All Claims of The Son's Deity

[mikesw]

• It's time to PULL the curtain back
  and reveal this deceptive hoax.
• It's time for the Satanic Wizard who
  has deceived so many to be exposed.
• The Satanic roots of Babylon inspired
  the Trinitarian falsehood of WHO God is.
• This is an undeniable realization that has been
  perpetrated upon false Trinitarian Christianity.
• It was planned and devised by the workers of Satan;
  who orchestrated this insane evil concept among the
  spiritually blind religious leaders who came up with the
  trinity.

View attachment 2523

What infamy you draw upon yourself if you are improperly associating the Triune God with false gods. In reality there is nothing suggesting that Jesus saw himself as Horus or that any Christians sought out Egyptian mythology as their way of understanding Christ. This puts Peterlag in a very precarious situation.

 

[Lions Mane]

I'm not a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church just want to learn more about them.

There is only one doctrine that is unique to the Seventh-day Adventist church—the heavenly sanctuary. In order to understand Adventist theology one needs to delve into this topic. Other churches hold similar beliefs regarding the Sabbath, the state of the dead (asleep until the resurrection) and the second coming of Christ; however, none of them believe in the heavenly sanctuary in the same way. In fact anyone who observes Sunday could be said to be a Sabbath keeper, even though Adventists would not accept that Sunday is the day sanctified by God. There are very few denominations which state in their creeds or beliefs that they reject the Ten Commandments. Adventist hold very traditional beliefs, they endorse the Trinity and strictly adhere to the Bible which they believe is the inspired Word of God. They do not accept any writings above the Scriptures and all their fundamental beliefs are founded on the Bible. However, to be a true Seventh-day Adventist is more than accepting a set of doctrines, it is about adopting a certain way of life with the expectation that Christ is going to return soon.

The heavenly sanctuary is a fascinating study because it throws light on the gospel and helps us to better understand the work of Christ as our Priest in heaven. For many Christians the heavenly sanctuary is a mystery or something they have never previously considered. What is the purpose of the heavenly temple and how can we be sure it exists? This book will look at the issue of whether there is a real temple in heaven and what its purpose is. To do that, we will look primarily at the Book of Hebrews.

As for Ellen G. White

Ellen G. White - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[amazing grace]

Not if it is on a need to know basis.

If, as claimed, our salvation depends on our belief in the Trinity, which would include the divinity of Jesus - wouldn't that be a need to know basis?

 

[FreeInChrist]

I'd be very careful w/ Doug Batchelor's teachings, given he's a Seventh Day Adventist. They believe Ellen G. White was a last day's prophetess of God who taught heretical doctrines. They're very much legalistic as well. They believe keeping the sabbath marks God's true children, Roman Catholicism seeks to change God's times & laws, & that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast.

Look into Ellen G. Whites' teachings on: The Great Disappointment, & The Investigative Judgment.

Hey Victoria, Good evening....

I know all about SDA Doug Batchelor's teachings.

I also know more then most members here of what Ellen White wrote and her life due to a few debates on other foumes
with SDA members.

But in truth the scriptures he quoted and explained should have had people jumping up and applauding their learning something
they did not know... but instead they had frowns and scowls like the man was daft.

It is also interesting that Ellen and Joseph Smith were near contemporaries. He was 1 805 -1844 and she was 1827- 1915

And it is said some of her writings came from his...

In fact there are several articles if you check the drop down list here that talk of such.... too many to copy

Did Ellen White copy Joseph Smiths Writings at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

this one especially is interesting.... https://www.nonegw.org/plagiarism.htmls one especially is interesting....

Ellen White's Plagiarism - Seventh-day Adventist Church​

9 Joseph Smith and Ellen White: Kindred Prophets 10 The Mystery of Enoch 11 Steps to Christ copied from others 12 Patriarchs and Prophets copied from Edersheim 13 Prophets and Kings copied from March and others 14 Desire of Ages copied from William Hanna's Life of Christ 15 Desire of Ages

I do know they are very worried about "Sunday Law" coming into being... and you are right. For some reason if you do not worship and rest on Saturday I think most of the think you will go to hell.

