An Article on free will

[TibiasDad]

The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".

Master is the direct object of “denying”; technically, the whole phrase “τὸν ἀγοράσαντα αὐτοὺς δεσπότην” is the object, because ἀγοράσαντα is a descriptor of δεσπότην.

There is nothing improper about the English use of “who”, in fact the English idiom could have used the words “which” or “that” as an indicator of the source of the action “having bought”.

Doug

 

[civic]

Is He a man when He changes His mind? It's says specifically He is not a man that He should change so if He changes His mind it stands to reason He at least at that moment He is a man.

Why do you leave out the first part of verse ?

God is not a man ( that He should lie ) ???

 

[civic]

No debate... just a thought.

Did you ever wonder, even for a fleeting moment if somehow you might be a reprobate?

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death

No since God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

A person is never born or created as a reprobate . They become reprobates as Paul describes is Romans 1.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind ofGod our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

 

[TomL]

Is He a man when He changes His mind? It's says specifically He is not a man that He should change so if He changes His mind it stands to reason He at least at that moment He is a man.

Still ignoring context. The point is as previously noted man can be arbitrary and change on a whim

God is not like that and in the absence of justification he does not arbitrarily change his mind

all the verses surround the text in question are important

Calvinists it seems routinely isolate verses from their context for it is the only way they can hold their theology

but the reason God could not change his mind is because

Numbers 23:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: The LORD his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them.

Had he then he could change his mind as we see at

Jeremiah 18:9–10 (KJV 1900) — 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

And you have done nothing at all to show my interpretation of Mal 3:6 is not sensible

In context one must understand men tend arbitrariness and are subject to change without justification, god however is not like that

 

[TomL]

gobbledygook, n. meanings, etymology and more | Oxford English Dictionary

gobbledygook, n. meanings, etymology, pronunciation and more in the Oxford English Dictionary

www.oed.com

Doug

Seems there is little that comes from his posting that have any validity

 

[civic]

Seems there is little that comes from his posting that have any validity

Ditto nothing but ad Homs

 

[Kermos]

Where was he in these verse

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim and you never actually address



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Apostle Peter says Matthias accompanied the apostles all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among the apostles beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from the apostles (Acts 1:21-23), so you persist in calling the apostles all liars because Peter said Matthias was at the supper recorded in John chapter 15 as per the below. Your time reference skills are impaired because the conversation's explicit context of "you twelve" recorded in John 6:70-71 is not used by Jesus as the conversation's recorded in John 15:16-19, in fact, Jesus constrains not the context with "you twelve" anywhere recorded in John chapters 14-17; furthermore, your cognitive skills are impaired because Matthias was present per Peter when Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 6:70-71, but the Christ's reference was to "you twelve" in that particular instance - specifically telling everyone that one apostle would betray Him - and there is the context for John 6:70-71. Your heart obliterates Lord Jesus Christ's context.

[Edit]

You deceptively omit that the post to which you replied explains that Christ is the cause of we Christians good works. We Christians joyfully do the works caused by Christ. Let's look at it.

Let me know when you are going to stop calling Jesus a liar and avoiding arguments

sorry you ignored scripture, context, Greek scholarship and commentary

All repeat stuff which ignores rebuttal and is simply repeated over and over

But worse of all you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do

As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.

You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).​

​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!

 

[Kermos]

Admittedly starting late in this, just wanted to interject a differing translation that brings a new meaning to Titus 2:11.

Titus 2:11 PESHITTA ~ 11For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;

So Judas did have God's saving grace revealed to him. The question is... Was it his free will that had him greedily turn Jesus over... OR
was he actually preselected by God, the father , to be the one to fulfill not only prophecy but God's plan from the beginning?

The Peshitta Titus 2:11 does not erase the Greek Titus 2:11, so the free-willian philosophical Greek Titus 2:11 predicament persists for Peshitta believing people; moreover, the discussion about "all men" and "world" extended well beyond Titus 2:11 with passages such as John 3:2-21 and 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29 in the post to which you replied.

Please read this carefully because this post exposes the free-willian philosophy fighting against Holy Scripture such as Titus 2:11 and John 3:2-21 and 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29.

