An Article on free will

[Red Baker]

@Johann

Given the syntactical structure of John 3:1-8, the broader Johannine theology, and cross-referenced passages,

Greetings Johann,

I agree that when considering any passage, the broader Johannine theology, and cross-referenced passages, by all of the prophets and apostles are necessary to come to the knowledge of the truth. Before God, we truly appreciate your diligence in laboring to come to the knowledge of the truth and the spirit in which you do so ~ even if we disagree, truth is not something that comes without searching, laboring, prayer, and with all sincerity, and love for the truth, which you seem to do and have.

I am confident that this passage does not explicitly teach that regeneration must precede faith in a temporal or logical sequence.

Johann, are you speaking of John 1:13, or John 3:1-8, or both? Either or, it really does not matter.

The conditional structure (ἐὰν μή + subjunctive) shows that new birth is necessary for seeing the kingdom, but this does not inherently mean that it occurs before faith.

What else could it possibly means? Well, let's us at least give point number one to support that regeneration does proceed seeing, hearing, and all other fruits of the Spirit, including faith. Where there is no life, there "cannot be any actively" on the part of the person void of life, be it natural or spiritual.

John 8:43​

“Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.”

They had no spiritual discerning and understanding of the doctrine of Christ, which showed them to be carnal, and natural men, and not regenerate ones, and the children of God; so they had an aversion to it, and could not bear to hear it. They were void of the Spirit of God. They were still in the flesh, unregenerate!

Romans 8:9​

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

1st Corinthians 2:14-16​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Very clear, yet vain men will seek to overthrown such clear scriptures as these. Johann, men in the flesh, unregenerate cannot receive the spiritual truths of God, "impossible", they first must be made spiritual, or born of God. Why would any person desire to fight against this glorious work of the Spirit of God, when each of us know our desperately wicked hearts by nature.

2. Logical Flow in John 3:1-8
Jesus rebukes Nicodemus for misunderstanding spiritual birth (John 3:4), then clarifies that being "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5) is necessary to enter the kingdom.

John 3:6 states, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," contrasting human effort with divine transformation.

Jesus compares this to the wind (John 3:8), showing the sovereign work of the Spirit but not establishing a precise sequence with respect to faith.

Johann, the flow of John 3:1-8 is indeed vital in order for one the grasp the true meaning of this discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus. I will add, not only the flow of words in this short discourse, but the flow of the scriptures after this discourse concerning Nicodemus, in John 7 and John 19 ~ will even add to the true meaning of this discourse.

As briefly as I can....Nicodemus came to Jesus and made a child like confession of faith concerning Jesus' miracles and his strong faith knowing that God was with him, or else he could not do such miracles. This ruler of the Jews made a confession that is as strong and scriptural, godly, as any one of us could have given if we were in his place speaking to Jesus. . Note well ~ that his confession was totally different from the others Jews who accuse Jesus of doing miracle by the power of the devil!

Based upon this confession that Nicodemus gave concerning Jesus, the Lord came right back (flow of the discourse very important) and said these words:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

But by Nicodemus' confession, and Jesus knowing that regeneration proceeds such faith, said these words to Nicodemus.... Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Poor Nicodemus' knowledge of spiritual truth such as how one is born again, and even the phrase............born again, was not something that had ever entered into his heart. He not doubt knew the letter of teh OT scriptures well, but its hidden truths he did not understand. So, this sincere humble man asked a question that we would think how foolish, yet his sincerity should not be mock but we should consider carefully the context of this discourse to get its true meaning that would profit us. Jesus basically just told him that his confession and faith proved that he has already been born of God, because except a man be born again he cannot see,...... spiritual truth, yet Nicodemus DID SEE and his confession proved that he did. If Nicodemus had not asked the question he did in John 3:4, then our Lord would have never mention water as he did in verse five.

John 3:5​

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Born of flesh is being born of water ~ when a child is born into this world through his mother's womb, the water breaks and the child is born, come out sinful flesh, and will every time, unless one is born again in his mother's womb which is rare, but could happen as he know. After John 3:5, water is never mentioned again, proving that it was speaking of our natural birth.

The new birth is a birth by the Spirit of God, without our cooperation/participation, etc., actually without our knowledge ~ one can be doing anything under heaven during this new birth, workings, sleeping and so many other things since man is dead in trespasses and sin. The new birth is explain for us in John 3:8, which time will not allow us to go into depth at the moment, but can if needed.

coming back to finish.

 

[praise_yeshua]

1st Corinthians 2:14-16
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Very clear, yet vain men will seek to overthrown such clear scriptures as these. Johann, men in the flesh, unregenerate cannot receive the spiritual truths of God, "impossible", they first must be made spiritual, or born of God. Why would any person desire to fight against this glorious work of the Spirit of God, when each of us know our desperately wicked hearts by nature.

Do you need English to understand the "Words of God"? The scenario you preach is that God enlightens you spiritually before you can understand His words.....

Yet, you CAN NEVER understand His words unless you know English.

Is English spiritual or natural?

I believe it is obvious that English is natural. It is the language of men. It is designed and maintained by men. Thusly, you have a very flawed understand of what it means to "hear" something.

First of all, you taking 1st Corinthians 2:14:16 out of context to understanding. Does the Spirit of God need to speak to you in English for you to understand Him?

I look forward to your response.

