An Article on free will

Red Baker said:
@synergy

Absolutely regeneration must proceed faith, any person with a little common sense ( spiritually speaking, of course...... I'm well aware of the fact that common sense is not too common anymore and folks like you prove this to me! ) of the scriptures know this to be so. I have eighteen grandchildren with the youngest almost seven, and I know without a doubt that it could take me less than five minute to explain to him when a person can and cannot hear, see and understand by pointing out to Daniel that life must proceed action and where there is no life there cannot be any action.

Then Mr Work Monger (saying this based on your pseudonym name you have chosen to use that you are so proud of) come to John 3:1-8 and let's us debate those scriptures given for the sole purpose to show God's children that regeneration must proceed true faith in the scriptures.

In the meantime, explain such scriptures as:

John 5:24​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Christ using a double verily shows us that most will not believe that which he is about to make known, so he used the double verily to point out a truth that most have never considered.
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Verily, Verily is Jesus bringing attention to something important that He is about to say.

Now let's look at
John 5:24 and figure out the ordo salutis,,,using YOUR version of the bible,,,since all versions are the same in meaning:

John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
One must HEAR the word.
THEN he can believe.
THEN he has everlasting life.
The problem is that you do not believe in free will...so you think one must be generated first and be FORCED to HEAR and be forced TO BELIEVE.

Unfortunately, John 5:24 does not state what you THINK it states.
In fact NO VERSE does because generation before salvation is not found in scripture
and
it doesn't even make any logical sense.

If a person is regenerated,,,they are made as new.
To regenerate means to make new.

If a person is already made new...why does he need to be made new again??
A born again believer.....a generated person....
does not need to be born again, again.

See also:
John 6:45
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


The above states that everyone that HEARS and LEARNS from the Father will be given to Jesus...verse 44.

Not everyone who HEARS also LEARNS.

Everyone can HEAR a teacher,,,but not everyone LEARNS from that teacher.
It's wonderful that scripture explains itself.
Red Baker said:
That truth is this: A person who can hear and believe "ALREADY HAS" everlasting life, not that he will receive life by doing so! Such a person has already passed from death unto eternal life. Truths that men like you mock. A very dangerous deed to do ~ Not understanding, or even believing this truth is one thing, but to mock this truth is altogether different act before God that He will not take lightly.
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So everlasting life comes BEFORE one hears and believes?
So why is it necessary to believe??

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Jesus says to REPENT because the Kingdom of God is at hand....coming.
I guess He didn't get the memo that one has to believe first and then repent.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Now this is funny. I just got banned from a reformed chatroom making the same argument. They claimed I was using a straw man too.

lets look again

Synergism - the combined power of two or more things when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately:

I did not come to faith by my power. And my faith and Gods work were not combined to make a greater total power achieved if it was just God working on his own.



Yes. A calvinist thinks I am synergistic because I have faith. they reject any idea I am synergetic.. I was given the power by God because I received him. I did not add my power to Gods to make a greater power.

Amen

You do not earn your salvation by repenting and believing.

it is the work of God we believe. Gods proves to us he is trustworthy as he draws us to him. I did not come to faith by my own power.. As a calvist would claim i did

No

If you work with God. your a legalist..

God alone acted in his own power. I just became like the tax collector..

lol..

not of works lest anyone should boast.

You did nto get saved by your own will..

I think John is clear.

John 1: 13 ;who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I was not born by being birthed into a Christian family

I was not born by my own power or willing my self to salvation,.

i was not born because someone else willed that I got saved
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Well, actually, EG, you DO sound a bit calvinist up above!
But I know you're not.

Just fell on this.

Plus, let me say that there are many different TYPES of calvinists.
Some new ones don't really even know what they're SUPPOSED to believe!
 
Johann said:
Great-then you are in denial of this great verse-

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God—not of works, so that no one may boast.”


The neuter pronoun τοῦτο in Ephesians 2:8 does not isolate faith from grace or salvation but refers to the entire salvation experience, which includes faith as an instrument. Thus, the grammatical and contextual evidence decisively supports the conclusion that faith itself is part of God’s gracious gift, not something generated by man.


Philippians 1:29 – “To you it has been granted...to believe in Him.”---and this--

Romans 12:6 – “Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them…”
  
Here, faith and grace are presented in parallel as divinely distributed gifts, reinforcing that even our ability to believe is by grace.

My view upholds Paul’s purpose-- salvation is entirely of God, by grace, through faith, and none may boast.

Thanks.

