All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism

[dwight92070]

The Baptismal Regeneration crowd do not like these verses and therefore seldom, IF EVER, quote them. So we need to look at ALL of them, to see which verses they like to IGNORE.

Romans 1:5-6 " ... to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles ... among you also are the called of Jesus Christ." No Baptism required. (NBR) Notice even the obedience mentioned here is not the work of baptism, but the non-work of faith.

Romans 1:16 " ... the gospel ... is the power of God for salvation to everyone who BELIEVES ..." NBR

Romans 2:4 "... not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to REPENTANCE." NBR

Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION IS THAT WHICH IS OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the letter ..." NBR

Romans 3:22 "even the righteousness of God THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE ..." NBR

Romans 3:24 "being justified as a GIFT BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS." NBR

Romans 3:26 "... so that He would be just and the JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." NBR

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM WORKS OF THE LAW." NBR

Romans 3:30 "since indeed God WHO WILL JUSTIFY THE CIRCUMCISED BY FAITH AND THE UNCIRCUMCISED THROUGH FAITH is One." NBR

Romans 4:3 " ...Abraham BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NBR

Romans 4:5 "But TO THE ONE WHO DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NBR

Romans 4:6 "just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man TO WHOM GOD CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS." NBR

To be continued -

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Baptismal Regeneration crowd do not like these verses and therefore seldom, IF EVER, quote them. So we need to look at ALL of them, to see which verses they like to IGNORE.

I like your list (although I hope you will also quote from the gospels and from the Tanakh, and not only from Romans).

Interestingly, none of the verses you have quoted has the word "salvation" or "save", while the title of your thread is "All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism".
Don't take me wrong. I do believe all the verses you have quoted talk about salvation. They are fine, they are right to the point.

I'm just mentioning this not because of you, but for one of our brothers (was it @civic or @synergy?) who told me once that the biblical verses I about forgiveness that I have quoted did not apply to salvation, because forgiveness does not equal salvation.
I made him aware that it is impossible to think in a hell full of people who God has forgiven, or a heaven full of people who God has not forgiven.

I would like to make the same comment here.
The verses you have quoted mention "justification", "redemption" or God crediting somebody "righteousness".

It is impossible to think in a hell full of people who God has justified, or a heaven full of people that God has not justified.
A hell full of people to whom God has credited righteousness, or a heaven full of people to whom God has not.
Theologians like to make things more complicated than they are. Otherwise they wouldn't find justified the many years and scholarships spent in studying Theology. (I'm half serious and half joking here ).

Forgiveness, grace, mercy, justification, sanctification, being born again, etc. are all terms that point out to the same essential process.
We want to go from situation "A" to situation "B", and we can't do it by ourselves. We need God.
Situation "A" is slavery, spiritual death, hell, sinful life, etc. Situation "B" is freedom, eternal life, paradise, heaven, the life of the spirit, etc

 

[synergy]

I'm just mentioning this not because of you, but for one of our brothers (was it @civic or @synergy?) who told me once that the biblical verses I about forgiveness that I have quoted did not apply to salvation, because forgiveness does not equal salvation.

The OT is full of Saints that were not regenerated yet and therefore not saved yet. They were forgiven by God (best example: David) but there's no indication of spiritual salvation yet.

The NT is full of Saints that were regenerated and therefore saved. They were obviously forgiven because you can't be saved without being forgiven by God.

Now tell me why in your opinion is there salvation in the NT and not in the OT?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Baptismal Regeneration crowd do not like these verses and therefore seldom, IF EVER, quote them. So we need to look at ALL of them, to see which verses they like to IGNORE.

Romans 1:5-6 " ... to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles ... among you also are the called of Jesus Christ." No Baptism required. (NBR) Notice even the obedience mentioned here is not the work of baptism, but the non-work of faith.

Romans 1:16 " ... the gospel ... is the power of God for salvation to everyone who BELIEVES ..." NBR

Romans 2:4 "... not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to REPENTANCE." NBR

Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION IS THAT WHICH IS OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the letter ..." NBR

Romans 3:22 "even the righteousness of God THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE ..." NBR

Romans 3:24 "being justified as a GIFT BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS." NBR

Romans 3:26 "... so that He would be just and the JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." NBR

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM WORKS OF THE LAW." NBR

Romans 3:30 "since indeed God WHO WILL JUSTIFY THE CIRCUMCISED BY FAITH AND THE UNCIRCUMCISED THROUGH FAITH is One." NBR

Romans 4:3 " ...Abraham BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NBR

Romans 4:5 "But TO THE ONE WHO DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NBR

Romans 4:6 "just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man TO WHOM GOD CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS." NBR

To be continued -

Salvation is BY FAITH. Baptism is by obedience.