 

[ProDeo]

There is no concept of biological lineage in my theology. However, you can't ignore the fact that the "truth of God" was contained in the teachings of faithful Jews. The "real Jews" who was one inwardly. Israel had an obligation to produce fruit among other nations. Their failures to accomplish this because of their own personal sin is the story of salvation in Christ alone.

While the large remainder of this world did as they pleased without inference from God, God worked among a very few to preserve the narrative of Jesus Christ to humanity.

I'm asking you to include all of the faithful. Even these "women" you seem to want to resist.

Remove faithful women from the narrative and you lose all context of the promise made to Eve. The hope of Adam was in Eve...... The hope of the Incarnate Christ was in Eve. In Mary. The seed of the women. Not the seed of Adam nor even of Abraham. It was in the seed of the woman. The "egg" of the Incarnation that meet the Full Glory of God in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

What Lydia knew came from faithful women. Even Timothy's faith came from women.

Most men today abandon the woman to nothing more than means of their own self gratification.

Acts 2:17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Acts 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

 

[GodsGrace]

@synergy

You did not understand me, which does not surprise me, so please listen carefully what I meant by calling Revelation 17 Mystery Babylon a church when actually the great whore is not a single church but all of the religious so-called folks in Mystery Babylon, that claim to worship the one and True God, yet are guilty of spiritual formication, whereby the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication (lies and false doctrines).

Mystery Babylon is this world system, that has a religious sector that is part of that which make up Mystery Babylon. In Revelation 17:1-8 we see the religious part of Mystery Babylon, then starting at verse nine we see the beast which is truly the main part of Mystery Babylon, that God will cause to destroy the religious part of Mystery Babylon just before he returns again. Revelation 18 addresses the commerce and entertainment part of Mystery Babylon which God will burn up with fire in that day.

That being said, I have came out of BOTH, the religious sector and the world as we know it with all of its commerce and entertainments, etc.

We practice what you think you are doing, when nothing can be farther from the truth.

Since this thread is suppose to be discussing free will, let's see who is truly seeking to harmonizing scriptures or who is laboring to just ignore them, and the ones they attempt to address they beat them into submission by their misguided presuppositions.

In being born again, man's will has no part in the new birth according to the word of God, period, yet you, @GodsGrace, @civic @MTMattie, and many others, teach that is does, so let's us see who is the guilty party that you accuse me of doing.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Not of blood.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with natural descent, pedigree, etc. @jeremiah1five needs to ponder this well. The Jews especially had this problem, for they trusted in Abraham (Luke 3:8). Descent and nationalism were real problems of Jews (Is 48:1-8; Ro 2:17-29). Paul declared Abraham’s children are not the children of God (Rom 9:6-8). We are the seed of Abraham, for we are Christ’s, his true Seed (Ga 3:16,29). Today there are British Israelites and similar sects that trust in vain genealogies.

Nor of the will of the flesh.

How plain is this! let us see who is truly guilty of beating scriptures into submission by their misguided presuppositions.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with your natural will or choice. This phrase condemns the decisional regeneration heresy of @synergy @GodsGrace @civic @MTMattie and all others who embrace this heresy.

Heretics will do anything to elicit a choice by the flesh to get saved. They talk ad nauseam about the simplicity of getting yourself born again. Prior to being born again, all you have is a flesh nature that is denied here. Not only is the will of the flesh denied, but it is impossible for it to so will. A man in the flesh cannot and will not please God; he is a depraved rebel. God’s compassion and mercy are by His own will, not man’s (Rom 9:15-16). If any ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in man to cause them to do good, otherwise it would be impossible, (Phil 2:12-13).

Only God’s will is active (John 3:8; 5:21; Ephesians 1:5; James 1:18; Hebrews 10:9-10).

What is the will of the flesh that is rejected here as the means of regeneration? You have two natures – one by first birth and one by spiritual birth (John 3:6). The will of the flesh is all you have before regeneration ~ the sinful you. Therefore, this phrase denies any choice or act of will before regeneration! Until you are born again, this is the only will you have ~ that of the flesh. Paul denied that anything you do in the flesh can please God (Romans 8:7-8).

Nor of the will of man.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with the will of anyone outside you. This phrase condemns parental efforts to save infants as in Roman Catholicism. By far the most popular method of salvation of Christians is infant baptism. Parents take children to some priest to be baptized to become God’s child. The parents choose godparents to guarantee the child of God will be taught. There is nothing a parent can do to assist or cooperate for salvation (Ps 49:6-9). No other man has any influence on you being born again, except for One Man! The work of salvation is all found in one man’s obedience (Rom 5:12-19). There is no place for parents, pastors, priests, or soul winners for eternal life. In Him was life! He is the Life! He is resurrection and life! He has the keys!

But of God.

Becoming God’s son by being born again is His monergistic, sovereign work. John called it being born again from Jesus (John 3:1-8; Ist John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-5,18). James also refer to it as a birth or begetting (Jas 1:18. Paul used quickening (Ephesians 2:1-3; Col 2:13), regeneration, renewing (Titus 3:5). This creative work by God’s power gives each elect person a new spiritual man. We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). This work by God Himself is compared to wind blowing by Jesus (John 3:8). This is the work of Christ Jesus raising dead souls to spiritual life (John 5:25). It is called a quickening of man from his natural state of spiritual death.

Romans 9:16​

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

Coming back and will consider this scripture from Paul.

All Calvinist theories.
And you say you're not calvinist !

