An Article on free will

brightfame52 said:
@MTMattie



Yes So, u r n denial
Click to expand...
you are in denile

Like I say determinism is fatalism. :)


Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
  1. Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
    Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.
  2. Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
    Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.

Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.

Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.

According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.

The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.

As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.

Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.

Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.

calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.

hope this helps !!!
 
more evidence on fatalism=calvinism

Websters affirms this below, the calvinist affirms this with their proof texts here: Prov 16:4 ,1 Peter 2:8 and the WCF also affirms this in the confession. Romans 9 and double predestination also affirms its fatalism by the definition. As we see it makes God unjust.

fa·tal·ism | \ ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm \

Stanford encyclopedia

Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”.

This is fatalism.

1646 WCF, 3.1
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own
will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as
thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of
the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established.

1689 LBCF, 3.1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy
counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever
comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath
fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the
creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken
away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all
things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

See synonyms for: fatalism / fatalistic on Thesaurus.com
🎓 College Level

noun
the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate :Her fatalism helped her to face death with stoic calm.
Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.


conclusion: determinism is fatalism/ calvinism


from wiki

The term "fatalism" can refer to any of the following ideas:

  • Any view according to which human beings are powerless to do anything other than what they actually do.[1] Included in this is the belief that humans have no power to influence the future or indeed the outcome of their own actions.[2][3][clarification needed]
    • The belief that events are decided by fate and are outside human control
    • One such view is theological fatalism, according to which free will is incompatible with the existence of an omniscient God who has foreknowledge of all future events.[4] This is very similar to theological determinism.[a]
    • A second such view is logical fatalism, according to which propositions about the future which we take to currently be either true or false can only be true or false if future events are already determined.[1]
  • The view that the appropriate reaction to the inevitability of some future event is acceptance or resignation, rather than resistance.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism#cite_note-8 This view is closer to everyday use of the word "fatalism", and is similar to defeatism.


conclusion:

1- events/people are determined, predestined, fixed- cause
2- so humans are powerless to change them- effect
3- the very definition of fatalism
4- determinism is fatalism/ defeatism/calvinism
 
Red Baker said:
@Selah

Since you brought this up, why do not you enlighten Jim, and myself as far as that goes on the differences between sin and sins? I'm not trying to stir the pot on others disagreements, but I think you are wrong on this point, actually not even close of being correct.

Sin is the transgression of God's law ~ more than one would be sins..... that we all are guilty of when we sin.... Any one sin that we commit is always connected with being guilty of many others. Much like David's adultery~he also was guilty of deceit; not loving others as himself; blaming God for Uriah's death, and many others, etc. He basically broke every commandments with his sin, if you truly "chew the cud" on his sin!

I think you need to reconsider your statement to Jim, who himself is a very wise person when it comes to reasoning and making sound judgments.
Click to expand...
Here is a good explanation by Tom Smith:

Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Have you ever done something you knew was a sin, confessed it, and quickly found yourself doing it again? I know I have.

What’s the solution to this problem? It begins with seeing the difference between sin and sins and then applying the proper remedy to each.

“Sin” and “sins” in the Scriptures​

Concerning sins, 1 Corinthians 15:3 says , “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.” Later, 1 John 1:7 says, “…the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from every sin.” These two verses speak of our sinful acts and their remedy.

In contrast, Romans 6:6 says, “Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we may no longer serve sin as slaves.” In this verse we see “sin” as a powerful master that enslaves us and makes our body, the “body of sin.” But we can also see a wonderful remedy.

Sadly, a lack of understanding concerning the difference between these two—sin and sins—has been a source of real frustration to many seeking Christians.

So what are we missing?

The underlying problem involves a lack of spiritual sight. But there definitely is hope. The apostle Paul both diagnosed and treated the problem in Romans 1-8.

First, we need to see the fundamental difference between “sin” and “sins.”​

“Sin” singular refers to the powerful nature of sin within us. It’s like a tree that produces its fruit—“sins.” It follows then that “sins” plural refer to countless acts of sinning as the fruits of this sinful nature within us (Rom.7:8-19).

We need to be clear on this distinction because the two refer to two strikingly different problems with two different solutions.

God’s remedy for our “sins” is forgiveness by the blood of Christ.​

In the first two chapters of his classic book, The Normal Christian Life, Watchman Nee addresses these two problems—sin and sins with their two respective solutions.

We must be clear that no amount of tears, time, penance, or good deeds, can remove the record of our sins before God. Nor can it remove the stains of guilt from our conscience.