 

[dwight92070]

I like your list (although I hope you will also quote from the gospels and from the Tanakh, and not only from Romans).

Interestingly, none of the verses you have quoted has the word "salvation" or "save", while the title of your thread is "All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism".
Don't take me wrong. I do believe all the verses you have quoted talk about salvation. They are fine, they are right to the point.

I'm just mentioning this not because of you, but for one of our brothers (was it @civic or @synergy?) who told me once that the biblical verses I about forgiveness that I have quoted did not apply to salvation, because forgiveness does not equal salvation.
I made him aware that it is impossible to think in a hell full of people who God has forgiven, or a heaven full of people who God has not forgiven.

I would like to make the same comment here.
The verses you have quoted mention "justification", "redemption" or God crediting somebody "righteousness".

It is impossible to think in a hell full of people who God has justified, or a heaven full of people that God has not justified.
A hell full of people to whom God has credited righteousness, or a heaven full of people to whom God has not.
Theologians like to make things more complicated than they are. Otherwise they wouldn't find justified the many years and scholarships spent in studying Theology. (I'm half serious and half joking here ).

Forgiveness, grace, mercy, justification, sanctification, being born again, etc. are all terms that point out to the same essential process.
We want to go from situation "A" to situation "B", and we can't do it by ourselves. We need God.
Situation "A" is slavery, spiritual death, hell, sinful life, etc. Situation "B" is freedom, eternal life, paradise, heaven, the life of the spirit, etc

Well said - are you sure you're still BaHai?

 

[dwight92070]

I like your list (although I hope you will also quote from the gospels and from the Tanakh, and not only from Romans).

Interestingly, none of the verses you have quoted has the word "salvation" or "save", while the title of your thread is "All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism".
Don't take me wrong. I do believe all the verses you have quoted talk about salvation. They are fine, they are right to the point.

I'm just mentioning this not because of you, but for one of our brothers (was it @civic or @synergy?) who told me once that the biblical verses I about forgiveness that I have quoted did not apply to salvation, because forgiveness does not equal salvation.
I made him aware that it is impossible to think in a hell full of people who God has forgiven, or a heaven full of people who God has not forgiven.

I would like to make the same comment here.
The verses you have quoted mention "justification", "redemption" or God crediting somebody "righteousness".

It is impossible to think in a hell full of people who God has justified, or a heaven full of people that God has not justified.
A hell full of people to whom God has credited righteousness, or a heaven full of people to whom God has not.
Theologians like to make things more complicated than they are. Otherwise they wouldn't find justified the many years and scholarships spent in studying Theology. (I'm half serious and half joking here ).

Forgiveness, grace, mercy, justification, sanctification, being born again, etc. are all terms that point out to the same essential process.
We want to go from situation "A" to situation "B", and we can't do it by ourselves. We need God.
Situation "A" is slavery, spiritual death, hell, sinful life, etc. Situation "B" is freedom, eternal life, paradise, heaven, the life of the spirit, etc

I definitely want to do ALL of the New Covenant, which includes the gospels. The baptismal regeneration crowd usually argues that the lifetime of Jesus is part of the Old Covenant, so this wouldn't apply. But that too is wrong. Jesus tells us that the Law and the Prophets were until John. Luke 16:16. So Jesus' life was during the New Covenant. Also, Jesus' disciples DID baptize new believers or disciples. John 4:1 I don't see the need to do the Old Covenant since it does not mention baptism there. Obviously in the New Testament, many words are used which are synonymous with salvation: Being born again, saved, redeemed, forgiven, regenerated, etc.

 

[dwight92070]

The OT is full of Saints that were not regenerated yet and therefore not saved yet. They were forgiven by God (best example: David) but there's no indication of spiritual salvation yet.

The NT is full of Saints that were regenerated and therefore saved. They were obviously forgiven because you can't be saved without being forgiven by God.

Now tell me why in your opinion is there salvation in the NT and not in the OT?

The word "salvation" appears in the Old Covenant over 115 times. I'm looking at the list in my Strong's Concordance right now. Sure, some of those refer to being saved from earthly enemies, but many seem to refer to spiritual salvation. How were they saved? The same way we are. By grace through faith in God, or in the New Covenant, faith in Jesus.