You shouldn't even bring up Romans 9 since you have no concept of what it's about.
You should try to find out.

I'm tired of this RB.
And John 1:13....calvinists will grab at any straw.

Find out what it REALLY means.
Use sources that are not calvinist...if you dare.

There's plenty on Romans 9 too.
But the truth scares Calvinists.
They just stick together and ignore all else.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

I forgot to tag this to you, so here. I'm going to address your two posts that came this morning next.

Really RB....
I'm tired of hearing Calvinists say they're not Calvinist.
It's really disconcerting.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Fran, truly why should it bother God's children ( by this I'm not saying that you are not, but only making a point) since we know that down through time, truth has always been in the minority, always. Even just before Paul left this world he said these words:

2 Timothy 4:16​

“At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Fran, I look down through time and I see godly men raising up with me, or, I should say, I'm rising up with them preaching the same truths, but even that can only give us a certain amount of comfort, we look to the Lord to stand with us, and to give us needed grace to be faithful to what he has been please to give us. Fran, vain is the help of man, even if there are millions of them, that will prove to be a major stumbling block to most.

Psalms 108:12​

“Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man.”

All wise men know the truth of David's words.

See my post above to @synergy. You making that statement just shows me the strong delusion you are under ~ per 2nd Thessalonians 2.

I do not promote Calvinism as what is know as pure Calvinism, I labor to teach the scriptures and if that sound like Calvinism to you, so be it, then prove what I'm saying is wrong, by using the scriptures ~ because many Calvinist, would find fault with me.

Again, we teach unconditional salvation ~ we teach that salvation from sin and condemnation is by the obedience of ONE ~ Jesus Christ, period. We do not add to that gospel, so, it is far from being new, it is the same gospel preached by Paul and the apostles. So, if you desire to prove your gospel, used the scriptures given to us, just as I would toward you, and we both would allow the sculptures speak for us, not Calvin, not any Armenian, etc. It is just that simple.

Let me come come back and pick up here, after a meeting this morning.

I think I've made my position clear.
If you want to discuss ONE SPECIFIC verse, I'm willing.
But these tirades of yours are just talk going back and forth.

You want me TO PROVE YOU'RE WRONG?
Happily.
Pick a verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

At so many levels, the false doctrine of individual predestination of only certain individuals to redemption is offensive to the work of God in Jesus Christ.

Amen to that!
This is why calvinism blasphemes God,,,attributing to HIM the works of satan.
Maybe this is not clear to some?
If God decrees everything...then He also decrees the sins that men do.
This is blasphemous.

It is so offensive to the sensibilities of the righteous that those who believe such nonsense should be openly rebuked at every turn. I have tried to do this for many years and it has cost me many "friendships". You can't take these people seriously at all. I once tried forcing myself to believe they were "brothers" in Christ but every experience I've had since that moment with them proves otherwise.

Well, dear PY....this is because Calvinists feel superior to us po' folk.
You see, they believe they're able to accept a God that we weaker Christians cannot accept.
They also feel very privileged that GOD CHOSE them. What an honor it must feel like!
So they look down on us...
This is reminiscent of gnosticism...
people that feel superior because they feel they have knowledge others do not have.

Just start talking about the Goodness of Jesus Christ to all mankind and the "fangs" will come out of the "best of them".

Bingo.
Because they don't really believe God is a God of love.
To them He is ONLY sovereign and nothing else.

and what do you expect?
With what they believe God cannot possibly be a God of love.

But we po' folk can only accept a God of love.

It's sick.

This obsession they have with "infant baptism" is nothing more than a distraction. Even Baptist practice "dedication services" for infants. They do the same things but are certain to "classify" the practice with their own words.....

I once had a man tell me that he was wanting to be "assistant to the Pastor" and not "Assistant Pastor". I just simply asked him to explain the difference and he has hated me ever since.

The mind is a "funny thing". People live in their own imaginations. Few can actually separate themselves from their own interests.

Agreed. 100%

 

[synergy]

This indicates that Paul and his co-workers are working alongside God in His redemptive plan. However, like in Mark 1:20, this does not imply an equal partnership between man and God, but rather it reflects man's cooperative role in God's work, with God being the one who ultimately controls and empowers the process. The idea of synergy here refers to man's active participation in God’s plan, but the initiative and ultimate power lie with God.

Does This Suggest Equal Cooperation?
Your statement, “People's attempt to warp the Apostolic meaning of the word συνεργοι will not succeed,” holds some truth in that συνεργοί (fellow workers) does not imply equality in the relationship. God is still sovereign in both Mark 1:20 and 1 Corinthians 3:9.

Synergy in these passages does not mean that God and man are equally cooperating on the same level.

Rather, it means that God uses human agents to accomplish His purposes, but it is God’s will, power, and direction that ultimately make the work fruitful.


The idea that "God and man cooperate equally" in the theological sense of salvation does indeed need careful consideration.

In Christian theology, especially in soteriology, the understanding is that salvation is a work of God (Eph 2:8-9), and man’s cooperation (through faith, obedience, etc.) does not make man equal to God in the process of salvation.

Faith itself is a gift from God (Eph 2:8), and the Holy Spirit empowers the believer to act. Thus, synergy in salvation should not be confused with equivalence or an equal initiation of the process. God is the one who initiates, sustains, and completes the work of salvation, while human beings respond in faith and obedience.