I never get a straight answer if the Sabbath is so important then why are they not observing Friday 6PM to Saturday 6PM.

Yes my sister... it is an interesting study... So is Joseph Smith.

Thanks for the warning

 

[amazing grace]

“If Jesus is not God, then there is no Christianity, and we who worship Him are nothing more than idolaters. Conversely, if He is God, those who say He was merely a good man, or even the best of men, are blasphemers. More serious still, if He is not God, then He is a blasphemer in the fullest sense of the word. If He is not God, He is not even good.” J. Oswald Sanders

IF Jesus is God, we have no Son God, no Messiah, no salvation.

Jesus said "Why call me good? No one is good except God alone."

Why would Jesus be a blasphemer in the fullest sense of the word?

“If Jesus Christ is not true God, how could he help us? If he is not true man, how could he help us?” — Dietrich Bonhoeffer

“Either Jesus is the Son of God ; or a madman or worse. But His being just a great teacher? He’s not left that open to us.” C.S. Lewis

“The deity of Christ is the key doctrine of the scriptures. Reject it, and the Bible becomes a jumble of words without any unifying theme. Accept it, and the Bible becomes an intelligible and ordered revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ.” J. Oswald Sanders

“Only by being both deity and humanity could Jesus Christ bridge the gap between where God is.” — David Jeremiah

WHY - to each of the above?

 

[mikesw]

IF Jesus is God, we have no Son God, no Messiah, no salvation.

That sounds scary for you in the way you think Jesus stops existing

Jesus said "Why call me good? No one is good except God alone."

You follow the common error of questions. You assume an answer when none is explicit. Jesus does not deny being God here. But to the unitarian, any chance of deny Christ must be taken.

Why would Jesus be a blasphemer in the fullest sense of the word?

The obvious point is that the pharisees claim blasphemy for something that normally would be unless the person speaking is of the Triune God. This is basic reading comprehension.

WHY - to each of the above?

 

[Victoria]

I'm not a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church just want to learn more about them.

The heavenly sanctuary is a fascinating study because it throws light on the gospel and helps us to better understand the work of Christ as our Priest in heaven. For many Christians the heavenly sanctuary is a mystery or something they have never previously considered. What is the purpose of the heavenly temple and how can we be sure it exists? This book will look at the issue of whether there is a real temple in heaven and what its purpose is. To do that, we will look primarily at the Book of Hebrews.

Greetings Lions Mane,

Yes, the heavenly sanctuary is in reference to Jesus' atonement for our sins as not being sufficient. We must now do our part. This heretical teaching is known as The Investigative Judgment. Meanwhile, Jesus is temporarily atoning for our sins in the Holy of Holies "aka" the Heavenly Sanctuary. At one point, Jesus will stop & we'll then be left w/out a mediator, saith this prophetess of God. But is this sound doctrine?

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear
the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Hebrews 9:28)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Hebrews 10:10-12)


Ellen G. White taught the heresy that God will transfer all of our sins unto Satan, making Satan the bearer
of humanity's sins in the end Not according to Hebrews 9:28; 10:10-12!

They also believe the heretical teachings of soul sleep, & annihilation.

Is soul sleep sound doctrine? Paul says:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:8)


Then there's annihilation. Is this sound doctrine?

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mark 9:44; 46; 48)

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:11)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:10)

 

[Lions Mane]

Greetings Lions Mane,

Yes, the heavenly sanctuary is in reference to Jesus' atonement for our sins as not being sufficient. We must now do our part. This heretical teaching is known as The Investigative Judgment. Meanwhile, Jesus is temporarily atoning for our sins in the Holy of Holies "aka" the Heavenly Sanctuary. At one point, Jesus will stop & we'll then be left w/out a mediator, saith this prophetess of God. But is this sound doctrine?

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(Hebrews 10:12)


Ellen G. White taught the heresy that God will transfer all of our sins unto Satan, making Satan the bearer
of humanity's sins in the end Not according to Hebrews 10:12!

They also believe the heretical teachings of soul sleep, & annihilation.