 

[synergy]

The word "salvation" appears in the Old Covenant over 115 times. I'm looking at the list in my Strong's Concordance right now. Sure, some of those refer to being saved from earthly enemies, but many seem to refer to spiritual salvation. How were they saved? The same way we are. By grace through faith in God, or in the New Covenant, faith in Jesus.

As I said before, the OT is full of Saints that were not regenerated yet. So how can one be saved without being regenerated?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The OT is full of Saints that were not regenerated yet and therefore not saved yet. They were forgiven by God (best example: David) but there's no indication of spiritual salvation yet.

The NT is full of Saints that were regenerated and therefore saved. They were obviously forgiven because you can't be saved without being forgiven by God.

Now tell me why in your opinion is there salvation in the NT and not in the OT?

David trusted God will forgive him AND regenerate him. The two things go together. Why would a repented sinner seek forgiveness but not a new life? Why would God forgive someone without changing his life?
Let’s read in Psalm 51

7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;​

wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.​

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,​

that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.​

9 Hide Your face from my sins,​

and blot out all my iniquities.​

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,​

and renew a right spirit within me.​

11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,​

and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.​

12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,​

and uphold me with Your willing spirit.​

The offer of salvation has always been as immediate as the call for repentance

O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, that you may be saved. (Jeremiah 4:14)​

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth. For I am God, and there is no other (Isaiah 45:22)​

We cannot honestly suppose that Elijah had been taken to God in a chariot of fire, appeared next to Christ in the glory of the Transfiguration, and yet had not been saved !! What evidence would we need, then? See Elijah seating in a throne next to God?

The Bible makes no difference between a “divine” and a “salvific” forgiveness. Those categories, my brother, are mere inventions of pseudo-scholars who seem to have replaced genital masturbation by theological speculation. They should have never quitted the first. It is much healthier.

 

[synergy]

David trusted God will forgive him AND regenerate him. The two things go together. Why would a repented sinner seek forgiveness but not a new life? Why would God forgive someone without changing his life?
Let’s read in Psalm 51

7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;​

wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.​

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,​

that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.​

9 Hide Your face from my sins,​

and blot out all my iniquities.​

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,​

and renew a right spirit within me.​

11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,​

and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.​

12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,​

and uphold me with Your willing spirit.​

The offer of salvation has always been as immediate as the call for repentance

O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, that you may be saved. (Jeremiah 4:14)​

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth. For I am God, and there is no other (Isaiah 45:22)​

Pentecost had not yet happened in the OT. The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out (at Pentecost) only after the Cross and his Ascension had occurred, not before.

As I said before, the NT is full of Regenerated Saints but there's not even one in the OT. It is utter heresy to say that you are regenerated without the Holy Spirit regenerating you.

We cannot honestly suppose that Elijah had been taken to God in a chariot of fire, appeared next to Christ in the glory of the Transfiguration, and yet had not been saved !! What evidence would we need, then? See Elijah seating in a throne next to God?

OT Saints went to the Paradise portion of Hades. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man illustrated that fact. There was no indication of anyone being regenerated yet. Pentecost had not yet happened at the Transfiguration. The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out (at Pentecost) only after the Cross and his Ascension had occurred.

The Bible makes no difference between a “divine” and a “salvific” forgiveness. Those categories, my brother, are mere inventions of pseudo-scholars who seem to have replaced genital masturbation by theological speculation. They should have never quitted the first. It is much healthier.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out only after the Cross and his Ascension. Your heresy is typical of anti-Bible unitarians (Muslims, JWs, Judaizers, etc...) who mock the Trinity and therefore contribute to their own demise.

I can just envision Muslims at Pentecost mocking it by asking what's the big deal about it. It's just another day at the office for them.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As I said before, the NT is full of Regenerated Saints but there's not even one in the OT. It is utter heresy to say that you are regenerated without the Holy Spirit regenerating you.

Could you please explain what do you mean by "regenerated"?
We may be discussing things with different concepts in mind.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't see the need to do the Old Covenant since it does not mention baptism there.

But that's my point.
For many centuries, God never bothered about asking Israel neither to get baptized nor to believe in the future need of a baptism, as a condition to be forgiven and changed into new people. By the same token, we have no evidence that God asked that from the Chinese or the Mayans. Do we?