In conclusion, while συνεργός (synergos) does indeed translate as "fellow worker" or "co-worker," the Apostolic use of the term does not suggest an equal, mutual cooperation between God and man.

It indicates man's participation in God's work, under God's guidance and authority. Thus, synergy in the context of salvation refers to human cooperation in the redemptive process, but God is the initiator, sustainer, and ultimate actor in salvation.

The idea that "God and man cooperate equally" is not a correct biblical understanding of synergy in the context of salvation.

Correct? I won’t respond to the other points you made, as they come across as quite aggressive.

I already said that the notion that "God and man cooperate equally" is a silly notion. See my quote below. Are you repeating that over and over again so that you can convince yourself? I'm already convinced.

The silly notion that "God and man cooperate equally," or that man initiates everything or that God does not get all of the glory is just silly.

By the way, the Apostles are no longer alive.

Not physically alive. As for spiritually alive, Moses and Elijah are alive spiritually...

 

[praise_yeshua]

Simple question..... to all the Calvinists....

Does an Ambassador speak of himself?

 

[Red Baker]

Do you need English to understand the "Words of God"? The scenario you preach is that God enlightens you spiritually before you can understand His words.....

@praise_yeshua

First, not sure why I would waste my time with a man who said that he could and would worship in a RCC church, which revealed much to me of your love for the truth.

The scenario you preach is that God enlightens you spiritually before you can understand His words.....

The sequence of events of one's salvation both vitally, (regeneration) and practically (conversion) is not my invention, but the truth of the word of God. First of all, God just does not enlighten and then leave us, he creates within his elect a new man, which new man has power to see, understand, and believe, for man's natural birth, his flesh part, profited nothing, this is true with all of the children of Adam, apart from being born again, there is no good thing, and that's not my opinion, bur the very testimony of God Himself.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

So, this being true, not because I said it is, but the Holy Ghost proclaims this truth. I must be faithful and teach that the natural man cannot see, believe and understand spiritual truth, until that person is born again. I provided scriptures above already.

Yet, you CAN NEVER understand His words unless you know English.

God's word "does not" say unless one understands Hebrews, Latin, Greek, or English he cannot know truth ~ but it does say, except one is born again he cannot see, perceive and understand spiritual truths, per 1st Corinthians 2:14. One must have the mind of Christ, which is given to the new man when he is born of God.

Is English spiritual or natural?

English like all other languages is natural ~ but, the words of God are spiritual, and before one can understand the holy sculptures, that person must be born again, otherwise, they will never understand them, never. The Lord Jesus said:

John 8:43~"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.”

I believe it is obvious that English is natural. It is the language of men. It is designed and maintained by men. Thusly, you have a very flawed understand of what it means to "hear" something.

No, it is you, Mr. Wanna be....Jesus made it very clear, who can hear, and who cannot hear.

John 10:26​

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Read John 17 for more confirmation of this blessed truth. Space and time will not allow me to go there.

First of all, you taking 1st Corinthians 2:14:16 out of context to understanding.

Summary of 1st Corinthians 2:14-16....
A natural man, born only of the flesh, has no ability to recognize spiritual truth (John 3:3,6). Preaching of gospel truth cannot help a natural man at all, for he will reject the message. Paul has already established this point, but now we are exploring it in more detail (1st Cor. 1:18). Without a new man and the presence of the Spirit of God, no man can understand the gospel. There is a violent animosity between the flesh and the things of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:17). There is violent inability for the flesh nature of man to agree with the spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Neither the Spirit nor any preacher can teach a natural man! He must make him spiritual first! Though the things of the gospel are glorious and terrible, natural men mock them as foolish. Much like you do @praise_yeshua Though all and every human effort is made to convince them, they lack ability to learn. Man’s intellectual ability is very great, but his spiritual ability is brutish (Psalm 49:20). The defect is in his motives and affections – for he always hates God (Psalm 10:4; Gen 6:5). This is not my opinion, but the testimony of the God of heaven who cannot lie.

1st Corinthians 2:15 The gospel is easy to men born again, yet there is no visible difference in their constitution.​

The spiritual man in this verse is contrasted with the natural man of the previous verse – it is a man born again by the Spirit of God, a called saint, a believer, as were the Corinthians. The judgment here is the same with discerning in the previous verse; it is not condemnation. A man with the Spirit of God can judge that the gospel is indeed truth and precious indeed. A born again man, with the Spirit of God in him, easily grasps and loves Christ’s gospel. Not every saint judges all things perfectly, but rather to the degree of his own illumination, and according to the amount of the gospel ministers have preached to him. Natural men have no clue to what governs, directs, instructs, and comforts the child of God. Natural men think the gospel is foolishness, and they think Christians are fanatics and fools. Though saints should be counted the noblest of men, natural men despise and resent them.

2:16 The things of God are far beyond human intelligence, but we have the mind of God in us.​

Paul quoted Isaiah’s rhetorical question in mocking the intelligence of natural man (Is 40:13). No natural man, regardless of intelligence or education, can know or instruct Jehovah at all. There is an infinite distance between the natural wisdom of man and God’s perfect wisdom. By the gracious ordination and regeneration of God, the elect have the mind of Christ by the Spirit. By the indwelling Spirit of Christ, we have an internal witness to the thoughts of Jehovah. Natural men do not have a clue of divine wisdom, but the saints have a great measure of it. A child of God walking in the Spirit has much glorious wisdom exceeding all natural men. How can we even grasp such a glorious thing? Let us be filled with His fullness (Eph 3:19)!

