But NOW Jesus has been revealed to us.
As I've said....God's ULTIMATE revelation to mankind.

We disagree on those who have not heard being drawn to Jesus. I stand with the scripture I have posted and Romans 1 does not abrogate John 6 and Romans 10, it only condemns idol worshipers.

The NT does not condemn only idol worshippers.
You make it sound like this is all it does.

You also are stating what every Calvinist states....
that billions are going to hell because they've never heard of Jesus.

This is NOT what the NT teaches.

The NT teaches that we are to SEEK GOD....
and OBEY GOD.

Jesus is God...
why do you separate Him from the Godhead?

If one believes in Jesus, they are believing in God.
If one believes in God Father, they are believing in Jesus for their salvation.

I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.
John 10:30

[I trust THAT is clear enough of an explanation.]

It's clear.
I don't agree with it and I'm stating why.

 

[civic]

I have quoted and discussed the actual words of both Romans 1:18-20 and John 12:32 at length. You will need to provide more than your “say so” to convince me otherwise.
… your opinion is noted.


Show me the verse that describes someone as a child of Satan/devil prior to their salvation and I will happily agree. Until then, I must note that Ephesians 2 calls them “children of wrath” and not “children of the devil”.

When scripture speaks of “children of the devil” it speaks of the reprobate and apostate (not mere sinners). Provide evidence to support your claim (as I cannot prove a negative).

Was Peter, in fact, Satan … or was Jesus making some other point?

1 John 3:7-10
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 

[atpollard]

How about proving that there are reprobates in the NT?
This would be, according to Reformed theology,
persons that God has PASSED OVER and thus will never be saved.

Sure ...

Romans 1:18-32 [ESV]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. ​

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. ​

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. ​

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.​

This is "reprobate".

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 [ESV]

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Note that those that do these acts "will not inherit the kingdom of God" (that is the definition of "reprobate"). Note also that in 1 Corinthians, "such WERE some of you" ... "unrighteous" (aka. sinners) ... but:

1. "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"
2. Those in Romans 1 ... "God gave them up"
3. That is the difference between a "slave of sin" and a "Child of the Devil" (but you will never agree).

Galatians 5:19-21 [ESV]
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Again, those that do such things "will not inherit the kingdom of God" (the definition of "reprobate"). The "saints" are delivered from such things. For those in Romans 1 "God gave them up" to this exact list of things ... things that indicate they "will not inherit the kingdom of God". Exactly as the "reformed" claim the reprobate are ... sinners handed by God over to immorality that will never inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[atpollard]

1 John 3:7-10
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Does a tare become wheat and a goat become a sheep?
I know it is popular in the 21st century to think that people can choose to change gender or even species by simply claiming it to be so, but in an agrarian society, they knew what every farmer and gardener knows ... a weed is a weed and will never suddenly transform into a different plant. A cat is a cat and will never suddenly become a bird. a goat is not and will never be a sheep.

Jesus has the power to forgive sin. The bible describes that as setting free those that were enslaved. The bible never talks about the day Jesus transformed the Tares into Wheat (only the day the tares were gathered together to be burned).

There are Children of God and there are Children of the Devil ... they are not the same thing ... [Wheat and Tares; Sheep and Goats].

 

[atpollard]

This is why God is angry in Romans 1:18-20, verses 17-25
God is angry with man for many reasons:


17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Unbelief and Its Consequences​

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
As the title for Romans 1:18-20 states....God's wrath is toward UNBELIEF.
Adam lost his rapport with God because he believed satan instead of God.

Above Paul teaches that man has always been aware of God...
even before Jesus....so your point is not relevant.
I even posted re the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant....

God's wrath is upon:
1. All unrighteousness
2. All ungodliness
3. Unbelief
4. Dishonor and unthankfulness
5. Exchanging the truth of God for a lie....in this case it does mean idolatry....the True God was not honored.

THIS is why they will be without excuse...
because they had the opportunity to worship the one, true God because they could know about Him through creation...
and yet they did not.

The idol worshipping is secondary....there are other reasons in Romans 1:18-20 that will bring one under the wrath of God.


John 6:44

The Father draws EVERYONE.
Either through revelation - Romans 1:18-20
or through His Son.

God leaves NO ONE out of the opportunity to be saved.
ALL men everywhere on earth can be saved if they desire to be saved.

And your idea of NO ONE CAN COME TO ME is also false. (total inability)
I've posted tens of verses stating and commanding that we are to seek God.
Persons DO have the ability to come to God.

Matthew 6:33
33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Jeremiah 29:13
13You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
There are MANY more verses that teach us or even command us to seek God.


Now let's check out UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM.
As I've said,,,God Father draws everyone...He desires ALL PERSON to seek Him....
this is also taught in Romans 1:18-20.....all men will have no excuse because all men have had an opportunity to worship God.

To say nothing of the fact that if we want to accept the word DRAW as the reformed understand it...
then John 12:32 creates universalism.


EVERYONE WHO HAS HEARD AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER comes to Me:
Everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father will be given to Jesus for salvation.
We must learn too, and not only hear.
As James said: Be doers of the word and not only HEARERS.
It's of no use to God if we only hear the word...
we must act on it.....we must desire to be saved.
Only hearing the gospel is not sufficient.




You won't get any argument from me!
If only you believed the above.
It states what we must do to be saved....
it does NOT state that God decrees who will be saved.

This is what we must do to be saved, by your verses:

1. Confess Jesus is Lord.
2. Believe in our heart in the resurrection.
3. Call on Him. (all who call on Him).
4. We are saved by faith...which could come from hearing now that we have the gospel.
And before??

Jesus was ALWAYS the Savior:

2 Timothy 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


Verse 9: God calls us, God always makes the first move, according to His PURPOSE (predestination is always for method or purpose) by God's grace found in Christ Jesus FROM ALL ETERNITY.