J.
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Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below agrees with me.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.


hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below agrees with me.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.


hope this helps !!!
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You’re now faced with a dilemma--you’re turning to commentaries to support your position, but in doing so, you're actually reinforcing the strength of my original argument. That’s not helping your case.

Shalom.

J.
 
civic said:
No it’s supporting my case
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I could explain it myself, but I’ll leave that to @Dizerner to walk you through the grammar and syntax of the verses quoted. Or better yet, why not read the verses in their full context yourself?

There’s no hidden code or mystery here--just the plain, factual truth exactly as it is written.

J.
 
civic said:
Faith is never given to an unbeliever, only to a believer as the fruit of the spirit .

hope this helps !!!
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I agree. …because an unbeliever does not trust in Jesus Christ; therefore, an unbeliever has no faith.

As for me, I don’t believe ‘trust’ is a work.

Jeremiah 17:5-8 (NKJV) 5 Thus says the LORD: “Cursed [is] the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD. 6 For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And shall not see when good comes, But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, [In] a salt land [which is] not inhabited. 7 “Blessed [is] the man who trusts in the LORD, And whose hope is the LORD. 8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit.
 
Kermos said:
The love of my and every Christian's Lord and God Jesus Christ controls us and me (2 Corinthians 5:14), but you self-willfully (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from this wonderful blessing in the love of Christ.
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If you want to discuss 2 Corinthians 5:14,,,could you please post it?
Ditto for 2 Peter 2:9-10.
Unfortunately for me....I don't have the bible completely memorized yet.

Kermos said:
This post is also to @Eternally-Grateful, @MTMattie, and @GodsGrace because of your heartfelt agreement with Jim's post.
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Our heartfelt agreement is with Jim because he teaches Christianity as Jesus taught it and all the writers of the NT.
It's Luther and folk like John Calvin that CHANGED Christianity from what is has been for 2 thousand years.
New Christianity is usually heretical Christianity since it does not teach mainline Christianity...which is what heretical means.
Kermos said:

Commands Expose Good And Evil - Not Inherent Capability Conveyance - A Hypothetical Example​


A hypothetical example, on Monday evening you take your lovely wife a hot bowl of delicious oatmeal while she's sitting on the couch, and she places the bowl on a pillow on her lap. Then your talking and toddling son sees the bowl of delicous oatmeal, and he wants some, so he shoots across the floor to the couch, and he excitedly grabs the rim of the hot bowl letting out a shrieking scream of pain from the hot bowl.

After applying soothing cream to the wound, both you and your wife explain the difference between hot and cold. You explain that hot can cause burns and pain. "Do not touch hot things" you command your son.

You continue by declaring "Your mommy and I can work around hot things to prepare and serve food, but you cannot, my love". The sobbing stops, and you all eat your dinner.

On Tuesday morning, you have the iron skillet on the stove, the gas fire keeping the iron skillet sizzling hot for a family pancake breakfast. The top of the stove radiates very HOT too, so you are sensitive to your son's current absence from the kitchen.

Your son toddles into the kitchen. You say "honey, the stove is hot, hotter than the bowl of oatmeal last night. If you touch the stove, then you'll get burned again. If you stay over there, then you'll be just fine." Then you smell that the pancake is about to burn unless you flip it, so you scrape the pancake, raise it, flip it, and you watch it drop - but as it drops, you see your precious son's hand grasp the extremely hot stove iron grill flame cover. In a flash, you dunk your excruciatingly pained and screaming child's hand in a glass of cold water, add ice, turn off the stove, examine the wound through the glass, and ...
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Great story Kermos.
I love analogies....
a father of a child is JUST LIKE GOD.

Kermos said:
The morals of the story:
  1. Monday night's command did not convey ability. The command expressed safe action - or said another way safe inaction.
  2. Monday night's declaration conveyed capabilities being that you could work around hot items while your son could not work around hot items. It is crucial to discern the exclusive nature of the declarative; one party can do something while the other party cannot do the same thing.
  3. Tuesday morning's IF/THEN logic conditionals did not convey ability. Each conditional expressed the results of actions.
  4. You cared deeply enough to help.
  5. Your son was driven by his desires - his lusts, and he disregarded your instruction; in other words, his lusts were manifest by his action.
  6. Your son's nature was to defy you despite (1) the command, (2) the declaration, and (3) the conditionals; in other words, the fruit of his nature were visible.
  7. Your son was in rebellion against you.
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Can't read the above.
I failed all my philosophy classes....

But I do have a question for you:
This child you're speaking of...
was he 8 months old or was he, like, 3 or 4?

You see Kermos...when God gives a COMMAND, he expects us to obey it.
God will NOT give us a command we are unable to keep.