I trust I gave you more than you bargain for!

 

[Red Baker]

All Calvinist theories.
And you say you're not calvinist !

@GodsGrace

I said not in the pure meaning of Calvinism, but did say very plainly that I was what is known as a High Calvinist, and I'm not ashamed of it. But, I prefer to be call what I'm according to the scriptures........ a believer, Christian, etc. I very seldom use the word Armenianism when speaking of those folks who teach a conditional salvation. I prefer just to going after the scriptures they used to refute them for most people used those two terms to attack the person and not their teachings.

you shouldn't even bring up Romans 9 since you have no concept of what it's about.
You should try to find out.

I'm tired of this RB.
And John 1:13....calvinists will grab at any straw.

Find out what it REALLY means.
Use sources that are not calvinist...if you dare.

There's plenty on Romans 9 too.
But the truth scares Calvinists.
They just stick together and ignore all else.

You are ranting instead of refuting the scriptures that was used in the post. If you have a word to say that can refute what was said, then by means do so ~ otherwise, I'm moving on.

 

[Red Baker]

You want me TO PROVE YOU'RE WRONG?
Happily.
Pick a verse.

@GodsGrace

Since you boldly said that I did not understand Romans nine, then go there and prove to me that I do not.

You shouldn't even bring up Romans 9 since you have no concept of what it's about.
You should try to find out.

Okay show me and after you are finish then I will post, but not until you say that you are finish. Anxiously, and patiently be waiting.

 

[Red Baker]

3. The Broader Johannine Context
John 1:12-13 – "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born (ἐγεννήθησαν) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

@ Johann

Greetings Johann,

Let me finish your post to me ~ it is so easy to get sidetrack from others posting and it is getting harder to keep up since most of he poster do not agree with me and are posting to me, but we are trying. brother, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion, where you said:

The structure suggests believing grants the right to become children of God, not that one must first be born again in order to believe.
John 6:40 – "Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life."

This verse links seeing and believing with eternal life, rather than making new birth a prerequisite for faith.

The structure suggest? Johann, the flow of the context will drive the true sense it which we should understand what John is saying, please consider:

John 1:10-12​

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Context is king Johann ~ I know you know this, just a friendly, brotherly reminder. verses 10,11, John tell us the the world, (Gentiles) knew him not, then the Spirit through John said that he came unto his own (the Jewish people), and they received him not....notice carefully the very nest word: BUT.....Johann, you and I should greatly rejoice in the inspired disjunctive – but – for the light of life made a difference. In spite of the previous verse stating that His own received Him not, some did. The historical narrative continued, stating exceptions to the previous generality. Natural man cannot and will not receive Christ, even by the Spirit (I Cor 2:14). To receive Christ is to believe on Him as Son of God; see last clause of 1:12. To receive Christ is to accept and believe His doctrine and duties (Col 2:5-9).
To them gave he power to become the sons of God.

Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, gave power to some to become God’s sons. Those that received Jesus had His power change them to become His sons. Those that received Jesus were given authority, privilege, right of His sons.

What is the order? Receive Christ or become God’s sons? What is the order? How did you become the child of your parents? By what process did it occur? They generated and procreated you by a choice of lovemaking to conceive! In the same way you become God’s Son, by His loving choice to regenerate! Johann, you and I are no more involved in our second birth than you were in our first.
Even to them that believe on his name.

Even.adverb. Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Also in 16-17th century (hence still archaic after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = ‘namely’, ‘that is to say’. Compare Bible usage in John 8:41; 15:26; I Co 15:24. It is italicized because the KJV translators honestly admitted interpolation. Do we trust italicized words? Jesus argued from one (Mat 22:31-32; Ex 3:6).

Believe is present tense. What happened to ‘d’ to lose the context’s past tense? We trust the word of God at the word level, even for one letter (Gal 3:16). John shifted from a past tense historical narrative to believers in the present. The difference of a single letter makes a big difference and agrees with 1:13. He gave power to those that believe.

The order and priority of salvation is His power in regeneration before faith. This precious verse is not a complete sentence and does not end with a period. It is heresy to memorize and preach this verse while ignoring its second half. Those that preach conditions/works could not care less about what follows, for they totally reject it. They adore their manmade heresy of decisional regeneration against 1:13.

The vast majority of Christians have a formula for you to be born again. They want you to accept Jesus, pray a prayer, get baptized, underground, etc. But it is clear from this sentence and the Bible that regeneration comes first. Regeneration is God’s instantaneous work to give the elect a new nature. Johann, John 1:13 is the Spirit's commentary on verse 12!

I have a meetings that I must attend....Later.