Sorry that simply means you have not addressed them and are in denial

You still do nothing at all to address all the verses which state Christ was given for all

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Or the fact of God's love and his giving of Christ for the world

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not

which all you can do is ignore

Just as you ignored the Fact Jesus gave his body and blood for judas

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

John 4:42 (KJV) — 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 (KJV) — 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


you still provide nothing which shows world equals elect only




1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

and cannot show a meaning of believers alone anywhere in 1John

The verse does not support you as already shown

1 John 2:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No honnest interpreter would imagine the term means the elect alone as your theology requires

FAILURE ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You fail to address the Holy Scripture proclaimed to you, and the verses you presented do nothing to correct your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) belief in a failure Christ.

Behold, Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your own interpretation - all your prophecy amounts to TomL 2:11 (your adulteration of Titus 2:11), TomL 3:2-21 (your adulteration of John 3:2-21), 1 TomL 2:2 (your adulteration of 1 John 2:2), and TomL 1:29 (your adulteration of John 1:29), and your writing of "there are no such scriptures" (proof post #3,173) proves that your prophecy is false. You void your own thoughts!

In Truth (John 14:6), you mention 1 John 2:2, and God had me mention 1 John 2:2 with specific identification of your adulteration to 1 John 2:2. I could go on about other verses like this, but this is enough to establish matters.

It is written "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1), so your spirit can be tested according to your prophecy, so let's move forward with examining your writings that are your prophecy.

Christ died for all

Judas and Nancy as well

Before Christ made atonement on the cross bringing salvation to "all men", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "all men" as recorded in Titus 2:11.

Your preach that Judas Iscariot is included in "all men", so your prophecy adulterates the Holy Scripture into the traditions of men:

The traditions of men		Holy Scripture
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men including Judas Iscariot of the world who is eternally under the wrath of God (TomL 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

But Jesus failed to bring Judas salvation per Free-willian Philosophers, so your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture go again and again.

Before Christ made atonement for the sin of "the world", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "the world" as recorded in John 3:16.

You quoted John 3:14-18 out of it's greater context of John 3:2-21, so God has me not only restore the greater context but show your adulterations underlined for ease of reading.

Your heart puts Judas Iscariot into "the world" and your heart puts believing (John 3:9-21) before being born of God (John 3:2-8), so your adulteration is reflected in the word of TomL:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
2(9) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 3(10) Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 4(11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 5(12) If I told you earthly things and you do not cause yourself to believe, how will you cause yourself to believe if I tell you heavenly things? 6(13) No one has ascended into heaven except men who judge right in their own initiative to believe in Me and He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 7(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness for the world including people outside of Israel, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 8(15) so that whoever is unborn of God choosing to believe will have [/u]born his dead self into[/u] eternal life. 9(16) For God so loved the world including Judas Iscariot, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever, loving darkness instead of the Light, wroughts to believe by himself in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 10(17) For God did not send the Son into the world including Judas Iscariot to judge the world including Judas Iscariot, but to save the world including Judas Iscariot who I fail to save from the wrath of God through Him. 11(18) He who forced God to cause himself to be born again because of his self-willed believing in Him is not judged; he who does not choose to believe has been judged already, because he has not chosen to believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 12(19) This is the judgment, that the Light has come into Judas Iscariot and the world and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 13(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 14(21) But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 15(2) this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 16(3) Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is not born again he can see the kingdom of God.” 17(4) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 18(5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is born of water and the Spirit he can enter into the kingdom of God. 19(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh and this evil flesh profits the flesh and this evil flesh pleases God, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit of no significance. 20(7) Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 21(8) The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do know exactly where it comes from and exactly where it is going because your choosing of Me controls your becoming born of the Spirit; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (TomL 3:2-21 (no longer the Word of God))		2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:2-21)

since it is written "You hate all who do iniquity" (Psalm 5:5), then God hates Judas Iscariot the doer of the iniquity of betraying Jesus Christ; therefore, Judas Iscariot is not included in "the world" as recorded in John 3:16. Your heart makes God's love for the world including Judas Iscariot miserably weak, ineffectual, and of no consequence.

So, your spirit prophecies a very different message than the marvelous Holy Spirit inspired Word of God sayings. For important detail, please see post #2,121.

For similar reasons, Judas is not a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word. Your word is wrong side while the Apostle's word is right side:

Wrong Side		Right Side
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world including Judas Iscariot the son of destruction, so Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for Judas Iscariot. (1 TomL 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

For similar reasons, Judas Iscariot is not part of "the world" in John the Baptist's saying. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world including Judas Iscariot! (TomL 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Since you believe Judas Iscariot is included in Christ's atonement, then you believe that Christ's atonement leads to destruction because Judas Iscariot is "the son of destruction".