Only the blood of Jesus can deal with our sins. First John 1:7 says,

“…the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from every sin.” Then verse 9 continues, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Click to expand...
To apply God’s remedy to our “sins,” we simply need to believe God’s word and receive the effectiveness of Christ’s blood by confessing our sins to God.

God’s remedy for “sin” is deliverance by the cross of Christ.​

…
 
Prov 21
21 In the Lord’s hand the king’s heart is a stream of water
that he channels toward all who please him.
2A person may think their own ways are right,
but the Lord weighs the heart.
3To do what is right and just
is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
 
@Selah
Selah said:
Here is a good explanation by Tom Smith:
Click to expand...
No problem with quoting others understanding, but you are not clear as to exactly Mr. Smith is saying and what you believe and Watchman Nee understanding~or, if you all three are perfect in your understanding. I do not know Tom Smith, but I am familiar with Watchman Nee, whom I have read very little from but have back fifty years ago, and have forgotten all that he taught~so, I was not overly impressed with what he taught, since I did not purchased any of his booklets.
Selah said:
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Have you ever done something you knew was a sin, confessed it, and quickly found yourself doing it again? I know I have.

What’s the solution to this problem? It begins with seeing the difference between sin and sins and then applying the proper remedy to each.
Click to expand...
Selah, while I will wholeheartedly agree with the two conflicting natures of a Christian. I think you are still wrong concerning the difference between sin and sins. The flesh, or, the old man is at enmity against God, with no good thing coming from our flesh, not one. What come forth from our old man is nothing but a multitudes of SINS ~ so how in the world can you separate sin from sins, when that is all the flesh is..... SINFUL, WICKED and at enmity against God.

Mark 7:21-23​

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”

Our sinful nature is nothing but a mass of sin waiting for the opportunity to show its true nature, if unrestrained by God.
Selah said:

“Sin” and “sins” in the Scriptures​

Concerning sins, 1 Corinthians 15:3 says , “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.” Later, 1 John 1:7 says, “…the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from every sin.” These two verses speak of our sinful acts and their remedy.

In contrast, Romans 6:6 says, “Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we may no longer serve sin as slaves.” In this verse we see “sin” as a powerful master that enslaves us and makes our body, the “body of sin.” But we can also see a wonderful remedy.

Sadly, a lack of understanding concerning the difference between these two—sin and sins—has been a source of real frustration to many seeking Christians.

So what are we missing?
Click to expand...
Missing? I do not think so Selah. Yes, our old man was crucified with Christ, but we are waiting for our new body that will forever be free from sin and its temetaption, that is yet to come ~ until then, we must put off the old man with his sinful desires and lusts. Not one, but many!
Selah said:
The underlying problem involves a lack of spiritual sight.
Click to expand...
Very true.
Selah said:

First, we need to see the fundamental difference between “sin” and “sins.”​

“Sin” singular refers to the powerful nature of sin within us. It’s like a tree that produces its fruit—“sins.” It follows then that “sins” plural refer to countless acts of sinning as the fruits of this sinful nature within us (Rom.7:8-19).

We need to be clear on this distinction because the two refer to two strikingly different problems with two different solutions.

God’s remedy for our “sins” is forgiveness by the blood of Christ.​

In the first two chapters of his classic book, The Normal Christian Life, Watchman Nee addresses these two problems—sin and sins with their two respective solutions.

We must be clear that no amount of tears, time, penance, or good deeds, can remove the record of our sins before God. Nor can it remove the stains of guilt from our conscience.

Only the blood of Jesus can deal with our sins. First John 1:7 says,

To apply God’s remedy to our “sins,” we simply need to believe God’s word and receive the effectiveness of Christ’s blood by confessing our sins to God.

God’s remedy for “sin” is deliverance by the cross of Christ.​

Click to expand...
We have already been delivered, and have the earnest of the Spirit given to us ~now we waiting and desiring our new resurrected bodies that God has promised to us.

2nd Corinthians 5:1​

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:”

Selah !
 
Red Baker said:
Selah, while I will wholeheartedly agree with the two conflicting natures of a Christian. I think you are still wrong concerning the difference between sin and sins. The flesh, or, the old man is at enmity against God, with no good thing coming from our flesh, not one. What come forth from our old man is nothing but a multitudes of SINS ~ so how in the world can you separate sin from sins, when that is all the flesh is..... SINFUL, WICKED and at enmity against God.
Click to expand...
This is the SIN that our Savior bore on that Cross. Jesus took the stripes; we get the healing.

Isaiah 53:4-11 (NKJV) 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He [was] wounded for our transgressions, [He was] bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace [was] upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked-- But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor [was any] deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put [Him] to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see [His] seed, He shall prolong [His] days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, [and] be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

—Selah
 

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