 

[Complete]

FREEWILL AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE​

by Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D., instructor of church history, theology and biblical languages at Virginia Baptist College​

​

How often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist – “Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”? Of course, the freedom of will to go against one’s nature, even for God, is not possible. It is impossible for God to lie or to deny Himself (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, 2 Tim 2:13). And it is impossible for me to fly by just flapping my arms. But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience. The exercise of that ability by God and by man is also well documented in Scripture. And I can y… if I decide to get on an airplane and allow its power to transport me through the air!​

The following is an attempt at a rather thorough study of words used in the OT and NT that teach aspects and examples of the exercise of freewill. The reader will hopefully become convinced, contrary to Calvinistic dramatic false statements in opposition, that freewill is clearly taught in the Scriptures –​

The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture [also 3 times in 3 verses using the same root in Aramaic – Ezra 7:13, 15, 16]. (Most of definitions for this paper are adapted from Strong’s Concordance lexical definitions.)​

Here are all the verses that translate this word, נדב naw-dab’, with the translation of it underlined. The ESV translation for each verse was chosen to accommodate Calvinist readers, so they won’t have to keep running back to their favourite translation, which is deterministically flavoured.​

Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.​

Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….​

Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.​

Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!​

Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.​

​

—-[The verbal form in this last verse is a participle, on the Hithpael stem, which is reflexive in meaning, thus the word “themselves” should be added. This Hithpael verbal stem is used 17 times in the same reflexive way – Jg 5:2, 9; 1Ch 29:5, 6, 9(2x), 14, 17(2x); 2Ch 17:16; Ezr 1:6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:13, 15, 16; Neh 11:2]. The reflexive action only helps to emphasize the non-compulsory action of the person’s will in the decision made in each context—-​

​

The noun נדבה ned-aw-baw’ is used 26 times in 25 verses, mostly in connection with a voluntary – “freewill” – offering to God. With all these verses one cannot help but ask “How can you have a freewill offering without a freewill?” Calvinists reject its normal meaning, but the Bible literally uses the word 26 times. Even the Calvinist translators of the KJV and ESV freely chose “freewill” as a suitable translation. Their translation choice is telling of what they believed this original word meant.​

Here are the verses in which this noun is used:​

Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD. —-[The idea in this verse of a sacrifice made as a free-will offering, one not commanded as an obligation, is also found in – Ex 36:3; Le 7:16; 22:18, 21, 23; 23:38; Nu 15:3; 29:39; De 12:6, 17; 16:10; 2Ch 31:14; Ezr 1:4; 3:5; 8:28; Ps 54:6; 119:108; Eze 46:12(2x); Am 4:5]​

Deut 23:23 ESV You shall be careful to do what has passed your lips, for you have voluntarily vowed to the LORD your God what you have promised with your mouth.​

2Ch 35:8 ESV And his of cials contributed willingly to the people, to the priests, and to the Levites….​

Ps 68:9 ESV Rain in abundance, O God, you shed abroad; you restored your inheritance as it languished;​

Ps 110:3 ESV Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.​

​

Hos 14:4 ESV I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.​

​

—All these OT verses clearly confirm that man, even an unregenerate man, can exercise a free-will in a manner pleasing to God. Even God is said to exercise His freewill in Hos 14:4. The translation in Ps 68:9 was obviously determined with some subjectivity. It could easily be translated – “A shower of freewill gifts, O God, you have shed abroad…”​

​

Here are some NT words and verses to consider that also speak to the issue of the freedom of the will. A Calvinist may try to attribute all of the following examples as a result of regeneration, but that does not seem to t this rst example –​

Acts 17:11-12 ESV Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.​

​

—-[from προθυμια proth-oo-mee’-ah, meaning predisposition. See also – 2Co 8:11, 12, 19, 9:2;] The Calvinist may endeavor to suggest this willing predisposition of the Bereans was a result of regeneration, which they think is before faith is expressed. It is very difficult to convince them otherwise when their loyalty to Calvinism is so strong that they refuse to see the gospel of John clearly teaches light is freely received before faith which is before new birth life is given. See John 1:4-13, 12:35-36, 20:30-31.​

​

Other NT verses to consider that speak to the issue of freewill are these –​

​

1Cor 7:37 ESV But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. —-from μη ἔχων ἀνάγκην , literally – “not having a necessity”, which would be impossible if everything was predetermined eternally and immutably, making every event a necessary result of God’s decree. Notice also the verse says this man “having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart.”​

​

1Cor 9:17 ESV For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. —- from εχων hek-own’ meaning willingly.​

2Cor 8:3 ESV For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, and 2Cor 8:17 ESV For he not only accepted our appeal, but being himself very earnest he is going to you of his own accord. —-from αυθαιρετος owthah’-ee-ret-os – meaning self-chosen, and by implication – voluntary.​

2Cor 9:7 ESV Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. —- from προαιρεομαι pro-ahee-reh’-om-ahee – meaning to choose for oneself before another thing, to prefer and by implication, to intend.​

Phlm 1:14 ESV but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. —- from εκουσιος hek-oo’see-on – meaning willingness.​

1Pet 5:2 ESV shepherd the ock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; —-from εκουσιον hek-oo-see’-ose – meaning willingly.​

​

The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Calvinism is based upon that philosophical premise, making the exercise of any free-will for God or man impossible, before creation and especially after it. That premise makes a falsehood out of these clear Scriptures shared here. These Scriptures and many others clearly show that free will does exist and is being exercised by God and man.​

Hello @TomL,

I believe that God has foreknowledge, therefore knows beforehand what will take place, and the choices that will be made, but that those choices made are not pre-determined, otherwise how could God judge justly?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jim]

Summary of 1st Corinthians 2:14-16....
A natural man, born only of the flesh, has no ability to recognize spiritual truth (John 3:3,6). Preaching of gospel truth cannot help a natural man at all, for he will reject the message. Paul has already established this point, but now we are exploring it in more detail (1st Cor. 1:18). Without a new man and the presence of the Spirit of God, no man can understand the gospel. There is a violent animosity between the flesh and the things of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:17). There is violent inability for the flesh nature of man to agree with the spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Neither the Spirit nor any preacher can teach a natural man! He must make him spiritual first! Though the things of the gospel are glorious and terrible, natural men mock them as foolish. Much like you do @praise_yeshua Though all and every human effort is made to convince them, they lack ability to learn. Man’s intellectual ability is very great, but his spiritual ability is brutish (Psalm 49:20). The defect is in his motives and affections – for he always hates God (Psalm 10:4; Gen 6:5). This is not my opinion, but the testimony of the God of heaven who cannot lie.