Judas Iscariot is not included in Christ's atonement because Judas was "the son of destruction" before the crucifixion.

You preach a failure atonement for Christ.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO CAUSES EVERYONE OF HIS OWN TO PERCEIVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

 

[TibiasDad]

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Jesus only chose 12 personally! There were 120 in the upper room, but Jesus didn’t personally choose them to be among the 12. There were the 12, and then everyone else.

Doug

 

[civic]

The Peshitta Titus 2:11 does not erase the Greek Titus 2:11, so the free-willian philosophical Greek Titus 2:11 predicament persists for Peshitta believing people; moreover, the discussion about "all men" and "world" extended well beyond Titus 2:11 with passages such as John 3:2-21 and 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29 in the post to which you replied.

Please read this carefully because this post exposes the free-willian philosophy fighting against Holy Scripture such as Titus 2:11 and John 3:2-21 and 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29.



FAILURE ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You fail to address the Holy Scripture proclaimed to you, and the verses you presented do nothing to correct your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) belief in a failure Christ.

Behold, Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your own interpretation - all your prophecy amounts to TomL 2:11 (your adulteration of Titus 2:11), TomL 3:2-21 (your adulteration of John 3:2-21), 1 TomL 2:2 (your adulteration of 1 John 2:2), and TomL 1:29 (your adulteration of John 1:29), and your writing of "there are no such scriptures" (proof post #3,173) proves that your prophecy is false. You void your own thoughts!

In Truth (John 14:6), you mention 1 John 2:2, and God had me mention 1 John 2:2 with specific identification of your adulteration to 1 John 2:2. I could go on about other verses like this, but this is enough to establish matters.

It is written "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1), so your spirit can be tested according to your prophecy, so let's move forward with examining your writings that are your prophecy.



Before Christ made atonement on the cross bringing salvation to "all men", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "all men" as recorded in Titus 2:11.

Your preach that Judas Iscariot is included in "all men", so your prophecy adulterates the Holy Scripture into the traditions of men:

The traditions of men		Holy Scripture
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men including Judas Iscariot of the world who is eternally under the wrath of God (TomL 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

But Jesus failed to bring Judas salvation per Free-willian Philosophers, so your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture go again and again.

Before Christ made atonement for the sin of "the world", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "the world" as recorded in John 3:16.

You quoted John 3:14-18 out of it's greater context of John 3:2-21, so God has me not only restore the greater context but show your adulterations underlined for ease of reading.

Your heart puts Judas Iscariot into "the world" and your heart puts believing (John 3:9-21) before being born of God (John 3:2-8), so your adulteration is reflected in the word of TomL:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
2(9) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 3(10) Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 4(11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 5(12) If I told you earthly things and you do not cause yourself to believe, how will you cause yourself to believe if I tell you heavenly things? 6(13) No one has ascended into heaven except men who judge right in their own initiative to believe in Me and He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 7(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness for the world including people outside of Israel, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 8(15) so that whoever is unborn of God choosing to believe will have [/u]born his dead self into[/u] eternal life. 9(16) For God so loved the world including Judas Iscariot, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever, loving darkness instead of the Light, wroughts to believe by himself in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 10(17) For God did not send the Son into the world including Judas Iscariot to judge the world including Judas Iscariot, but to save the world including Judas Iscariot who I fail to save from the wrath of God through Him. 11(18) He who forced God to cause himself to be born again because of his self-willed believing in Him is not judged; he who does not choose to believe has been judged already, because he has not chosen to believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 12(19) This is the judgment, that the Light has come into Judas Iscariot and the world and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 13(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 14(21) But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 15(2) this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 16(3) Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is not born again he can see the kingdom of God.” 17(4) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 18(5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is born of water and the Spirit he can enter into the kingdom of God. 19(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh and this evil flesh profits the flesh and this evil flesh pleases God, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit of no significance. 20(7) Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 21(8) The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do know exactly where it comes from and exactly where it is going because your choosing of Me controls your becoming born of the Spirit; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (TomL 3:2-21 (no longer the Word of God))		2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:2-21)

since it is written "You hate all who do iniquity" (Psalm 5:5), then God hates Judas Iscariot the doer of the iniquity of betraying Jesus Christ; therefore, Judas Iscariot is not included in "the world" as recorded in John 3:16. Your heart makes God's love for the world including Judas Iscariot miserably weak, ineffectual, and of no consequence.

