An Article on free will

[civic]

@Kermos continues to run away from all the Bible verses that you, myself, and everyone else has forwarded to him. Here's one of many cases where Kermos runs away as fast as his legs can take him:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-105031

Run Kermos Run!

see spot run

 

[TomL]

I'm returning to where we previously left off, civic. You and your free-willian philosopher cohort are unable to righteously respond.



Your question belies that you either don't read posts to you or you are blind - just see later in this post.

CHRIST'S ATONEMENT SUCCEEDS FOR EVERY CHOSEN ONE OF HIS OWN, AND NOT ONE MORE NOR ONE LESS.

“The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)

You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).



CHRIST'S FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.

The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your faulty grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".

Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) command "to hold to civic's beliefs" hold no merit here!



Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.

CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.

In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).

Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).

Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.

Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.



God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.

As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9)		But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4)		But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of civic		The Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16)		For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The First Book of Free-willians		The First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4)		Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Second Book of Free-willians		The Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9)		The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The First Book of Free-willians		The First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Second Book of Free-willians		The Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14)		For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14)

And you quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.

Let's look at more of your deceptions and falsehoods about the Word of God and bearing false witness.




You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!



You publicly proved yourself a deceiver with your post, there, civic.

You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!

Now, back to where we left off.



Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".

You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".

Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.



You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.



That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!

​

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"​

(John 8:39-45)​

​

When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.

See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.

Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CONTROLLING MY DESTINY!!!

Still spamming your same old errors and texts

You still call Christ a liar

You still cannot show Matthias is seen everywhere with the 12

You still ignore context, lexicons and even the comments of your own peers

 

[brightfame52]

Not according to scripture

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

P.S. unbelievers do not receive the Spirit.

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

 

[brightfame52]

The Jailor in Acts 16:30 was drawn and wanted and sought to be saved but didn't know how.

That could last weeks and maybe years if nobody tells him.

Was he already saved all that time?

Acts 16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Drawing encompasses Regeneration, Faith, Repentance, the total conversion experience.

Drawing is also persuading which is Faith

Draw is the greek word helkó:

Definition: to drag
Usage: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

Now the word faith pistis:

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" –
Its from the word 3982/peithô:
"persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.
God does the persuading
Gen 9:27

God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

That word enlarge means : to persuade

So Gods drawing is the giving of the Gift of Faith, to believe in Jesus, thats the only way oe can believe in Him

 

[civic]

The Jailor in Acts 16:30 was drawn and wanted and sought to be saved but didn't know how.

That could last weeks and maybe years if nobody tells him.

Was he already saved all that time?

Acts 16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Spot on brother

 

[civic]

Still spamming your same old errors and texts

You still call Christ a liar

You still cannot show Matthias is seen everywhere with the 12

You still ignore context, lexicons and even the comments of your own peers

Ditto

 

[Kermos]

I called your comments and interpretation of scripture “Reformed”!

Doug

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing to approach His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
You chose Me, but I did not choose you (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST NOW AND FOREVER!!!

 

[civic]

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing to approach His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
You chose Me, but I did not choose you (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST NOW AND FOREVER!!!

Revelation 12:10, John 8:44

 

[TibiasDad]

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

Peter is writing to those who are already believers and have, in Peter’s view, grown to the point of “unfeigned love of the brethren” and that this has been accomplished by “obeying the truth through the Spirit”.

Yes, we do this by faith, but this is not speaking of being born again, but of the process of sanctification.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Peter is writing to those who are already believers and have, in Peter’s view, grown to the point of “unfeigned love of the brethren” and that this has been accomplished by “obeying the truth through the Spirit”.

Yes, we do this by faith, but this is not speaking of being born again, but of the process of sanctification.

Doug

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

 

[TomL]

Ditto

Yep that record has a scratch in it and just repeats itself over and over

 

[TomL]

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

Where did you address this?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit and your verse does not state otherwise. The Holy Spirit propagates the word men believe and are saved

He does not save men so they believe as you twist scripture to say

 

[brightfame52]

Where did you address this?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit and your verse does not state otherwise. The Holy Spirit propagates the word men believe and are saved

He does not save men so they believe as you twist scripture to say

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

 

[TibiasDad]

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life

I wonder why you have yet to demonstrate this as being factual or scriptural? Oh, I know; because you can’t.


Doug

 

[TomL]

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

Where did you address this?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit and your verse does not state otherwise. The Holy Spirit propagates the word men believe and are saved

He does not save men so they believe as you twist scripture to say

 

[brightfame52]

I wonder why you have yet to demonstrate this as being factual or scriptural? Oh, I know; because you can’t.


Doug

I have but u cannot see it

 

[TibiasDad]

I have but u cannot see it

I can read quite well; I’ve read nothing exegetical to support your argument.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Where did you address this?

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit and your verse does not state otherwise. The Holy Spirit propagates the word men believe and are saved

He does not save men so they believe as you twist scripture to say

Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.

 

[brightfame52]

I can read quite well; I’ve read nothing exegetical to support your argument.

Doug

reading and seeing are different

 

[TibiasDad]

reading and seeing are different

That is obvious given your viewpoint. There hasn’t been a Calvinistic argument offered in my 46 years of studying for and being in ministry- and I’ve heard and read a lot of them- that has even come close to standing up to my objections or convincing me that they have a point!

Doug