All Claims of The Son's Deity

[amazing grace]

Pride wreaks of the flesh, amazing grace. God doesn't feel the need to boast to His creation about who He is, which is why He spoke in parables. Only those who seek the truth will know who He truly is.

I have no idea what your first sentence means or implies.
Correct, God does not need to boast to his creation about who he is - so why hide the fact that he came to earth as a man to the point where he stated he was not a man - Num. 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Job 9:32; 1 Sam. 15:29?
Jesus spoke in parables and the words he spoke were given to him by God - And I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I command him - and whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. (Deut. 18:18b,19)

This very topic someone once brought up left me curious early on in my faith. It honestly is a good point, which led to me looking into it further. I'll share in two separate posts, given I'm unable to share too long of a post... stay tuned...

This response sounds like a purely human understanding of who God is. Would you therefore be suggesting that Jesus Christ was a created being?

Well, I am a human so I would tend to lean that way in my understanding!!! I don't believe God meant for us to have a difficult time in knowing him-----some things are deeper than others but all in all He wants us to know him.

Yes, I believe Jesus was a human being created in the womb of Mary. He was, like all mankind, made a little lower than the angels. (Ps. 8:4-6; Heb. 2:7-9)

 

[amazing grace]

Bible lexicon define "revealed" in Greek "גּלה gâlâh" as - show oneself, uncover etc.
Jesus was the "spoken word" at that time and have the power to be seen, like what Jacob seen face to face.
If you believe what Jesus said in John 5:37, who do you say Jacob saw? Yet life spared?

Gen 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared.”

In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought his favor. [Hosea 12:3,4a] When God sent angels to act in his stead (one sent: agent) - scripture speaks as if the angel is 'God' (the sender - principle) himself.

Jewish Principle of Agency: The Jewish Encyclopedia online version explains the shaliah this way: “The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as shelua or shelia (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheli'ut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Kid. 41b)” (emphasis mine)

1Sa 3:21 And R1the LORDH3068 appearedH7200 againH3254 at ShilohH7887, R2becauseH3588 the LORDH3068 revealedH1540 Himself to SamuelH8050 at ShilohH7887 by the wordH1697 of the LORDH3068.

H1540
גּלה gâlâh
BDB Definition:
1) to uncover, remove
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to uncover
1a2) to remove, depart
1a3) to go into exile
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) (reflexive)
1b1a) to uncover oneself
1b1b) to discover or show oneself

The LORD, Yahweh, revealed Himself to Samuel “by the word of the LORD,” so the LORD, Yahweh revealed Himself by speaking His word. The words we speak reveal who we are, and God’s words reveal who He is.

 

[amazing grace]

What is a theophany? What is a Christophany?​

A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:


1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:25; and 12:5.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23).

via GotQuestions.org

I agree there are some instances where God actually appeared to men, a theophany but we have to be careful as in the case of Jacob wrestling with 'a man' and it says he saw 'God face to face' (which keeps popping up) ---- Scripture cannot contradict other scripture, therefore when another scripture says "He strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor; He met God at Bethel, and there God spoke with is------------- Hosea 12:4 Then the 'man' he wrestled with was an angel and in saying he saw 'God face to face' - he saw an angel, God's agent, the one sent by God, acting as His representative and in His name. I disagree that God taking on human form foreshadows the incarnation. The appearances of God in human form in the Old Testament (theophanies) were temporary. God did not take on the form of a man and live for 33 years as a man . . .The appearances of God in human form in the Old Testament (theophanies) were temporary.

As for preexistent Christophany ----- I disagree. I believe the angel of the LORD to be just what scripture says - the angel of the LORD.

Thanks for the info!

 

[amazing grace]

Reading John 8:17 - In your Law it is written that the testimony of TWO people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.

Since, according to Trinitarian doctrine, Jesus is God and the Father is God - the witness of TWO people is true - how is that not TWO Gods?