So, your spirit prophecies a very different message than the marvelous Holy Spirit inspired Word of God sayings. For important detail, please see post #2,121.

For similar reasons, Judas is not a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word. Your word is wrong side while the Apostle's word is right side:

Wrong Side		Right Side
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world including Judas Iscariot the son of destruction, so Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for Judas Iscariot. (1 TomL 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

For similar reasons, Judas Iscariot is not part of "the world" in John the Baptist's saying. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world including Judas Iscariot! (TomL 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Since you believe Judas Iscariot is included in Christ's atonement, then you believe that Christ's atonement leads to destruction because Judas Iscariot is "the son of destruction".

Judas Iscariot is not included in Christ's atonement because Judas was "the son of destruction" before the crucifixion.

You preach a failure atonement for Christ.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO CAUSES EVERYONE OF HIS OWN TO PERCEIVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

Gobblygook

 

[TomL]

The Peshitta Titus 2:11 does not erase the Greek Titus 2:11, so the free-willian philosophical Greek Titus 2:11 predicament persists for Peshitta believing people; moreover, the discussion about "all men" and "world" extended well beyond Titus 2:11 with passages such as John 3:2-21 and 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29 in the post to which you replied.

Please read this carefully because this post exposes the free-willian philosophy fighting against Holy Scripture such as Titus 2:11 and John 3:2-21 and 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29.



FAILURE ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You fail to address the Holy Scripture proclaimed to you, and the verses you presented do nothing to correct your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) belief in a failure Christ.

Behold, Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your own interpretation - all your prophecy amounts to TomL 2:11 (your adulteration of Titus 2:11), TomL 3:2-21 (your adulteration of John 3:2-21), 1 TomL 2:2 (your adulteration of 1 John 2:2), and TomL 1:29 (your adulteration of John 1:29), and your writing of "there are no such scriptures" (proof post #3,173) proves that your prophecy is false. You void your own thoughts!

In Truth (John 14:6), you mention 1 John 2:2, and God had me mention 1 John 2:2 with specific identification of your adulteration to 1 John 2:2. I could go on about other verses like this, but this is enough to establish matters.

It is written "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1), so your spirit can be tested according to your prophecy, so let's move forward with examining your writings that are your prophecy.



Before Christ made atonement on the cross bringing salvation to "all men", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "all men" as recorded in Titus 2:11.

Your preach that Judas Iscariot is included in "all men", so your prophecy adulterates the Holy Scripture into the traditions of men:

The traditions of men		Holy Scripture
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men including Judas Iscariot of the world who is eternally under the wrath of God (TomL 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

But Jesus failed to bring Judas salvation per Free-willian Philosophers, so your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture go again and again.

Before Christ made atonement for the sin of "the world", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "the world" as recorded in John 3:16.

You quoted John 3:14-18 out of it's greater context of John 3:2-21, so God has me not only restore the greater context but show your adulterations underlined for ease of reading.

Your heart puts Judas Iscariot into "the world" and your heart puts believing (John 3:9-21) before being born of God (John 3:2-8), so your adulteration is reflected in the word of TomL:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
2(9) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 3(10) Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 4(11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 5(12) If I told you earthly things and you do not cause yourself to believe, how will you cause yourself to believe if I tell you heavenly things? 6(13) No one has ascended into heaven except men who judge right in their own initiative to believe in Me and He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 7(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness for the world including people outside of Israel, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 8(15) so that whoever is unborn of God choosing to believe will have [/u]born his dead self into[/u] eternal life. 9(16) For God so loved the world including Judas Iscariot, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever, loving darkness instead of the Light, wroughts to believe by himself in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 10(17) For God did not send the Son into the world including Judas Iscariot to judge the world including Judas Iscariot, but to save the world including Judas Iscariot who I fail to save from the wrath of God through Him. 11(18) He who forced God to cause himself to be born again because of his self-willed believing in Him is not judged; he who does not choose to believe has been judged already, because he has not chosen to believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 12(19) This is the judgment, that the Light has come into Judas Iscariot and the world and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 13(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 14(21) But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 15(2) this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 16(3) Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is not born again he can see the kingdom of God.” 17(4) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 18(5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is born of water and the Spirit he can enter into the kingdom of God. 19(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh and this evil flesh profits the flesh and this evil flesh pleases God, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit of no significance. 20(7) Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 21(8) The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do know exactly where it comes from and exactly where it is going because your choosing of Me controls your becoming born of the Spirit; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (TomL 3:2-21 (no longer the Word of God))		2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:2-21)