1st Corinthians 2:15 The gospel is easy to men born again, yet there is no visible difference in their constitution.​

The spiritual man in this verse is contrasted with the natural man of the previous verse – it is a man born again by the Spirit of God, a called saint, a believer, as were the Corinthians. The judgment here is the same with discerning in the previous verse; it is not condemnation. A man with the Spirit of God can judge that the gospel is indeed truth and precious indeed. A born again man, with the Spirit of God in him, easily grasps and loves Christ’s gospel. Not every saint judges all things perfectly, but rather to the degree of his own illumination, and according to the amount of the gospel ministers have preached to him. Natural men have no clue to what governs, directs, instructs, and comforts the child of God. Natural men think the gospel is foolishness, and they think Christians are fanatics and fools. Though saints should be counted the noblest of men, natural men despise and resent them.

2:16 The things of God are far beyond human intelligence, but we have the mind of God in us.​

Paul quoted Isaiah’s rhetorical question in mocking the intelligence of natural man (Is 40:13). No natural man, regardless of intelligence or education, can know or instruct Jehovah at all. There is an infinite distance between the natural wisdom of man and God’s perfect wisdom. By the gracious ordination and regeneration of God, the elect have the mind of Christ by the Spirit. By the indwelling Spirit of Christ, we have an internal witness to the thoughts of Jehovah. Natural men do not have a clue of divine wisdom, but the saints have a great measure of it. A child of God walking in the Spirit has much glorious wisdom exceeding all natural men. How can we even grasp such a glorious thing? Let us be filled with His fullness (Eph 3:19)!

I trust I gave you more than you bargain for!

Calvinists and too many others completely misunderstand 1 Corinthians 2. It is not about the difference between the born again and the others. It is between the divinely inspired and the others. The entire passage of 1 Corinthians 2 concerns Paul's divinely inspired revelation. The "we" throughout chapter 2 is referencing those who speak by divine inspiration, namely the apostles and prophets.

Verse 12 speaks of what Paul and the other apostles of Christ received, not from the spirit of this world, but rather from the Spirit of God. You are not taught by the Spirit of God; you are taught by the words of the divinely inspired words of the apostles and prophets. You are neither.

This is all summarized by verse 16: "We have the mind of Christ". That is not me or you. That can be said only of the divinely inspired apostles and prophets. If that referred to the born again, then among the born again, there could not possibly be any conflict in our theology ever. But there is. Forums such as this prove that beyond all possible doubt. If we had the mind of Christ, we would not need anything more; we would not need the Bible. The Holy Spirit does not teach you or me anything. He is indeed a helper, a comforter, a "paraclete"., one who helps us to understand the words of the apostles and prophets, one who helps us to obey those words.

 

[Complete]

@ Johann

Greetings Johann,​

​

Let me finish your post to me ~ it is so easy to get sidetrack from others posting and it is getting harder to keep up since most of he poster do not agree with me and are posting to me, but we are trying. brother, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion, where you said:​

​

​

The structure suggest? Johann, the flow of the context will drive the true sense it which we should understand what John is saying, please consider:​

John 1:10-12​

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”​

​

Context is king Johann ~ I know you know this, just a friendly, brotherly reminder. verses 10,11, John tell us the the world, (Gentiles) knew him not, then the Spirit through John said that he came unto his own (the Jewish people), and they received him not....notice carefully the very nest word: BUT.....Johann, you and I should greatly rejoice in the inspired disjunctive – but – for the light of life made a difference. In spite of the previous verse stating that His own received Him not, some did. The historical narrative continued, stating exceptions to the previous generality. Natural man cannot and will not receive Christ, even by the Spirit (I Cor 2:14). To receive Christ is to believe on Him as Son of God; see last clause of 1:12. To receive Christ is to accept and believe His doctrine and duties (Col 2:5-9).​

To them gave he power to become the sons of God.​

​

Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, gave power to some to become God’s sons. Those that received Jesus had His power change them to become His sons. Those that received Jesus were given authority, privilege, right of His sons.​

​

What is the order? Receive Christ or become God’s sons? What is the order? How did you become the child of your parents? By what process did it occur? They generated and procreated you by a choice of lovemaking to conceive! In the same way you become God’s Son, by His loving choice to regenerate! Johann, you and I are no more involved in our second birth than you were in our first.​

Even to them that believe on his name.​

​

Even. adverb. Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Also in 16-17th century (hence still archaic after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = ‘namely’, ‘that is to say’. Compare Bible usage in John 8:41; 15:26; I Co 15:24. It is italicized because the KJV translators honestly admitted interpolation. Do we trust italicized words? Jesus argued from one (Mat 22:31-32; Ex 3:6).​

​

Believe is present tense. What happened to ‘d’ to lose the context’s past tense? We trust the word of God at the word level, even for one letter (Gal 3:16). John shifted from a past tense historical narrative to believers in the present. The difference of a single letter makes a big difference and agrees with 1:13. He gave power to those that believe.​