Is soul sleep sound doctrine? Paul says:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:8)


Then there's annihilation. Is this sound doctrine?

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mark 9:44; 46; 48)

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:11)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:10)

That's interesting as I've just started studying Adventists and I should learn a lot. Thanks for the info. The soul sleep, & annihilation sounds interesting. I've never even heard of annihilation.

 

[Victoria]

That's interesting as I've just started studying Adventists and I should learn a lot. Thanks for the info. The soul sleep, & annihilation sounds interesting. I've never even heard of annihilation.

I once joined an off-shoot of Seventh Day Adventists, so I've learned quite a bit about SDA's. Some major red flags to always be on the look-out for when studying any religious sect... if they make any of the following claims (run!!!):

1) Jesus is not God.
2) We received new revelation from God.
3) We are God's only true church in these last days.
4) Salvation cannot be found in any other apart from our group.

Although SDA's have since changed their stance on the Godhead, it still proves Ellen G. White was a false prophet.
They used to teach that Jesus was Michael the archangel.

 

[amazing grace]

That sounds scary for you in the way you think Jesus stops existing

I have know idea what you are talking about - refresh my memory.
But it is scary for everyone if we have no Son of God, i.e. Messiah.

You follow the common error of questions. You assume an answer when none is explicit. Jesus does not deny being God here. But to the unitarian, any chance of deny Christ must be taken.

I'm just asking questions in accordance to what's been said . . . of course, as usual, never any answers. It seems no one wants to defend their doctrine.
"Why call me good? No one is good except God alone." . . . He is saying God alone is good which indicates he does not believe he is God.

The obvious point is that the pharisees claim blasphemy for something that normally would be unless the person speaking is of the Triune God. This is basic reading comprehension.

An accusation does not mean guilt so again - Why would Jesus be a blasphemer in the fullest sense of the word?
Yeah, it takes basic reading comprehension - Jesus never said he was God.

 

[Lions Mane]

I once joined an off-shoot of Seventh Day Adventists, so I've learned quite a bit about SDA's. Some major red flags to always be on the look-out for when studying any religious sect... if they make any of the following claims (run!!!):

1) Jesus is not God.
2) We received new revelation from God.
3) We are God's only true church in these last days.
4) Salvation cannot be found in any other apart from our group.

Although SDA's have since changed their stance on the Godhead, it still proves Ellen G. White was a false prophet.
They used to teach that Jesus was Michael the archangel.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep it in mind during my study.

 

[mikesw]

I have know idea what you are talking about - refresh my memory.
But it is scary for everyone if we have no Son of God, i.e. Messiah.

You have said if Jesus is God then he no longer is the Messiah. In this fashion, you have just lost having a Messiah. That is really sad to hear.

I'm just asking questions in accordance to what's been said . . . of course, as usual, never any answers. It seems no one wants to defend their doctrine.
"Why call me good? No one is good except God alone." . . . He is saying God alone is good which indicates he does not believe he is God.

That is one the mildly possible interpretations. But note that Jesus does not deny his divinity here. He just teaches a principle. That does not make the man's address to Jesus wrong. You just choose the option to deny who Christ Jesus is.

An accusation does not mean guilt so again - Why would Jesus be a blasphemer in the fullest sense of the word?
Yeah, it takes basic reading comprehension - Jesus never said he was God.

Jesus can speak the truth of his divinity and do actions consistent with that. Such is what we find in the NT. Pharisees and others claim this as blasphemy. It is that simple

 

[mikesw]

Again we have a case of Lord in the NT referring to Yahweh 1 Corinthians 10:22 (ESV)
22Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

This recalls Deut 32:21. There are too many passages like this to allow unitarian denial to stand. There are too many times God says he will do something and then Jesus does it, as shown in direct quotes to the OT that say Yahweh will do it. The unitarians have to claim that the writers of the NT are getting into idolatry of making Jesus out to be God -- if he were not really God.

 

[Runningman]

Right... one God with three distinct persons.

View attachment 2520

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one God who exists in three co-equal and co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This means there is only one divine essence, but within that single Godhead, there are three distinct persons, not three separate gods.