since it is written "You hate all who do iniquity" (Psalm 5:5), then God hates Judas Iscariot the doer of the iniquity of betraying Jesus Christ; therefore, Judas Iscariot is not included in "the world" as recorded in John 3:16. Your heart makes God's love for the world including Judas Iscariot miserably weak, ineffectual, and of no consequence.

So, your spirit prophecies a very different message than the marvelous Holy Spirit inspired Word of God sayings. For important detail, please see post #2,121.

For similar reasons, Judas is not a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word. Your word is wrong side while the Apostle's word is right side:

Wrong Side		Right Side
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world including Judas Iscariot the son of destruction, so Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for Judas Iscariot. (1 TomL 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

For similar reasons, Judas Iscariot is not part of "the world" in John the Baptist's saying. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world including Judas Iscariot! (TomL 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Since you believe Judas Iscariot is included in Christ's atonement, then you believe that Christ's atonement leads to destruction because Judas Iscariot is "the son of destruction".

Judas Iscariot is not included in Christ's atonement because Judas was "the son of destruction" before the crucifixion.

You preach a failure atonement for Christ.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO CAUSES EVERYONE OF HIS OWN TO PERCEIVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

Let me know when you are wlling to actually address these

Sorry that simply means you have not addressed them and are in denial

You still do nothing at all to address all the verses which state Christ was given for all

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Or the fact of God's love and his giving of Christ for the world

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not

which all you can do is ignore

Just as you ignored the Fact Jesus gave his body and blood for judas

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

John 4:42 (KJV) — 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 (KJV) — 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


you still provide nothing which shows world equals elect only




1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

and cannot show a meaning of believers alone anywhere in 1John

The verse does not support you as already shown

1 John 2:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No honest interpreter would imagine the term means the elect alone as your theology requires

Also let me know where in the bible atonement of itself saves apart from faith

Rather atonement is made for all to save those that believes

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It does not fail to save those that believe so any failure exists only in your mind

 

[TomL]

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Apostle Peter says Matthias accompanied the apostles all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among the apostles beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from the apostles (Acts 1:21-23), so you persist in calling the apostles all liars because Peter said Matthias was at the supper recorded in John chapter 15 as per the below. Your time reference skills are impaired because the conversation's explicit context of "you twelve" recorded in John 6:70-71 is not used by Jesus as the conversation's recorded in John 15:16-19, in fact, Jesus constrains not the context with "you twelve" anywhere recorded in John chapters 14-17; furthermore, your cognitive skills are impaired because Matthias was present per Peter when Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 6:70-71, but the Christ's reference was to "you twelve" in that particular instance - specifically telling everyone that one apostle would betray Him - and there is the context for John 6:70-71. Your heart obliterates Lord Jesus Christ's context.

So where is he?

Where was he in these verse

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


Matthias is not here when Jesus chose the 12

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.



Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Um He is not here

The verse does not indicate he is always where the 12 are, which is what you argue

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim and you never actually address



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

How many did Christ chose here, and for what purpose?

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

 

[synergy]

No debate... just a thought.

Did you ever wonder, even for a fleeting moment if somehow you might be a reprobate?

Where do you get off taking cheap shots at others? Who appointed you judge of another's standing before God? For sure @TibiasDad is definitely NOT a reprobate.

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death

You are free to follow John Calvin's Elect/non-Elect Caste System heretical beliefs. We choose to follow the Bible.

 

[Kermos]

What part of “choose for yourselves” says ‘the Lord will choose for you whom you will serve’?

Doug

@TomL and other free-willians conveyed Joshua 24:15 as a proof text that man can choose God; therefore, TomL 24:15-31 is an accurate translation of Free-willian Philosophy.

Note that God caused me to post this to TomL and other free-willians:

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
​

And, TibiasDad, they responded with Joshua 24:15, and, later, TomL responded with Joshua 24:31; moreover, free-willians explained their position, so I carefully read their posts, in this case, TomL's posts, which resulted the revelation that TomL 24:15-31 preaches a different god than the One True God as preached through Joshua 24:15-31.

