An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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Sorry, the verse clearly shows believing precedes new life
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
As usual, your beliefs are contrary to scripture
civic
Well-known member
Yes he has backwards theology placing the cart before the horse
brightfame52
Well-known member
Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit
Sorry, the verse clearly shows believing precedes new life
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
As usual, your beliefs are contrary to scripture
The bible is not her authority
brightfame52
Well-known member
Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.
Lord Jesus Christ declares all aspects of Christian Life, including believing in Jesus and coming to Jesus and bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit, are we Christians abiding in Christ when He says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" ((John 15:5); however, you believe not Jesus Christ because you declare "John 15:5 concerns believers bearing fruit".
Lord Jesus Christ declares no one can righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God unless God first births the person anew when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); however, you believe not Jesus Christ because you declare "John 3:3 concerns entering into -experiencing the kingdom of God".
Lord Jesus Christ declares no one can come to near serve King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God unless God first wrings the new birth in the person when He says "the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21); however, you believe not Jesus Christ because you declare "John 3:3 concerns entering into -experiencing the kingdom of God" and your heart obliterates "The dead do not praise the LORD" (Psalm 115:17) because you believe the dead in sin praise the Lord Jesus Christ before being born again.
Lord Jesus Christ declares in His Love that He exclusively chooses all Christians in all time unto eternal Life and bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit when He says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); however, you believe not Jesus Christ because you declare "John 15:16 concerns the selection of the apostles".
Lord Jesus Christ declares in His Love that He exclusively causes all Christians in all time to receive Christ and eternal Life and bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit when He says “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me” (John 14:6, includes salvation); however, you believe not Jesus Christ because you declare "John 15:16 concerns the selection of the apostles".
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE KING JESUS CHRIST OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!
The display of the flesh is easily discerned in dogmatic and contentious posts, even to the point of placing a blasphemous noun in front of our Lord's name, a noun that our Lord said one is in danger of the fires of hell for using against a fellow brother. How much more is one in danger when blaspheming the Lord with that same noun in passionate dislike of one whom the Lord has saved?
I caution all us to recognize the difference between responding to one another in the flesh and the Spirit.
"Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit." (Gal 5:19-25)
Let us be peacemakers and not troublemakers. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Mat 5:9)
"Finally, brothers, rejoice. Be perfected, be comforted, be of the same mind, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you. (2Co 13:11)
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;" (Heb 12:14-15)
I pray that all who read this take to heart the word of the Lord himself and His chosen Apostles.
To debate is one thing; to debate peacefully and by the Spirit is another.
God Bless
I caution all us to recognize the difference between responding to one another in the flesh and the Spirit.
"Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit." (Gal 5:19-25)
Let us be peacemakers and not troublemakers. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Mat 5:9)
"Finally, brothers, rejoice. Be perfected, be comforted, be of the same mind, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you. (2Co 13:11)
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;" (Heb 12:14-15)
I pray that all who read this take to heart the word of the Lord himself and His chosen Apostles.
To debate is one thing; to debate peacefully and by the Spirit is another.
God Bless
John 6:44 onlys says there must be a drawing for people to come. It doesn't say they all came just because they were drawn. Without a drawing nobody comes. And some may have already hardened their hearts in a previous drawing. and won't come.
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And John 6:40 defines those the Father gives to the Son ie first seeing and believing. They are the ones that consequently come in John 6:44.
John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that **every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him**, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And sometime or other all get drawn. Some have already hardened and won't come, and some just won't come and harden on the spot.
John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Drawing encompasses Regeneration, Faith, Repentance, the total conversion experience.
Sorry you just repeated your error ignoring the fact
John 15:5 concerns believers bearing fruit. John 3:3 concerns entering into -experiencing the kingdom of God and John 15:16 concerns the selection of the apostles. All of which have been explained to you multiple times with scripture, Lexicons and commentary which you promptly just ignore
You ignored scripture again
this verse clearly shows believing precedes new life
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Believing is the result of having new Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit, The elect believe through the Spirit 1 Pet 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
obeying the Truth and believing are one and the same.
Hi Kampioen! Good to see you here in civic's forum. You're the Champion of Libertarian Free Will if I remember you correctly in that infamous carm calvinist forum. You'll be much more appreciated here.
Not according to scripture
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
P.S. unbelievers do not receive the Spirit.
The Jailor in Acts 16:30 was drawn and wanted and sought to be saved but didn't know how.
That could last weeks and maybe years if nobody tells him.
Was he already saved all that time?
Acts 16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
I'm returning to where we previously left off, civic. You and your free-willian philosopher cohort are unable to righteously respond.
Your question belies that you either don't read posts to you or you are blind - just see later in this post.
CHRIST'S ATONEMENT SUCCEEDS FOR EVERY CHOSEN ONE OF HIS OWN, AND NOT ONE MORE NOR ONE LESS.
“The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
CHRIST'S FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.
The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your faulty grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) command "to hold to civic's beliefs" hold no merit here!
Yes it’s all Greek to himhis Greek is the equivalent of my Aramaic- non existent
Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.
CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.
In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).
Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).
Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.
Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Let's look at more of your deceptions and falsehoods about the Word of God and bearing false witness.
You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!
You publicly proved yourself a deceiver with your post, there, civic.
You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!
Now, back to where we left off.
Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".
You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".
Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.
You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.
That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"
(John 8:39-45)
When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.
See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.
Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CONTROLLING MY DESTINY!!!
civic
Well-known member
Revelation 12:10- The Accuser of the brethren has spoken once again speaking falsehoods. cf John 8:44
for out of the heart he speaketh all kinds of evil.
@Kermos continues to run away from all the Bible verses that you, myself, and everyone else has forwarded to him. Here's one of many cases where Kermos runs away as fast as his legs can take him:
Run Kermos Run!
