civic
Well-known member
I'm talking about adam in the garden and the fall, was that a yes or a no ?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Man is dead to God Spiritually, cant do nothing until Born again. Other than that, a dead sinner enslaved to the devil and our evil nature
Cyrus
Active member
Apparently, the “spiritually dead” can do something. Just take a look at the teaching of Jesus in John chapter 3, when He described salvation using the analogy of the brass serpent. Those who had been bitten by the poisonous snakes had to respond in faith by looking at the brass snake. If they were spiritually dead, they could not have done this.
civic
Well-known member
You are not addressing what happened to Adam in the garden
Richard
Active member
The “righteous deeds” Isaiah has in mind are most likely the perfunctory rituals offered by Israel without sincere faith and without wholehearted obedience. In Isaiah 65:1–7 the Lord rejects Israel’s sinful sacrifices. They are an insult to the Lord, smoke in his nostrils, just like the ritual “obedience” of Isaiah 58 that did not impress the Lord because his people were oppressing the poor. Their “righteous deeds” were “filthy rags” (64:6, KJV) because they weren’t righteous at all. They looked good but were a sham, a literal smoke screen to cover up their unbelief and disobedience. There's no in regards to salvation to it. They were already God's chosen people. It's their bad behavior is what's being explained in Isaiah.
Hosanna
Well-known member
That's a falsehood. Man is capable of doing good deeds prior to salvation.
Hosanna
Well-known member
Same falsehood, Man is capable of Performing Good Deeds prior to salvation.
Hosanna
Well-known member
You need to come up with some new rebuttals because the two you keep using over and over aren't working.
Considering the post to which you replied, you blindly deceive while giving each other hearty approval about Christ's doctrine being that man's salvation is entirely conditional upon God's choosing since Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). (John 15:16-19); therefore, YOU DELIBERATELY DISREGARD AND MISREPRESENTED IN A VERY PUBLIC FASHION with your "your belief in unconditional election to salvation".
@civic and @Theophilus, every time TomL is referred to in this post, it applies equally to you because of your agreement with TomL's post.
The word "grant" means to transfer, give, impart, confer (www.thefreedictionary.com/grant).
For example, grant deed transfers ownership of land to a recipient, and a grant deed can be executed without any contribution made by the recipient, not even a signature on the grant deed document; therefore, the grant deed can effectually cause the recipient of the grant deed to own said property.
The Apostle Paul's use of grant means God transfers/converts a person to believe as per the Apostle Paul's writing of "to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf" (Philippians 1:29).
I thank God who caused @brightfame52 to bring up Philippians 1:29.
Your linguistic confusion is manifest.
The Christ of us Christians lovingly declares "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so, in effect, Christ says "You believing in Him whom He has sent" "is the work of God" (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).
The people asked Jesus "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:28), essentially "How does the works of man work the works of God".
Lord Jesus eliminates "the works of man" (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:
by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
No Christian says man causes man's belief/faith to point at Christ because we Christians believe Christ's sayings of "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
JOHN’S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME
The Apostle John wrote “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31).
Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.
John’s writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.
Well, since Christ establishes who are His friends in John 15:15-16, then the applicability of John 15:16-19 to all Christians in all time is clearly evident. Even you claim to be Christ's friend.
THE EFFECTUAL RESULT OF YOUR CLAIM OF BEING CHRIST' FRIEND.
You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.
Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).
Your heart makes false statements about God. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY ONE, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
Overjoyed
Member
…I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live.
— DEUTERONOMY 30:19
God has created us with a free will. That means that we have the awesome responsibility of choosing His way or rejecting it.
God loves us more than we can begin to understand. He wants the best for us, but His Word says that He sets before us a choice. He respects our right to choose and will neither manipulate us nor control us.
— DEUTERONOMY 30:19
God has created us with a free will. That means that we have the awesome responsibility of choosing His way or rejecting it.
God loves us more than we can begin to understand. He wants the best for us, but His Word says that He sets before us a choice. He respects our right to choose and will neither manipulate us nor control us.