Got any verses to go along with that?

 

[Runningman]

The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was by Tertullian, who was born around AD 150-160, explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas.

Praxeas, if you do not know...Praxeas was a Christian theologian from Asia Minor in the late 2nd to early 3rd century, known for his belief in the unity of the Godhead and opposition to the division of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Believed in the three but as one in the Godhead.

YOU WANT EARLIER?

Polycarp ... a diciple of the apostle John.... So one would think he got some learning from one who was right there with Jesus

Polycarp, ( 69 - 155 AD) in his last prayer before martyrdom, acknowledged a tri-personal God, referring to the Father, His beloved Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, indicating an early understanding of the Trinity. His teachings reflect a belief in the distinct persons of the Godhead while affirming their unity as one God.

Ignatius of Antioch... you should bookmark this so you can reference it a lot.

Ignatius of Antioch is one of the earliest Church Fathers to reference the concept of the Trinity, although he did not use the term "Trinity" itself. He emphasized the distinct roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his writings, indicating an early understanding of their relationship within the Godhead.

​

Ignatius of Antioch's Understanding of the Trinity​

Early Context​

Ignatius of Antioch, an early Church Father who lived around 35-107 AD, is one of the first known leaders to reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his writings. However, the term "Trinity" was not yet in use during his time. His thoughts on the Godhead reflect a developing understanding of the relationship between these three persons.

Key Beliefs​

• Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Ignatius emphasized the distinct roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He referred to God primarily as the Father of Jesus Christ, indicating a close relationship between them.
• Divine Sonship: He acknowledged Jesus as "God" multiple times, affirming His divine nature and pre-existence. Ignatius stated that Jesus was "born of Mary" and conceived by the Holy Spirit, highlighting both His humanity and divinity.
• Unity and Distinction: While Ignatius recognized the distinct roles of each person in the Godhead, he did not articulate a systematic theology of the Trinity as later defined. His writings suggest a belief in their unity in purpose and essence, though he focused more on practical implications for faith and community.

Notable Quotes​

• Ignatius described Christians as "stones of the Father’s temple," indicating a communal aspect of faith that involves the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working together in believers' lives.
• He often used analogies to express the relationship among the three, such as comparing the Church to a temple built by the Father, with Christ as the cornerstone and the Holy Spirit as the guiding force.

Conclusion​

Ignatius of Antioch laid foundational thoughts about the Trinity, emphasizing the importance of each person in the Godhead while contributing to the evolving understanding of this doctrine in early Christianity. His writings reflect a blend of reverence for the divine and practical guidance for the Christian community.

AND LET US NOT LEAVE OUT THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH

Theophilus of Antioch is another early Church Father who referenced the Trinity, using the term in his work "Ad Autolycum." Both Ignatius and Theophilus contributed to the early understanding of the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Theophilus of Antioch​

• Time Period: 169–181 AD
• Key Contributions: Theophilus is noted for being the first to use the actual word "Trinity" (Greek: Trias) in his work "Ad Autolycum." He referred to God, His Word, and His Wisdom, linking them to the creation narrative in Genesis.

Here is a small chart on the 3.

Ignatius of Antioch	Early 2nd century	Mentioned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in letters
Theophilus of Antioch	169–181 AD	First to use the term "Trinity" in his writings
Polycarp of Smyrna	70-155/160 AD	Prayed to the Father through Jesus, indicating a triadic view

[th]
Church Father

[/th][th]
Time Period

[/th][th]
Key Contributions

[/th]​

SO IT WAS NOT AS LATE AS MANY THINK.... THE IDEA OF THE tRINITY AND IT WAS NOT AN INVENTION OF THE CHURCH LATER ON.

Seems as though you didn't read any of their writings. They didn't define a trinity nor did they believe what orthodox trinitarians states. They were heretics, even by your standards, which aren't very high apparently.