 

[Runningman]

The text speaks of;
1. neither heard His voice at anytime - you missed to interpret "anytime,"
2. nor seen His form - even in the absence of the word "anytime" it is understood that all mankind never seen the form of the Father. And I believe you also know it.

The two concept is recorded in just one verse;
1. Do the anytime is not anytime?
2. And the no mention of "anytime" means anytime?

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.


Do you mean that Jesus is wrong when He said John 5:37?

Ah, there's the mistake you are making. Jesus is speaking to those particular people, not everyone in general. He said "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." He isn't talking about all people in the past or future, but only those who were present. Others have heard the Fathers voice, plenty of examples of that.

 

[Peterlag]

There's no Trinity...​

The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

The folks back then weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves. The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including the loss of your job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, and even burning at the stake.

But now I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

Here's an example...

Concerning 1 John 5:7-8 where it has the words "In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are words that are not found in any Greek Manuscript before the 15th or 16th century and in no ancient Version. - E. W. Bullinger., A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament: (London: Samuel Bagster & Sons, 1975), p. 11 of Appendix A.

Trinitarians...
You are changing the Scriptures. Or 2 Peter 2:21 says the Bible is not to be privately interpreted. Or why are you denying the words of the Apostles?

 

[mikesw]

There's no Trinity...​

The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

The folks back then weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves. The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including the loss of your job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, and even burning at the stake.

But now I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

Here's an example...

Concerning 1 John 5:7-8 where it has the words "In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are words that are not found in any Greek Manuscript before the 15th or 16th century and in no ancient Version. - E. W. Bullinger., A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament: (London: Samuel Bagster & Sons, 1975), p. 11 of Appendix A.

Trinitarians...
You are changing the Scriptures. Or 2 Peter 2:21 says the Bible is not to be privately interpreted. Or why are you denying the words of the Apostles?

Wow. unitarians come out with an outlandish, novel interpretation of scripture while rejecting the divinity of Christ. Then they share their private interpretation violating 2 Peter 2:21. That is quite ironic.

 

[Victoria]

Thanks for the info!

 

[mikesw]

I have no idea what your first sentence means or implies.
Correct, God does not need to boast to his creation about who he is - so why hide the fact that he came to earth as a man to the point where he stated he was not a man - Num. 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Job 9:32; 1 Sam. 15:29?
Jesus spoke in parables and the words he spoke were given to him by God - And I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I command him - and whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. (Deut. 18:18b,19)

Well, I am a human so I would tend to lean that way in my understanding!!! I don't believe God meant for us to have a difficult time in knowing him-----some things are deeper than others but all in all He wants us to know him.

Yes, I believe Jesus was a human being created in the womb of Mary. He was, like all mankind, made a little lower than the angels. (Ps. 8:4-6; Heb. 2:7-9)

Funny how that Psalm mentions that God visits man. Heb 2:1-8 then shows this being applied to Jesus, as the way God visits humanity. The focus in Heb 2 is about all things being subject to Christ Jesus, in his divine visit, not about all humanity.
Verse 9 notes that Christ was brought low or humbled for a little while as lower the angels. That means he was above angels before. It certainly is an interesting series to see how unitarians diminish Jesus and exalt humanity above him.

 

[Capbook]

In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought his favor. [Hosea 12:3,4a] When God sent angels to act in his stead (one sent: agent) - scripture speaks as if the angel is 'God' (the sender - principle) himself.

Jewish Principle of Agency: The Jewish Encyclopedia online version explains the shaliah this way: “The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as shelua or shelia (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheli'ut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Kid. 41b)” (emphasis mine)

Nothing in the verse that mention "shaliah," the text specifically record "he contended with God" and an angel cannot be called God. In Genesis account, Jacob was named "Israel" which means "God prevails" not angel prevails.
May you can answer the question now, who the God Jacob see face to face, but still lived?