Rockson
Well-known member
You are blatantly and willfully disregarding the context in the beginning of the passage of how this was meant to be understood. It started in verses 26 and 27 AND NOT the verse you cherry pick verse 28 which even with that you impose a meaning that doesn't make sense. But here's what you willfully set aside in the prior verses,
“Truly, truly, I tell you, it is not because you saw these signs that you are looking for Me, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. (now he tell them what they are not to work for, so readers watch this closely)
John 6 : 27 ---> Do not work for food that perishes, (so this has told them what they're not to work for. He continues below telling them what they ARE to work for.....what THEY, THEY, THEY are to work for, see below)
but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. ” John 6:27
But means you do work for this! It means nothing but that! But you are to work for the good that endures to eternal life! They were to work, they were to work, THEY WERE TO WORK......and what is the work THEY were to do? The work of faith. God does not work the work of faith for one! If he was going to do that he would have said it in that very verse!
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Sorry it is you who are deceived. You do not have a single verse which actually states men are sdaved unconditionally. You assume Christ choice of his disciples proves God saves men unconditionally
Ignoring the fact God saves those who believe
1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
God justifies those who believe
Galatians 2:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
All heavenly blessings are in Christ
Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Yet your theology would have God elect and regenerate give life apart from a union with christ
which is clearly contrary to scripture
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 3:36 (NASB 2020) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
PS Judas was chosen was he saved
Grant
You deceptively ignored the first meaning given
grant
(grănt)tr.v. grant·ed, grant·ing, grants
1. To allow or consent to the fulfillment of (something requested): grant permission to speak frankly; grant a request.
2.
hello
Again your deception was obvious as you omitted the very first meaning given
1. To allow or consent to the fulfillment of (something requested): grant permission to speak frankly; grant a request.
It is absurd you think faith is a substance like electricity which can be transferred
Again you ignore the comments of even your own peers
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
assuming your interpretation while ignoring scriptural;l confirmation
Romans 6:23–Romans 7 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
also ignoring the fact Jesus praised great faith and castigated little faith which would make no sense if faith were just sovereignty transferred
Christ rebukes for a lack of faith - Matthew 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8; Luke 12:28; Mark 4:40
Christ commends great faith - Matthew 8:10; Luke 7:9
Again the gift of God is salvation not faith
Again even your own peers can be found contrary to your claims
And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1
1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.
But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145
For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
Repeating your claims over and over does not make them any stronger
Calvin disagreed with you Barnes disagreed with you
They are both Calvinists and not Christian according to you
So why do you carry the namesake of a non Christian?
Funny how you post a verse then ship right over what it shows
John obviously held that by reading his work one could believe
and that should he believe he might have life
For you to claim this concerns believers alone and John is telling believers how they might have life is absurd
They already have life. It is those without life who are in need of it
John states they could life if they believe
Not if God gives them faith but if they believe active voice
Except you just ignore rebuttal and simply make claims you cannot support
brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
I dont care who you talking about. Man naturally is dead to God Spiritually, in fact Adam brought man into this condition by His act Rom 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one[Adam] many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Now if you keep asking me a million times, you get the same answer a million times
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man is dead to God Spiritually, cant do nothing until Born again. Other than that, a dead sinner enslaved to the devil and our evil nature
And all his righteousness's are as filthy rags when in regards to Salvation Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man is dead to God Spiritually, cant do nothing until Born again. Other than that, a dead sinner enslaved to the devil and our evil nature,
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man is dead to God Spiritually, cant do nothing until Born again. Other than that, a dead sinner enslaved to the devil and our evil nature, even his very good religious deeds are evil,
John writes about associating with religious people who have a wrong doctrine of Christ 2 Jn 10-11
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
Good point, the choosing was in order to bring forth fruit which has to do with Salvation, and they had no choice in the matter, God had decided this for them, to be preachers of His Gospel, as He did Paul also, and as He does with all true believers, though they may not have been chosen to being a preacher
Good point, the choosing was in order to bring forth fruit which has to do with Salvation, and they had no choice in the matter, God had decided this for them, to be preachers of His Gospel, as He did Paul also, and as He does with all true believers, though they may not have been chosen to being a preacher
civic
Well-known member
Yet Adam could hear God after he sinned in the garden and they talked with one another . So much for spiritually dead eh ?
So much for the dead cannot see God, hear Gid , talks with God etc …….
So much for your heretical corpse theology .
hope this helps !!!