Here is an example which includes TomL fabricating a false statement which he attributes to me then he proceeds to debate his fabricated false statement - a statement which God did not cause me to write. Please recognize that more posts are involved with this matter.

you never addressed the text at all

You claimed man has no power to choose to serve God

this passage refuted you

Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 2020) — 15 But if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served, which were beyond the Euphrates River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would abandon the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves, and did these great signs in our sight and watched over us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your wrongdoing or your sins. 20 If you abandon the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and destroy you after He has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now then, do away with the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Then Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us, because it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; so it shall be a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 Now it came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being 110 years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance, in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known every deed of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

so when will you stop denying scripture and believe

No Holy Scripture that you cite contains the Word of God stating man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your post is so very heavily leavened with your own interpretation's error that your heart converts Joshua's word into TomL's word shown below.

God uses me to proclaim Truth (John 14:6), and I faced your deception, and God caused me to illuminate that you adulterate Holy Scripture in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God recorded in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, so your own interpretation's intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL 24:14-31		Joshua 24:14-31
15 If it is evil in your sight to choose to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living, or the LORD by the ability God gave you to choose the One True God; but as for me and my house, we choose to serve the LORD. 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also choose to serve the LORD, for we believe that God created us with the ability to choose God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will be able to serve the LORD, for you are good. He is not a jealous God; He does not need to forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 you will not forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, so He will not turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but according to our free-will, we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are not witnesses against yourselves that you have used your God given ability to choose for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses for ourselves.” 23 “Now therefore, in your own initiative to judge rightly to choose to put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and cause your hearts to choose the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We do not care that God never says that He created us with the ability to choose to serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness benefiting us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness for you, so that your God does not deny you.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 "Israel," declares the LORD God, "successfully chose to put away the foreign gods, and Israel chose the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and the people have come into My Holy Presence in Heaven who died after Joshua died but before the elders died, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel, and I will abuse my Son, the Messiah, by sending Him to suffer needlessly because these people chose the LORD God causing themselves to be in my presence forevermore". (TomL 24:15-31)		15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 when you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel. (Joshua 24:14-31)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your heart deletes God's glorious self-description in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, and then you conveyed that the people were imparted by YHWH God with the "power to choose to serve God", so your actions are evidence of your opposition to the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)!

Your heart's thoughts exhibit the free-willian pattern of deleting God's glorious self-description while at the same time exalting man above the Most High with your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-description of your purported ability to control God with your "I chose God", and the above two paragraphs illuminate two separate instances; additionally, the evidence is throughout this thread.

Refer to post #3,237 for the integral continuation of this post, and this post #3,237 shows the people did not put away the foreign gods until multiple generations later thus not serving God with their whole heart during the time of Joshua and the elders.

God caused me to write:

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
​

In your "you claimed they had no power to choose to serve God" you malignantly deleted the glorious description of "God imparted".

You fabricate a different writing than the writing that God caused me to compose. Then you argue against your fabrication. Your are being disengeious.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YOUR TESTIMONIES ARE FULLY CONFIRMED; HOLINESS BEFITS YOUR HOUSE, O YHWH, FOREVERMORE!!!

 

[civic]

@TomL and other free-willians conveyed Joshua 24:15 as a proof text that man can choose God; therefore, TomL 24:15-31 is an accurate translation of Free-willian Philosophy.

Note that God caused me to post this to TomL and other free-willians:

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
​

And, TibiasDad, they responded with Joshua 24:15, and, later, TomL responded with Joshua 24:31; moreover, free-willians explained their position, so I carefully read their posts, in this case, TomL's posts, which resulted the revelation that TomL 24:15-31 preaches a different god than the One True God as preached through Joshua 24:15-31.

Here is an example which includes TomL fabricating a false statement which he attributes to me then he proceeds to debate his fabricated false statement - a statement which God did not cause me to write. Please recognize that more posts are involved with this matter.



No Holy Scripture that you cite contains the Word of God stating man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your post is so very heavily leavened with your own interpretation's error that your heart converts Joshua's word into TomL's word shown below.