That would be a silly God, don't you think?
Would YOU tell an 8 month old child to keep away from heat?
Would YOU tell an 8 month old child to go upstairs and his jammies?

Your analogy is sorely lacking.
Philosophy is a difficult subject.
Kermos said:
Point 2 is a parallel - a remote shadow at best, to when the Lord Jesus' says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, also John 15:13-15 about love and friends). It is crucial to discern the exclusive nature of the declarative; one party can do something while the other party cannot do the same thing; in other words, men cannot choose God while God chooses men.
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Actually, and I'm sure you've been told this MANY MANY times,,,even by me....
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOSE ME BUT I CHOSE YOU...is Jesus speaking to HIS APOSTLES.
Do you deny that Jesus CHOSE THE 12 APOSTLES??
Are you aware that the GREAT PRIESTLY PRAYER was for the Apostles?

Perhaps we could discuss this a bit more if you're interested.

For instance...it begins in chapter 14 when Thomas asks Jesus a question.
And then Philip. Seems they were together just before Judas betrayed Jesus.

In John 14:12 Jesus tells His Apostles that the works He does will also be done by the Apostles,,,and even greater works.
have YOU done any of these great works lately?

In John 14:22 Judas asks what Jesus has done that He is about to disclose Himself TO THEM. (The Apostles).

John 14:25 Jesus tells them that He has abided with them....you know...lived with them (The Apostles) for over 3 years.
Have YOU lived with Jesus,,,,here on earth...in human form?


There's more, but you're probably not even going to read the above, so I'll stop here.
BUT PLEASE stop posting John 15:16 as if you think it supports calvinism.
Jesus was NOT a Calvinist.
Kermos said:


Point 4 is analagous, a shadow at best, to how the Father in heaven causes the "sun to rise on [the] evil and [the] good, and sends rain on [the] righteous and [the] unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45).

Points 5 and 6 are analagous to the evilness of man as default nature. "No one is good except God alone" (The Word of God, Mark 10:18).

The example is concluded.

Commands do not convey ability; rather, commands expose the desires of the person, more specifically the heart of the person, even fruit of the person by the outcome of the person's actions.
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In the bible.....a command God gives is expected to be obeyed.

Kermos said:


One Way and one Way only (John 14:6) exists for man to respond in good to God, and this Way is ’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works in Christ for us Christians “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).
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Agreed.
Persons that practice the truth are not afraid of the light.
And, indeed, it is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us that gives us the capability of doing all our good works.

Here are some gifts of the Holy Spirit:
  • The Holy Spirit Transforms our Lives. ...
  • The Holy Spirit Convicts Us of Sin. ...
  • The Holy Spirit Guides Us to the Truth. ...
  • The Holy Spirit Empowers Us to Proclaim Christ. ...
  • The Holy Spirit Gives Us Spiritual Gifts. ...
  • The Holy Spirit Empowers Us to Worship. ...
  • The Holy Spirit Leads Us.
source: https://ftc.co/resource-library/blog-entries/the-seven-works-of-the-holy-spirit/
Kermos said:
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
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Why not post some verses that state that man has no free will?

IF you can find any.
Kermos said:
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!
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Agreed.
All Christians believe God is sovereign.
Amen.
 
Johann said:
One question--did you have any part in your salvation?

According to Scripture, salvation is the work of God from beginning to end:

Ephesians 2:8–9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast.”

Titus 3:5 – “He saved us, not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy...”
John 1:13 – “...who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Jonah 2:9 – “Salvation belongs to the LORD.”

We are indeed called to rightly handle the word of truth--

2 Timothy 2:15 – “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

If we truly cut straight the Word, we must acknowledge:

Initial salvation is God's alone--by His will, His mercy, and His grace.

No room is left for boasting, human effort, or personal contribution at the point of regeneration.

Should you think I am a "Calvinist" I'm not--

J.
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Did I have any part in my salvation. That would depend on who you would ask.

I believed in Jesus and His shed blood and His Resurrection. I believed He is the Son of God the Father. I believed the Father sent Him to earth for
what I always say was the completion of what the Father planned before time. I believed He was born of Mary and both Mary and his step Father Joseph had lineages that traced back to David... and He was who they said He was. AND I had faith in Him that He did what He said.

So does having faith and belief and a centralized understanding count as me doing anything?

I dont know, and I no longer care.

Does my reading and studying the bible and listening and learning from a bevy of pastors count for doing anything.

Then I would say Here I am Lord. Guilty as charged.