Ignatius of Antioch was a subordinationist and a modalist:

“There is one God, who manifested himself through Jesus Christ his Son” — (Magnesians 8:2)
“Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the ages, and in the end appeared to us” — (Magnesians 6:1)

Theophilus of Antioch didn't believe the trinity is three persons. He was more along the lines of bintiarianism:

“God, having his Word internal within his own bowels, begat him, emitting him along with his own Wisdom before all things.” — (To Autolycus 2.10)

Polycarp of Smyrna was also a subordinationist and a binitarian.

The cult of trinitarianism didn't arise until the late 4th century. They didn't even believe the Holy Spirit is a third person in a trinity until around that time.

 

[amazing grace]

You have said if Jesus is God then he no longer is the Messiah. In this fashion, you have just lost having a Messiah. That is really sad to hear.

No, that's not what I said. I said if Jesus was God then we have no Messish because the Messiah is the Son of God.

That is one the mildly possible interpretations. But note that Jesus does not deny his divinity here. He just teaches a principle. That does not make the man's address to Jesus wrong. You just choose the option to deny who Christ Jesus is.

Someone called Jesus - Good Teacher. Jesus responded: Why call ME good? . . . Then admits that God alone is good, he is basically denying that he is God.

Jesus can speak the truth of his divinity and do actions consistent with that. Such is what we find in the NT. Pharisees and others claim this as blasphemy. It is that simple

Yeah, the Pharisees and religious leaders ACCUSED Jesus of making himself out to be God, i.e. equal to God yet all he ever admitted to was being the Son of God, which meant he was the Christ. Simply put they did not believe him. They believed him to be claiming to be something he wasn't.

 

[Victoria]

Got any verses to go along with that?

 

[mikesw]

Seems as though you didn't read any of their writings. They didn't define a trinity nor did they believe what orthodox trinitarians states. They were heretics, even by your standards, which aren't very high apparently.

They were not deny the Triune God anywhere that I have seen

Ignatius of Antioch was a subordinationist and a modalist:

“There is one God, who manifested himself through Jesus Christ his Son” — (Magnesians 8:2)
“Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the ages, and in the end appeared to us” — (Magnesians 6:1)

Indeed it is hard to get away from the pre-existence of the one who became seen as Jesus. Even the unitarian shows the pre-existence.

Theophilus of Antioch didn't believe the trinity is three persons. He was more along the lines of bintiarianism:

“God, having his Word internal within his own bowels, begat him, emitting him along with his own Wisdom before all things.” — (To Autolycus 2.10)

Accept binitarianism rather than rejecting the divinity of Christ. That will get you closer to reality.

Polycarp of Smyrna was also a subordinationist and a binitarian.

The cult of trinitarianism didn't arise until the late 4th century. They didn't even believe the Holy Spirit is a third person in a trinity until around that time.

Just because they had not sorted out the essence of God fully does not have any relevance for the unitarian heresy. Again you recognize and quote the divinity of Jesus with the mention of binitarian belief. You finally are sharing importance doctrine about the Godhead, even if just baby steps.

 

[mikesw]

No, that's not what I said. I said if Jesus was God then we have no Messish because the Messiah is the Son of God.

He who denies the Son is God denies the Father. Since Jesus is God, you share he is not the Messiah. Basic logic.

Someone called Jesus - Good Teacher. Jesus responded: Why call ME good? . . . Then admits that God alone is good, he is basically denying that he is God.

You will hold to bad exegesis no matter what.

Yeah, the Pharisees and religious leaders ACCUSED Jesus of making himself out to be God, i.e. equal to God yet all he ever admitted to was being the Son of God, which meant he was the Christ. Simply put they did not believe him. They believed him to be claiming to be something he wasn't.

Son of his Father and having the same qualities of divinity as his Father. Cannot avoid recognizing that. Unitarians always return to confessing the divinity of Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

Again we have a case of Lord in the NT referring to Yahweh 1 Corinthians 10:22 (ESV)
22Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

This recalls Deut 32:21. There are too many passages like this to allow unitarian denial to stand. There are too many times God says he will do something and then Jesus does it, as shown in direct quotes to the OT that say Yahweh will do it. The unitarians have to claim that the writers of the NT are getting into idolatry of making Jesus out to be God -- if he were not really God.

It is the Trinitarian that makes Jesus out to be God so you better hope he is . . .