H3478
ישׂראל yiśrâ'êl
BDB Definition:
Israel = “God prevails”
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob

The LORD, Yahweh, revealed Himself to Samuel “by the word of the LORD,” so the LORD, Yahweh revealed Himself by speaking His word. The words we speak reveal who we are, and God’s words reveal who He is.

Bible lexicon define "revealed" as "to show oneself," just like what Jacob seen God face to face, but did not die.
Just like in 1 Samuel account the "Word" Jesus pre-incarnate had the power to reveal Himself to be seen by man.

 

[Peterlag]

When I speak about the Jewish folks not seeing a trinity...

I am referring to Israel in the Old Testament. Not Jews walking around in the New Testament. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God.

Jesus himself tied the greatest commandment in the Law together with there being only one God when an expert in Old Testament law asked him which of the commandments was the most important. Jesus said to him “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God….” (Mark 12:29-30).

 

[Capbook]

Ah, there's the mistake you are making. Jesus is speaking to those particular people, not everyone in general. He said "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." He isn't talking about all people in the past or future, but only those who were present. Others have heard the Fathers voice, plenty of examples of that.

In this single verse, this is your interpretation;
1. Not hearing the Father voice at anytime - just refer to the audience at that time, though "anytime," means not that time.
2. The "nor seen His form" - it's been understood refer to all mankind.
3. Notice the word "nor" in Greek "οὔτε oute" Bible lexicon one definition as - used singly in the sense of.
4. That would mean that "anytime" used singly for "voice and form" means to all mankind not just to the audience that time.

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

G3777 (Mounce)
οὔτε oute
used singly in the sense of

 

[amazing grace]

Funny how that Psalm mentions that God visits man. Heb 2:1-8 then shows this being applied to Jesus, as the way God visits humanity. The focus in Heb 2 is about all things being subject to Christ Jesus, in his divine visit, not about all humanity.
Verse 9 notes that Christ was brought low or humbled for a little while as lower the angels. That means he was above angels before. It certainly is an interesting series to see how unitarians diminish Jesus and exalt humanity above him.

The Psalmist is looking at the works of God's hands and in comparison to God's creation he questions: what is man that you are mindful of him and the son of man that you care for him? or 'visit' him dependent upon Bible version. Yes, God does visit humanity, in the sense of caring for his creation, at times intervening in certain circumstances. He blesses us - He gives grace when needed, he gives wisdom and understanding to those who ask - he loves us and is always there for us.

The verses that are relative and quoted in Hebrews are Psalm 8:5,6 make Jesus inclusive with humanity.
Yes, Jesus being exalted at the right hand of God now places him above the angels. Almighty God was NEVER, at any point, a little lower than the angels . . . lower that his creation.

 

[Peterlag]

In this single verse, this is your interpretation;
1. Not hearing the Father voice at anytime - just refer to the audience at that time, though "anytime," means not that time.
2. The "nor seen His form" - it's been understood refer to all mankind.
3. Notice the word "nor" in Greek "οὔτε oute" Bible lexicon one definition as - used singly in the sense of.
4. That would mean that "anytime" used singly for "voice and form" means to all mankind not just to the audience that time.

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

G3777 (Mounce)
οὔτε oute
used singly in the sense of

I told you the same thing @Runningman just told you.

 

[mikesw]

The Psalmist is looking at the works of God's hands and in comparison to God's creation he questions: what is man that you are mindful of him and the son of man that you care for him? or 'visit' him dependent upon Bible version. Yes, God does visit humanity, in the sense of caring for his creation, at times intervening in certain circumstances. He blesses us - He gives grace when needed, he gives wisdom and understanding to those who ask - he loves us and is always there for us.

The verses that are relative and quoted in Hebrews are Psalm 8:5,6 make Jesus inclusive with humanity.
Yes, Jesus being exalted at the right hand of God now places him above the angels. Almighty God was NEVER, at any point, a little lower than the angels . . . lower that his creation.