Verse 10: But NOW Jesus has been revealed to us.
As I've said....God's ULTIMATE revelation to mankind.


The NT does not condemn only idol worshippers.
You make it sound like this is all it does.

You also are stating what every Calvinist states....
that billions are going to hell because they've never heard of Jesus.

This is NOT what the NT teaches.

The NT teaches that we are to SEEK GOD....
and OBEY GOD.

Jesus is God...
why do you separate Him from the Godhead?

If one believes in Jesus, they are believing in God.
If one believes in God Father, they are believing in Jesus for their salvation.

I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.
John 10:30

It's clear.
I don't agree with it and I'm stating why.

This is such a load of nonsense.

What does John 12:32 SAY and what does it MEAN?

That was the issue. You want to discuss EVERYTHING EXCEPT that one verse.

 

[civic]

Does a tare become wheat and a goat become a sheep?
I know it is popular in the 21st century to think that people can choose to change gender or even species by simply claiming it to be so, but in an agrarian society, they knew what every farmer and gardener knows ... a weed is a weed and will never suddenly transform into a different plant. A cat is a cat and will never suddenly become a bird. a goat is not and will never be a sheep.

Jesus has the power to forgive sin. The bible describes that as setting free those that were enslaved. The bible never talks about the day Jesus transformed the Tares into Wheat (only the day the tares were gathered together to be burned).

There are Children of God and there are Children of the Devil ... they are not the same thing ... [Wheat and Tares; Sheep and Goats].

Is a demon possessed person a child of the devil ? Yes or no

 

[atpollard]

Is a demon possessed person a child of the devil ? Yes or no

No. Children DESIRE (willfully seek) to be like their parent. Possession is enslavement.

[I think answering a question with a question is a form of avoiding the question.]
Does a tare become wheat and a goat become a sheep?

 

[civic]

No. Children DESIRE (willfully seek) to be like their parent. Possession is enslavement.

[I think answering a question with a question is a form of avoiding the question.]
Does a tare become wheat and a goat become a sheep?

Nice try avoiding the obvious .

A person with the Holy Spirit in them are children of God

A person with the spirit of demons in them are children of the devil.

 

[atpollard]

Nice try avoiding the obvious .

A person with the Holy Spirit in them are children of God

A person with the spirit of demons in them are children of the devil.

Is salvation the angelic equivalent of demonic possession? Equal but opposite like you suggest?
(and I thought Hyper-calvinists were scary)

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure ...

Romans 1:18-32 [ESV]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. ​

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. ​

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. ​

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.​

This is "reprobate".

No. The above is not referring to REPROBATE persons.
There is no such thing as a reprobate person in the NT, or in the bible.

The above verses state that God GAVE THEM UP to their own minds...
to their own passions...
their own evils...etc.

It does NOT say what REPROBATE means in Reformed theology.

God is not passing over anyone is any of the above verses.
He is just leaving the person to himself.....
to however the person wants to freely behave.

You will not find any verses relating to these reprobate persons John Calvin taught about.
Because John Calvin is not teaching the NT as it is understood by Christianity from the beginning of its inception.

Grace is resistible.
Wherever the NT states that someone was UNWILLING,,,it means that they resisted grace..they resisted the call of God.
NOT because God passed over them and did not desire to save them...
but because they themselver do not wish to be saved.

The reformed read everything they believe INTO scripture.
They read what is not there.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 [ESV]

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

The same.
See above.

Who will not inherit the Kingdom of God?
Those whom you have posted.....
or those God chooses not to save?

Note that those that do these acts "will not inherit the kingdom of God" (that is the definition of "reprobate"). Note also that in 1 Corinthians, "such WERE some of you" ... "unrighteous" (aka. sinners) ... but:

No sir.
That is not the definition of reprobate.
What you have posted is the definition of unsaved persons that are serving satan and not God.

THIS is what REPROBATE means:

12. As the Lord by the efficacy of his calling accomplishes towards his elect the salvation to which he had by his eternal counsel destined them, so he has judgments against the reprobate, by which he executes his counsel concerning them.

Those, therefore, whom he has created for dishonor during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, he at one time deprives of the means of hearing his word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more.



13. Why, then, while bestowing grace on the one, does he pass by the other? In regard to the former, Luke gives the reason, Because they "were ordained to eternal life," (Acts 13:48).

What, then, shall we think of the latter, but that they are vessels of wrath unto dishonor? Wherefore, let us not decline to say with Augustine, "God could change the will of the wicked into good, because he is omnipotent.

Clearly he could. Why, then, does he not do it? Because he is unwilling. Why he is unwilling remains with himself,"


source: The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragrapsh 12 and 13


God saves some...
God passes over others for the express purpose of damning them to eternal damnation.
THESE are the REPROBATES.
And why?
Because it is what He wishes to do....
For no reason that we can know.

This is the God that Calvin taught.

1. "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"
2. Those in Romans 1 ... "God gave them up"
3. That is the difference between a "slave of sin" and a "Child of the Devil" (but you will never agree).

Galatians 5:19-21 [ESV]
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Again, those that do such things "will not inherit the kingdom of God" (the definition of "reprobate"). The "saints" are delivered from such things. For those in Romans 1 "God gave them up" to this exact list of things ... things that indicate they "will not inherit the kingdom of God". Exactly as the "reformed" claim the reprobate are ... sinners handed by God over to immorality that will never inherit the Kingdom of God.

The above has been replied to above.

There are NO REPROBATES in the NT.
God passes over no one.

God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of Him.
1 Timothy 2:4

God is Love and in Him there is no darkness.
1 John 1:5

God loves the whole world and will not damn anyone to hell that does not want to be away from God.
John 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

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