God uses me to proclaim Truth (John 14:6), and I faced your deception, and God caused me to illuminate that you adulterate Holy Scripture in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God recorded in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, so your own interpretation's intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL 24:14-31		Joshua 24:14-31
15 If it is evil in your sight to choose to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living, or the LORD by the ability God gave you to choose the One True God; but as for me and my house, we choose to serve the LORD. 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also choose to serve the LORD, for we believe that God created us with the ability to choose God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will be able to serve the LORD, for you are good. He is not a jealous God; He does not need to forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 you will not forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, so He will not turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but according to our free-will, we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are not witnesses against yourselves that you have used your God given ability to choose for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses for ourselves.” 23 “Now therefore, in your own initiative to judge rightly to choose to put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and cause your hearts to choose the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We do not care that God never says that He created us with the ability to choose to serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness benefiting us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness for you, so that your God does not deny you.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 "Israel," declares the LORD God, "successfully chose to put away the foreign gods, and Israel chose the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and the people have come into My Holy Presence in Heaven who died after Joshua died but before the elders died, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel, and I will abuse my Son, the Messiah, by sending Him to suffer needlessly because these people chose the LORD God causing themselves to be in my presence forevermore". (TomL 24:15-31)		15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 when you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel. (Joshua 24:14-31)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your heart deletes God's glorious self-description in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, and then you conveyed that the people were imparted by YHWH God with the "power to choose to serve God", so your actions are evidence of your opposition to the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)!

Your heart's thoughts exhibit the free-willian pattern of deleting God's glorious self-description while at the same time exalting man above the Most High with your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-description of your purported ability to control God with your "I chose God", and the above two paragraphs illuminate two separate instances; additionally, the evidence is throughout this thread.

Refer to post #3,237 for the integral continuation of this post, and this post #3,237 shows the people did not put away the foreign gods until multiple generations later thus not serving God with their whole heart during the time of Joshua and the elders.

God caused me to write:

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
​

In your "you claimed they had no power to choose to serve God" you malignantly deleted the glorious description of "God imparted".

You fabricate a different writing than the writing that God caused me to compose. Then you argue against your fabrication. Your are being disengeious.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YOUR TESTIMONIES ARE FULLY CONFIRMED; HOLINESS BEFITS YOUR HOUSE, O YHWH, FOREVERMORE!!!

your fatalistic god forced me to post this as I had no other choice. your post is nothing but :

GOBBLYGOOK.

 

[MTMattie]

Where do you get off taking cheap shots at others? Who appointed you judge of another's standing before God? For sure @TibiasDad is definitely NOT a reprobate.

Hey, Absolutely no cheap shot here.
I simply was wondering about those who are followers and what the self appointed prophet John Calvin said. There are enough predestined/ Calvin followers that I was simply curious.

That is precisely what Calvinism says: ForGod predestined whatsoever comes to pass!

And I said.....
No debate... just a thought.

Did you ever wonder, even for a fleeting moment if somehow you might be a reprobate? (It is a generalized question for anyone or noone)

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death
(One should note that there is not an identifying comment on who gets chosen and who does not. So for all I know, if Calvin is right
I very well could be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death". And according to Calvin there would be nothing I could do about it.)

You are free to follow John Calvin's Elect/non-Elect Caste System heretical beliefs. We choose to follow the Bible.

If you have not considered it... Calvin leaves out more then he puts in to everything.
I am not A Calvin groupie. I am not a predestined believer in the way that those who are , are. I am a free will believer knowing that God had Foreknowledge ... period. And that His plan from beginning to end is going along smashingly.
I would remove my comment but it is too late to make adjustments... so maybe one of the mods will do so???????? Dont want to be offensive to anyone.

 

[TomL]

@TomL and other free-willians conveyed Joshua 24:15 as a proof text that man can choose God; therefore, TomL 24:15-31 is an accurate translation of Free-willian Philosophy.

Note that God caused me to post this to TomL and other free-willians:

​

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!​

​

And, TibiasDad, they responded with Joshua 24:15, and, later, TomL responded with Joshua 24:31; moreover, free-willians explained their position, so I carefully read their posts, in this case, TomL's posts, which resulted the revelation that TomL 24:15-31 preaches a different god than the One True God as preached through Joshua 24:15-31.

Here is an example which includes TomL fabricating a false statement which he attributes to me then he proceeds to debate his fabricated false statement - a statement which God did not cause me to write. Please recognize that more posts are involved with this matter.



No Holy Scripture that you cite contains the Word of God stating man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your post is so very heavily leavened with your own interpretation's error that your heart converts Joshua's word into TomL's word shown below.

God uses me to proclaim Truth (John 14:6), and I faced your deception, and God caused me to illuminate that you adulterate Holy Scripture in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God recorded in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, so your own interpretation's intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL 24:14-31		Joshua 24:14-31
15 If it is evil in your sight to choose to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living, or the LORD by the ability God gave you to choose the One True God; but as for me and my house, we choose to serve the LORD. 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also choose to serve the LORD, for we believe that God created us with the ability to choose God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will be able to serve the LORD, for you are good. He is not a jealous God; He does not need to forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 you will not forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, so He will not turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but according to our free-will, we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are not witnesses against yourselves that you have used your God given ability to choose for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses for ourselves.” 23 “Now therefore, in your own initiative to judge rightly to choose to put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and cause your hearts to choose the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We do not care that God never says that He created us with the ability to choose to serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness benefiting us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness for you, so that your God does not deny you.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 "Israel," declares the LORD God, "successfully chose to put away the foreign gods, and Israel chose the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and the people have come into My Holy Presence in Heaven who died after Joshua died but before the elders died, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel, and I will abuse my Son, the Messiah, by sending Him to suffer needlessly because these people chose the LORD God causing themselves to be in my presence forevermore". (TomL 24:15-31)		15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 when you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel. (Joshua 24:14-31)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your heart deletes God's glorious self-description in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, and then you conveyed that the people were imparted by YHWH God with the "power to choose to serve God", so your actions are evidence of your opposition to the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)!

Your heart's thoughts exhibit the free-willian pattern of deleting God's glorious self-description while at the same time exalting man above the Most High with your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-description of your purported ability to control God with your "I chose God", and the above two paragraphs illuminate two separate instances; additionally, the evidence is throughout this thread.

Refer to post #3,237 for the integral continuation of this post, and this post #3,237 shows the people did not put away the foreign gods until multiple generations later thus not serving God with their whole heart during the time of Joshua and the elders.

God caused me to write:

​

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!​

​

In your "you claimed they had no power to choose to serve God" you malignantly deleted the glorious description of "God imparted".

You fabricate a different writing than the writing that God caused me to compose. Then you argue against your fabrication. Your are being disengeious.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YOUR TESTIMONIES ARE FULLY CONFIRMED; HOLINESS BEFITS YOUR HOUSE, O YHWH, FOREVERMORE!!!

Sorry you are simply in denial

Joshua 24:14–31 (NASB 2020) — 14 “Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and do away with the gods which your fathers served beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served, which were beyond the Euphrates River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would abandon the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves, and did these great signs in our sight and watched over us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your wrongdoing or your sins. 20 If you abandon the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and destroy you after He has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now then, do away with the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Then Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us, because it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; so it shall be a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 Now it came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being 110 years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance, in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known every deed of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

That is Josh 24:15-31 not TomL 24:15-31

That is scripture which you are denying

 

[TibiasDad]

@TomL and other free-willians conveyed Joshua 24:15 as a proof text that man can choose God; therefore, TomL 24:15-31 is an accurate translation of Free-willian Philosophy.

Note that God caused me to post this to TomL and other free-willians:

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

And, TibiasDad, they responded with Joshua 24:15, and, later, TomL responded with Joshua 24:31; moreover, free-willians explained their position, so I carefully read their posts, in this case, TomL's posts, which resulted the revelation that TomL 24:15-31 preaches a different god than the One True God as preached through Joshua 24:15-31.

Here is an example which includes TomL fabricating a false statement which he attributes to me then he proceeds to debate his fabricated false statement - a statement which God did not cause me to write. Please recognize that more posts are involved with this matter

It’s funny that none of this answers the question that I asked, namely “What part of “choose for yourselves” says ‘the Lord will choose for you whom you will serve’?”

Doug

 

[civic]

It’s funny that none of this answers the question that I asked, namely “What part of “choose for yourselves” says ‘the Lord will choose for you whom you will serve’?”

Doug

Yes it’s the same old cut n pastes

 

[TomL]

It’s funny that none of this answers the question that I asked, namely “What part of “choose for yourselves” says ‘the Lord will choose for you whom you will serve’?”

Doug

He just ignores scripture and quotes his theology