All of this speaks loudly of the fact that baptism would be a SYMBOL, like many other symbols, of a spiritual process... not the spiritual process itself.

 

[civic]

Pentecost had not yet happened in the OT. The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out (at Pentecost) only after the Cross and his Ascension had occurred, not before.

As I said before, the NT is full of Regenerated Saints but there's not even one in the OT. It is utter heresy to say that you are regenerated without the Holy Spirit regenerating you.

OT Saints went to the Paradise portion of Hades. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man illustrated that fact. There was no indication of anyone being regenerated yet. Pentecost had not yet happened at the Transfiguration. The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out (at Pentecost) only after the Cross and his Ascension had occurred.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out only after the Cross and his Ascension. Your heresy is typical of anti-Bible unitarians (Muslims, JWs, Judaizers, etc...) who mock the Trinity and therefore contribute to their own demise.

I can just envision Muslims at Pentecost mocking it by asking what's the big deal about it. It's just another day at the office for them.

No one in the new covenant is saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This seems to continue being avoided my some here ( not you ).

There is no salvific forgiveness without being born again by His Spirit.

That’s why I argue against his idea on forgiveness and love.

As we know there is only One Person and One way, One name by which anyone can be saved- Jesus , not Muhammad or any other religious leader. Only one Person who is Lord/ Creator/ Savior/ YHWH must be confessed. Apart from Him one cannot be saved from their sins.

 

[dwight92070]

As I said before, the OT is full of Saints that were not regenerated yet. So how can one be saved without being regenerated?

"Regenerated" comes from two Greek words which are "again" and "born" or born again. So there's no difference between being saved or being regenerated, at least not in the New Covenant. Your question is like asking, "How can one be born again without being born again?" I never suggested that Old Covenant saints were born again, since that does appear to be only a New Covenant experience. But they were saved in the sense that they will be in heaven. Hebrews 11 gives us the names of several persons who will be in heaven.

No one in the new covenant is saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This seems to continue being avoided my some here ( not you ).

There is no salvific forgiveness without being born again by His Spirit.

That’s why I argue against his idea on forgiveness and love.

So was Zacchaeus saved? Jesus said, "Today salvation has come to this house." Was the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair saved? Jesus said, "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven ..."

If you say, oh that was under the Old Covenant (which I reject), then here you have two examples of people being saved under the Old Covenant.
On the other hand, I believe that was the New Covenant and that the Holy Spirit came to be WITH them, but not IN them, which is what Jesus said about His disciples. John 14:16-17 Later, after Jesus was raised, they received the indwelling of the Spirit.

 

[civic]

"Regenerated" comes from two Greek words which are "again" and "born" or born again. So there's no difference between being saved or being regenerated, at least not in the New Covenant. Your question is like asking, "How can one be born again without being born again?" I never suggested that Old Covenant saints were born again, since that does appear to be only a New Covenant experience. But they were saved in the sense that they will be in heaven. Hebrews 11 gives us the names of several persons who will be in heaven.

I’m talking about Acts 2 until now not the OT and transitional period prior to Christs death and resurrection

 

[MTMattie]

The Baptismal Regeneration crowd do not like these verses and therefore seldom, IF EVER, quote them. So we need to look at ALL of them, to see which verses they like to IGNORE.

Romans 1:5-6 " ... to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles ... among you also are the called of Jesus Christ." No Baptism required. (NBR) Notice even the obedience mentioned here is not the work of baptism, but the non-work of faith.

Romans 1:16 " ... the gospel ... is the power of God for salvation to everyone who BELIEVES ..." NBR

Romans 2:4 "... not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to REPENTANCE." NBR

Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION IS THAT WHICH IS OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the letter ..." NBR

Romans 3:22 "even the righteousness of God THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE ..." NBR

Romans 3:24 "being justified as a GIFT BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS." NBR

Romans 3:26 "... so that He would be just and the JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." NBR

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM WORKS OF THE LAW." NBR

Romans 3:30 "since indeed God WHO WILL JUSTIFY THE CIRCUMCISED BY FAITH AND THE UNCIRCUMCISED THROUGH FAITH is One." NBR

Romans 4:3 " ...Abraham BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NBR

Romans 4:5 "But TO THE ONE WHO DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." NBR

Romans 4:6 "just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man TO WHOM GOD CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS." NBR

To be continued -

Thank you Dwight. I have copied this for safe keeping and if I use it I will give full credit to you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

"Regenerated" comes from two Greek words which are "again" and "born" or born again.