I see your confusion. You first miss any logic for sharing Psalm 8:5-6. You essentially strip any significance of the quote. So you miss the specific relevance that Hebrews gives to this Psalm. You also miss that Jesus was brought low or humbled per Heb 2:9. That is a key point here. He has to be higher than angels to be brought low. You forget that God the Son took on humanity and therefore took on human characteristics. It is not as if God in his fullness was made lower than angels.

These unitarian goof ups show why lay people and improperly trained students have to be cautioned against coming against well-established doctrines. But if you happen to have an argument to deny the Triune God, you just have to make sure that argument has enough substance to it to be convincing to change Christian minds.

 

[mikesw]

When I speak about the Jewish folks not seeing a trinity...

I am referring to Israel in the Old Testament. Not Jews walking around in the New Testament. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God.

Jesus himself tied the greatest commandment in the Law together with there being only one God when an expert in Old Testament law asked him which of the commandments was the most important. Jesus said to him “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God….” (Mark 12:29-30).

I guess you have also proven that the Two Powers of Heaven book improperly points out how Jews were curious about passages like Gen 15:1-5 where both Yahweh and the Angel of the Lord are referred to as Yahweh. I bet you have some really good argument that you have been holding back and are waiting for the perfect moment to share that.

 

[Runningman]

In this single verse, this is your interpretation;
1. Not hearing the Father voice at anytime - just refer to the audience at that time, though "anytime," means not that time.
2. The "nor seen His form" - it's been understood refer to all mankind.
3. Notice the word "nor" in Greek "οὔτε oute" Bible lexicon one definition as - used singly in the sense of.
4. That would mean that "anytime" used singly for "voice and form" means to all mankind not just to the audience that time.

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

G3777 (Mounce)
οὔτε oute
used singly in the sense of

I think you're overgeneralizing what Jesus said and applying it to everyone else. See he said, "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." when speaking to the Jewish religious leaders at that time. He wasn't talking about all of prophets who had already seen and heard the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

I thought I would list my teachers...

E. W. Bullinger
Taught me how to understand the Bible with his book called How to enjoy the Bible.

Andrew Wommack
Taught me how to walk in the spirit.

John Sanders
Opened my eyes with his book called The God Who Risks.

Gregory Boyd
Shed a lot of light as did John Sanders with the book called God at War.

And Andew Farley with his videos on the Perfect You...

https://youtu.be/bOtcjkVJLl8?si=qhn3YB_a9PBBxmGy

 

[mikesw]

I thought I would list my teachers...

E. W. Bullinger
Taught me how to understand the Bible with his book called How to enjoy the Bible.

Andrew Wommack
Taught me how to walk in the spirit.

John Sanders
Opened my eyes with his book called The God Who Risks.

Gregory Boyd
Shed a lot of light as did John Sanders with the book called God at War.

And Andew Farley with his videos on the Perfect You...

https://youtu.be/bOtcjkVJLl8?si=qhn3YB_a9PBBxmGy

Thanks. That should be a good list of people to be cautious of.

 

[amazing grace]

Nothing in the verse that mention "shaliah," the text specifically record "he contended with God" and an angel cannot be called God. In Genesis account, Jacob was named "Israel" which means "God prevails" not angel prevails.
May you can answer the question now, who the God Jacob see face to face, but still lived?

H3478
ישׂראל yiśrâ'êl
BDB Definition:
Israel = “God prevails”
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob

Bible lexicon define "revealed" as "to show oneself," just like what Jacob seen God face to face, but did not die.
Just like in 1 Samuel account the "Word" Jesus pre-incarnate had the power to reveal Himself to be seen by man.

The last I looked, Hosea 12:4 was part of scripture ---- if you want to disregard Hosea 12:4, go ahead.
But scripture as a whole should fit together and harmonize.
In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought his favor. [Hosea 12:3,4a] clearly says he strove with the angel and prevailed . . . God sending his angel to act as His agent - the angel fully represented God and was referenced as God - that is the only way to have the record in 1 Samuel and the record in Hosea harmonize.