I only know I do not believe in Calvinism as my church grew into because it was patently clear in Easter service when they were talking about the old church building from 1790 and what they taught it was no where of a predestined mode....

I just dont care anymore.
 
MTMattie said:
Did I have any part in my salvation. That would depend on who you would ask.

I believed in Jesus and His shed blood and His Resurrection. I believed He is the Son of God the Father. I believed the Father sent Him to earth for
what I always say was the completion of what the Father planned before time. I believed He was born of Mary and both Mary and his step Father Joseph had lineages that traced back to David... and He was who they said He was. AND I had faith in Him that He did what He said.

So does having faith and belief and a centralized understanding count as me doing anything?

I dont know, and I no longer care.

Does my reading and studying the bible and listening and learning from a bevy of pastors count for doing anything.

Then I would say Here I am Lord. Guilty as charged.

I only know I do not believe in Calvinism as my church grew into because it was patently clear in Easter service when they were talking about the old church building from 1790 and what they taught it was no where of a predestined mode....

I just dont care anymore.
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Isaiah 42:3 (LXX & MT)

“A bruised reed He will not break, and a smouldering wick He will not quench; He will faithfully bring forth justice.”

→ This is a Messianic prophecy showing the gentleness and faithfulness of the Servant of YHWH toward those who are weak, wounded, and spiritually faint.

Matthew 12:20 (quoting Isaiah 42:3)

“A bruised reed He will not break, and a smouldering wick He will not quench, until He brings justice to victory.”
→ Christ fulfills this prophecy in His earthly ministry by dealing gently with sinners, outcasts, and the brokenhearted.

Encouragement for the “I Don’t Care Anymore” Heart

These verses are aimed at those feeling emotionally or spiritually depleted, apathetic, or at the edge of giving up.

Psalm 34:18
“The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.”

Isaiah 57:15
“For thus says the One who is high and lifted up... ‘I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.’”

Psalm 73:26
“My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.”

1 Peter 5:7
“Casting all your anxieties on Him, because He cares for you.”

Galatians 6:9
“And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.”

Isaiah 40:29–31
“He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might He increases strength... those who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength.”

Deuteronomy 33:27
“The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms.”

Lamentations 3:22–23
“The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness.”


When your soul says “I don’t care anymore,” Christ answers with “I still do.”

The bruised reed is not discarded; the smouldering wick is not extinguished. The Bible shows that even in numbness, confusion, and collapse, God draws near, revives, sustains, and restores. You may feel like giving up--but He has not given up on you.

Don't give up @MTMattie.

Shalom to you and family.

J.
 
Selah said:
Yes, I believe faith is a gift given to the believer. Thoughts?
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I've read through and might be a little confused with all the scholarly talk...of which I'm not one.
Here's what Ephesians 2:8-9 states....
WE ARE SAVED BY GOD'S GRACE,,,THROUGH FAITH,,,AND THIS IS A GIFT OF GOD.

WHAT is a gift of God?
All 3:
GRACE
SALVATION
FAITH

Faith is a gift from God but not as Calvinists would understand this.
Everything good is a gift from God.
He has allowed us to have faith in Him IF we want this gift.
Free will is not taken away...we must want the gift.

God offers the gift to us,,,,John 3:16....but we must want it.
If we believe...we will receive the gift.

Grace is surely a gift and is available to all.
Salvation is also a gift and is available to all.
Man generates BELIEF...
God gifts him FAITH.

If you read Eph 2:8 in any other language it is apparent that faith is a gift...
if you wish to go through this, I'd be happy to.
 
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.
GodsGrace said:
I've read through and might be a little confused with all the scholarly talk...of which I'm not one.
Here's what Ephesians 2:8-9 states....
WE ARE SAVED BY GOD'S GRACE,,,THROUGH FAITH,,,AND THIS IS A GIFT OF GOD.

WHAT is a gift of God?
All 3:
GRACE
SALVATION
FAITH

Faith is a gift from God but not as Calvinists would understand this.
Everything good is a gift from God.
He has allowed us to have faith in Him IF we want this gift.
Free will is not taken away...we must want the gift.

God offers the gift to us,,,,John 3:16....but we must want it.
If we believe...we will receive the gift.

Grace is surely a gift and is available to all.
Salvation is also a gift and is available to all.
Man generates BELIEF...
God gifts him FAITH.

If you read Eph 2:8 in any other language it is apparent that faith is a gift...
if you wish to go through this, I'd be happy to.
Click to expand...
Yes, we’d all learn from your contribution regarding Ephesians 2:8. Thanks, GG.
 

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