Excellent point, my friend.
That's why I am asking @synergy what his definition is.

Both terms refer to living a new kind of life, as if I had been generated / created / born again.
This is salvation*, as you wisely indicate.

If I am prisoner of an undesirable situation (material and spiritual), and I pass to be out of prison, then I have been saved or rescued from that situation. I start living a new life, the life of a free man. It is like if I had been born again, created again, generated again.

Forgiveness, regeneration, salvation has all been always by grace, and by the action of the Spirit of God (or Holy Spirit, which is the term most often, although not exclusively, used in the New Testament).
Pentecost did not represent a change in this process.
The Holy Spirit has been poured to men constantly. How could prophets before Pentecost be "filled with the Spirit" if they had not been regenerated?

I never suggested that Old Covenant saints were born again, since that does appear to be only a New Covenant experience.

One thing is that the metaphor "be born again" does not appear in the Tanakh, and a very different thing is that people before Jesus were not born again. When David says "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me" he is asking to be regenerated, born again.
By the same token, it would be absurd to think that, since Jesus said to Nicodemus that mean must be born again from the water, there was no regeneration before baptism.
Baptism does not cleanse, or regenerates. It is the repentance and change of life that baptism symbolizes... which, by the way, is not a human merit, but God's undeserved gift.

 

[dwight92070]

Excellent point, my friend.

That's why I am asking @synergy what his definition is.

Both terms refer to living a new kind of life, as if I had been generated / created / born again.
This is salvation*, as you wisely indicate.

If I am prisoner of an undesirable situation (material and spiritual), and I pass to be out of prison, then I have been saved or rescued from that situation. I start living a new life, the life of a free man. It is like if I had been born again, created again, generated again.

Forgiveness, regeneration, salvation has all been always by grace, and by the action of the Spirit of God (or Holy Spirit, which is the term most often, although not exclusively, used in the New Testament).
Pentecost did not represent a change in this process.
The Holy Spirit has been poured to men constantly. How could prophets before Pentecost be "filled with the Spirit" if they had not been regenerated?


One thing is that the metaphor "be born again" does not appear in the Tanakh, and a very different thing is that people before Jesus were not born again. When David says "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me" he is asking to be regenerated, born again.
By the same token, it would be absurd to think that, since Jesus said to Nicodemus that mean must be born again from the water, there was no regeneration before baptism.
Baptism does not cleanse, or regenerates. It is the repentance and change of life that baptism symbolizes... which, by the way, is not a human merit, but God's undeserved gift.

Good points. However, it has always been my understanding that the only ones in the Old Covenant, who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them were prophets, priests and kings. (There may have been some exceptions, such as when the Lord took some of the Spirit that was on Moses and gave Him to the seventy, to relieve Moses of such a great burden.) David was the 2nd King of Israel. He was anointed by the Holy Spirit years before he was actually able to sit on the throne. When he asked God to create in him a clean heart, etc., he was repenting of his sin with Bathsheba. At that time he also implored God that He would not take His Holy Spirit from him. Apparently God answered that prayer, allowing him to keep his anointing. So I don't think I would call that being born again.

You mentioned Nicodemus. Jesus told him that unless one is born again, he cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God. But was Jesus withholding the "truth" that if Nicodemus wanted this experience, he would have to wait until after Jesus was raised from the dead? Or was Jesus telling Nicodemus that he could receive that experience right then? I tend to believe the latter, but with a caveat. Maybe Nicodemus could have been born again right then, but instead of receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, he would receive the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, again as Jesus told His disciples - He (the Holy Spirit) is with you but will be in you. So that later, after Jesus rose from the dead, he and all Jesus' disciples could receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. John 20:22

 

[Doug Brents]

Good points. However, it has always been my understanding that the only ones in the Old Covenant, who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them were prophets, priests and kings.

There were NONE in the OT how had the indwelling of the Spirit, because the indwelling had not been given before Jesus was glorified (John 7:39). The OT saints had the empowerment of the Spirit, but they did not have Him living within their hearts.

(There may have been some exceptions, such as when the Lord took some of the Spirit that was on Moses and gave Him to the seventy, to relieve Moses of such a great burden.)

The Spirit was ON, or WITH Moses, but He was not within him.

David was the 2nd King of Israel. He was anointed by the Holy Spirit years before he was actually able to sit on the throne. When he asked God to create in him a clean heart, etc., he was repenting of his sin with Bathsheba.