​

The order and priority of salvation is His power in regeneration before faith. This precious verse is not a complete sentence and does not end with a period. It is heresy to memorize and preach this verse while ignoring its second half. Those that preach conditions/works could not care less about what follows, for they totally reject it. They adore their manmade heresy of decisional regeneration against 1:13.​

​

The vast majority of Christians have a formula for you to be born again. They want you to accept Jesus, pray a prayer, get baptized, underground, etc. But it is clear from this sentence and the Bible that regeneration comes first. Regeneration is God’s instantaneous work to give the elect a new nature. Johann, John 1:13 is the Spirit's commentary on verse 12!​

​

I have a meetings that I must attend....Later.​

'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name (Himself):
.. Which (Who) were (was) born,
.... not of blood,
...... nor of the will of the flesh,
........ nor of the will of man,
.......... but of God.
And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.'
(Joh 1:11-14)

Hello @Red Baker,

Please consider the following quote from my Bible's marginal notes:-

The word, 'Which,' (highlighted above) = 'Who' in verse 13, i.e., 'those who believe on His Name.'
(Note:- Antecedent to any ancient MSS, Iranius (AD178), Tertullian (AD208), Augustine (AD395), and other Fathers, read:- "Who was begotten" (Sing., not Pl.) The "hos" (= 'Who') agreeing with "autou" ('His name'. Gr. omoma aytou, , 'name of Him').
Verse 14 goes on to speak of the incarnation of Him Who was not begotten by human generation. The Latin Codex Verenensis (before Jerome's Vulgate) reads, "Qui ... natus est". Tertullian (de carne Christi, c.19) says that "believers" could not be intended in this verse, "since all who believe are born of blood", &c. He ascribes the reading of the Received text to the artifice of the Valentinian Gnostics of the second and third centuries). See Encyl. Brit. eleventh (Camb.) edn, vol.27, pp.852-7.

(Ref:- The Companion Bible's marginal notes -Dr. E.W. Bullinger )

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

First, not sure why I would waste my time with a man who said that he could and would worship in a RCC church, which revealed much to me of your love for the truth.

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Your exclusionary beliefs betray you. You don't get to choose who God accepts worship from.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The sequence of events of one's salvation both vitally, (regeneration) and practically (conversion) is not my invention, but the truth of the word of God. First of all, God just does not enlighten and then leave us, he creates within his elect a new man, which new man has power to see, understand, and believe, for man's natural birth, his flesh part, profited nothing, this is true with all of the children of Adam, apart from being born again, there is no good thing, and that's not my opinion, bur the very testimony of God Himself.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Your theology is certainly invented. Not by you but by your fathers that you trust. Do you have "special flesh" that is different than other flesh?

Seems like you would understand that all flesh means all flesh. You don't seem to understand this at all. You're just like everyone else. However, you seem want to preach that you're not just like everyone. YOU.... believe you are chosen. Isn't that special. If I had a dollar for everyone I've ever meet that thought they were "special" unlike their brothers in flesh..... well I think you can finish that sentence.

I'm breaking your responses apart because you enjoy bloviating. Maybe you can get your grandson to help correct this in you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God's word "does not" say unless one understands Hebrews, Latin, Greek, or English he cannot know truth ~ but it does say, except one is born again he cannot see, perceive and understand spiritual truths, per 1st Corinthians 2:14. One must have the mind of Christ, which is given to the new man when he is born of God.

Funny. I thought it was obvious. You are reading and sharing words that come from the English language.

You're referencing the "mind of Christ" as if you don't need to understand English to know the mind of Christ. I know you haven't given this much thought at all. Your theology is very very shallow. It lives in just a few verses of the collections you prefer. Just a few. You've done this so long you don't even know how to construct an argument much less defend one.

English like all other languages is natural ~ but, the words of God are spiritual, and before one can understand the holy sculptures, that person must be born again, otherwise, they will never understand them, never. The Lord Jesus said:

No. It is obvious that before you can understand God's words, you must know English or some other language that relates the "words of God" to you. You're not special. Everyone has that requirement.

Here. Take Paul's word for it.....

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Now. I'm going to stop right here and wait for you to deal with your mistakes.

 

[Complete]

Calvinists and too many others completely misunderstand 1 Corinthians 2. It is not about the difference between the born again and the others. It is between the divinely inspired and the others. The entire passage of 1 Corinthians 2 concerns Paul's divinely inspired revelation. The "we" throughout chapter 2 is referencing those who speak by divine inspiration, namely the apostles and prophets.​

​

Verse 12 speaks of what Paul and the other apostles of Christ received, not from the spirit of this world, but rather from the Spirit of God. You are not taught by the Spirit of God; you are taught by the words of the divinely inspired words of the apostles and prophets. You are neither.​

​

This is all summarized by verse 16: "We have the mind of Christ". That is not me or you. That can be said only of the divinely inspired apostles and prophets. If that referred to the born again, then among the born again, there could not possibly be any conflict in our theology ever. But there is. Forums such as this prove that beyond all possible doubt. If we had the mind of Christ, we would not need anything more; we would not need the Bible. The Holy Spirit does not teach you or me anything. He is indeed a helper, a comforter, a "paraclete"., one who helps us to understand the words of the apostles and prophets, one who helps us to obey those words.​

'Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,
but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.'
(1Co 2:12)

Hello @Jim,

Interesting.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris