An Article on free will

Belief does not involve your will Doug? Interesting

Sure do otherwise "no one seeks after God".
I didn’t say that belief doesn’t involve the will; in fact I said both our views include the will! It’s just that you hold that God has to regenerate us before the will can turn toward God and express belief.

God’s grace and love can overwhelm the heart and enlighten the mind so as to see the truth sufficiently to make an informed decision about the gospel.

Spiritual death is a lack of relationship with God, not a lack of capacity. To say that God is incapable of overcoming the effects of sin and bringing us to the point of truly understanding our state of guilt before him and the hope he offers us in Christ, without having to regenerate us first is to suggest that sin is more powerful than grace.

There is very little difference between our perspectives, save for the order of events. God must overcome the power of sin in order for us to grasp the truth sufficiently to believe. He alone is capable of reconciling our broken relationship with him; he alone has the power to forgive our debt to him. This is why the capacity of man to desire or seek him is ultimately irrelevant; even if we were able to grasp the reality of our separation from God of our own accord, God can never be obligated to respond positively to us. That’s why it is Grace that saves us and not our human efforts; it is not only because we are not worthy of salvation and therefore don’t deserve his forgiveness, but, perhaps just as importantly, because God is never obligated to act in our behalf simply because we might want him to do so! We can never obligated God to do our bidding!

Works are incapable of obligating God; that’s why it is by Grace through faith.


Doug
 
I didn’t say that belief doesn’t involve the will; in fact I said both our views include the will! It’s just that you hold that God has to regenerate us before the will can turn toward God and express belief.

God’s grace and love can overwhelm the heart and enlighten the mind so as to see the truth sufficiently to make an informed decision about the gospel.

Spiritual death is a lack of relationship with God, not a lack of capacity. To say that God is incapable of overcoming the effects of sin and bringing us to the point of truly understanding our state of guilt before him and the hope he offers us in Christ, without having to regenerate us first is to suggest that sin is more powerful than grace.

There is very little difference between our perspectives, save for the order of events. God must overcome the power of sin in order for us to grasp the truth sufficiently to believe. He alone is capable of reconciling our broken relationship with him; he alone has the power to forgive our debt to him. This is why the capacity of man to desire or seek him is ultimately irrelevant; even if we were able to grasp the reality of our separation from God of our own accord, God can never be obligated to respond positively to us. That’s why it is Grace that saves us and not our human efforts; it is not only because we are not worthy of salvation and therefore don’t deserve his forgiveness, but, perhaps just as importantly, because God is never obligated to act in our behalf simply because we might want him to do so! We can never obligated God to do our bidding!

Works are incapable of obligating God; that’s why it is by Grace through faith.


Doug
Does your faith involve human effort?
 
Who says, then so is Numbers 23.

God is not a man that He should change His mind, nor lie unless, according to Tom, certain conditions are met.
Those who know what a didactic text is

and it is according to God himself

Jeremiah 18:7–10 (KJV 1900) — 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
 
Absolutely correct. Without the Calvinist Elect/non-Elect Caste System, @Kermos's Calvinism becomes Universalism. :oops:ROFLMAO

You consider Christ's blessed deliverance a laughing matter because you vulgarly wrote "ROFLMAO" to your buddy @TibiasDad. No Christian demeans salvation by Christ.

I told you before, and I'm telling you again. If you want me to even consider addressing your points, then you need to apologize to Red Baker for your long standing and repeated position of bearing false witness against him as shown per the below.

You fail with basic linguistics, synergy, and the following bears this fact out.

Did you expend any effort to read what I quoted from RB?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did.

RB is declaring that "you" (Nicodemus) is not the subject here. That places Nicodemus in a class by himself, apart from "a man". Basic English Grammar. Now if you want to backtrack from RB's statement then you have all the freedom in the world to do so.

Self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) you continues to refuse to apologize, that is clear, and you persist in bearing false witness against @Red Baker who stated:

Nicodemus' child like confession proved that he was already born of the Spirit of God, or, else he would had been just like the other leaders of the Pharisees who said that jesus did what he did under the power of the prince of the devils
in post #2,814 regarding the Lord’s saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YHWH IS MARVELOUS!!!
 
Those who know what a didactic text is

and it is according to God himself

Jeremiah 18:7–10 (KJV 1900) — 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
For those who know what a didactic text is, God is not a man that He should change His mind nor lie.

So if God can and does change His mind then does He also lie. Under certain conditions. LOL
 
You have the verses where is he

Sorry you just ignored the evidence

Sorry you have no evidence that Matthias was in the room

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

You persist in calling the apostles all liars because Peter said Matthias was at the supper recorded in John chapter 15 as per the below. Your time reference skills are impaired because the conversation's explicit context of "you twelve" recorded in John 6:70-71 is not used by Jesus as the conversation's recorded in John 15:16-19, in fact, Jesus constrains not the context with "you twelve" anywhere recorded in John chapters 14-17; furthermore, your cognitive skills are impaired because Matthias was present per Peter when Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 6:70-71, but the Christ's reference was to "you twelve" in that particular instance - specifically telling everyone that one apostle would betray Him - and there is the context for John 6:70-71. Your heart obliterates Lord Jesus Christ's context.

You deceptively omit that the post to which you replied explains that Christ is the cause of we Christians good works. We Christians joyfully do the works caused by Christ. Let's look at it.

Let me know when you are going to stop calling Jesus a liar and avoiding arguments

sorry you ignored scripture, context, Greek scholarship and commentary

All repeat stuff which ignores rebuttal and is simply repeated over and over

But worse of all you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do

As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.

You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!
 
For those who know what a didactic text is, God is not a man that He should change His mind nor lie.

So if God can and does change His mind then does He also lie. Under certain conditions. LOL
But we know in many places in Scripture God changes His mind and relenets/repents. And we know God is a man, became a man- the Son Incarnate, God Incarnate. So you are misunderstanding the passage, verse.

All the verse is saying is unlike man, God does not lie- change his mind has to do with lying.

hope this helps !!!
 
But we know in many places in Scripture God changes His mind and relenets/repents. And we know God is a man, became a man- the Son Incarnate, God Incarnate. So you are misunderstanding the passage, verse.

All the verse is saying is unlike man, God does not lie- change his mind has to do with lying.

hope this helps !!!
So given your logic it says God does not change His mind but He does, then it also says God does not lie but He does? If not, why not?

Why one and not the other?
 
So given your logic it says God does not change His mind but He does, then it also says God does not lie but He does? If not, why not?

Why one and not the other?
No you re misunderstanding the passage and not following the syllogism about man lying/changing His mind. God is not like man who lies/changes his mind.
 
So given your logic it says God does not change His mind but He does, then it also says God does not lie but He does? If not, why not?

Why one and not the other?
maybe you will believe this calvinist Gill who says the same things I'm saying which you are denying.

" let God be true, and every man a liar: he is God, that cannot lie; his counsels of old are faithfulness and truth; his promises yea and amen in Christ; the Scriptures inspired by him are true, and the prophecies of them are punctually accomplished, particularly what he foretold of the people of Israel, and promised unto them; that they should be happy, and inherit the land of Canaan; that be would be true and faithful to them, and there could be no hope, by any means whatever, to make him false and unfaithful to his word: neither the son of man, that he should repent; repentance is found in men, who repent for what they have done, or change their minds, as to what they intended to do or set about; perceiving it to be wrong to do it, or that they are able to do it, some unforeseen thing turning up they were not aware of: but nothing of this kind belongs to God"

hope this helps !!!
 
You consider Christ's blessed deliverance a laughing matter because you vulgarly wrote "ROFLMAO" to your buddy @TibiasDad. No Christian demeans salvation by Christ.
I explained what I was laughing at in my statement:
Without the Calvinist Elect/non-Elect Caste System, @Kermos's Calvinism becomes Universalism.:oops::ROFLMAO:
You want your Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System to cloud and infect what the Bible actually says about our salvation. It ain't going to happen buddy.
I told you before, and I'm telling you again. If you want me to even consider addressing your points, then you need to apologize to Red Baker for your long standing and repeated position of bearing false witness against him as shown per the below.

You fail with basic linguistics, synergy, and the following bears this fact out.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did.

Self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) you continues to refuse to apologize, that is clear, and you persist in bearing false witness against @Red Baker who stated:
Nicodemus' child like confession proved that he was already born of the Spirit of God, or, else he would had been just like the other leaders of the Pharisees who said that jesus did what he did under the power of the prince of the devils​
Again, you continue to misrepresent me on which RB's paragraph my comments were actually directed to. It's not beneath you to do that. See this link:


In fact, it's not beneath you to keep running away from Bible verses that expose the heresies of calvinism. See this link:


Run Kermos Run!
in post #2,814 regarding the Lord’s saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YHWH IS MARVELOUS!!!
Sorry, all the Bible quotes you cited do not support your Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System.
 
I explained what I was laughing at in my statement:

You want your Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System to cloud and infect what the Bible actually says about our salvation. It ain't going to happen buddy.

Again, you continue to misrepresent me on which RB's paragraph my comments were actually directed to. It's not beneath you to do that. See this link:


In fact, it's not beneath you to keep running away from Bible verses that expose the heresies of calvinism. See this link:


Run Kermos Run!

Sorry, all the Bible quotes you cited do not support your Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System.
Yes misrepresentation of both the Bible truths and us as well. John 8:39-45 comes to mind.
 
Back
Top Bottom