Yes, the OT saints were regenerated through the retroactive power of Jesus' blood that God foreordained to cleanse all sin for all time.

At that time he also implored God that He would not take His Holy Spirit from him. Apparently God answered that prayer, allowing him to keep his anointing. So I don't think I would call that being born again.

But the empowering Spirit of God could (and still can) come and go from people at the Spirit's discretion. He came upon and then left King Saul. He came upon and then left and then again came upon Samson, just for a couple of examples.

You mentioned Nicodemus. Jesus told him that unless one is born again, he cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God. But was Jesus withholding the "truth" that if Nicodemus wanted this experience, he would have to wait until after Jesus was raised from the dead? Or was Jesus telling Nicodemus that he could receive that experience right then? I tend to believe the latter, but with a caveat. Maybe Nicodemus could have been born again right then, but instead of receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, he would receive the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, again as Jesus told His disciples - He (the Holy Spirit) is with you but will be in you. So that later, after Jesus rose from the dead, he and all Jesus' disciples could receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. John 20:22

What you are saying here makes sense, and I am coming to a new (for me) thought here, so bear with me as I develop this thought. Looking at what you are saying, it appears that one of the lessons we learn from Cornelius is that a person who was saved under the Old Covenant and lived through the transition into the New Covenant needed to hear about and exhibit faith in Jesus to remain saved under the New Covenant. I think Cornelius was saved under the Old Covenant (he lived according to the Law), but God sent Peter to him to bring him into knowledge of the New Covenant, and Jesus' part in removing our sins.

So you may be right that Nicodemus could have been born again right there (under the OT), but then he would need salvation in Christ ((continued) repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism) in order to be saved under the NT, just as Cornelius apparently did.

 

[dwight92070]

Continued from #1:

Romans 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered." BNR (Baptism Not Required)
Romans 4:8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account." BNR
(Paul says that both of these verses speak of the blessing on the man whom God credits righteousness apart from works, such as baptism. (See 4:6)

Romans 4:11"and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be THE FATHER OF ALL WHO BELIEVE WITHOUT BEING CIRCUMCISED, that RIGHTEOUSNESS MIGHT BE CREDITED TO THEM,"
(That's US GENTILE BELIEVERS - WE BELIEVE WITHOUT BEING CIRCUMCISED - OR BAPTIZED) BNR

Romans 4:12 "and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but WHO ALSO FOLLOW IN THE STEPS OF THE FAITH OF OUR FATHER ABRAHAM WHICH HE HAD WHILE UNCIRCUMCISED.
(That's JEWISH BELIEVERS - THEY HAD THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM EVEN BEFORE THEY WERE CIRCUMCISED - OR BAPTIZED) BNR

Romans 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants (seed) that he would be heir of the world (which obviously includes salvation) was not through the Law (or baptism), BUT THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH." BNR

Romans 4:14 "For IF THOSE WHO ARE OF THE LAW (OR BAPTISM) ARE HEIRS, FAITH IS MADE VOID AND THE PROMISE IS NULLIFIED; BNR

Romans 4:16 "FOR THIS REASON IT IS BY FAITH (NOT BAPTISM), IN ORDER THAT IT MAY BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH GRACE, SO THAT THE PROMISE WILL BE GUARANTEED TO ALL THE DESCENDANTS (SEED), NOT ONLY TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE LAW, BUT ALSO TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, WHO IS THE FATHER OF US ALL." BNR

Romans 4:22 "THEREFORE IT (HIS FAITH, NOT BAPTISM) WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. BNR
Romans 4:23-24 "NOW NOT FOR HIS SAKE ONLY WAS IT WRITTEN THAT IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM, BUT FOR OUR SAKE ALSO, TO WHOM IT WILL BE CREDITED, AS THOSE WHO (GET BAPTIZED? NO!) BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD, ..." BNR

Romans 5:1 "THEREFORE HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." BNR
Romans 5:2 "through whom also we have obtained OUR INTRODUCTION BY FAITH (NOT BY BAPTISM) INTO THIS GRACE IN WHICH WE STAND;" BNR

To be continued:

IMPORTANT NOTE: I do NOT list these verses to, in any way, discourage water baptism. AFTER we believe, we should ALL obey Jesus and be water baptized as He commanded. These are listed to show us clearly that water baptism is NOT REQUIRED IN ORDER TO BE SAVED or we could say "water baptism will NOT save us".