All Claims of The Son's Deity

[mikesw]

Finally you admit something true. So now you have the problem of finding the Word pre-existing in the OT and you still need to work out how the Word is a thing in 1 John 1:1-3 and why John clearly didn't believe Jesus is God in Acts 4:21-33. I would not want to be in your position having so much scripture completely contradicting your premise.

There you go again. Jesus cannot convey the idea of pre-existing when he says "before Abraham was, I am." Instead, Jesus has to use the word "incarnation" instead of the words he chose. Also, Jesus would have been obstructed from living until the cross if he had stated his pre-existence more clearly."

 

[mikesw]

No need because Jesus' disciples, directly under his supervision, did not baptize that way either.

The water baptism in Jesus' name is about discipleship. Being a disciple of the trinity is not a Biblical concept.

John 4
1When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware He was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples),

You fabricate ideas here. It is not likely that Jesus was saying "I baptize you in the name of Jesus." Schoenheit advocates are becoming more desperate.

 

[Runningman]

There you go again. Jesus cannot convey the idea of pre-existing when he says "before Abraham was, I am." Instead, Jesus has to use the word "incarnation" instead of the words he chose. Also, Jesus would have been obstructed from living until the cross if he had stated his pre-existence more clearly."

Jesus isn't the I AM according to Exodus 3:14,15 and Acts 3:13. Jesus isn't the God of Abraham according to the Bible. Someone who isn't the God of Abraham being the I AM and pre-existing Abraham is not supported by Scripture. That's one of the great many lies your leaders have taught you. I am sure they would be proud you're perpetuating their half baked theology.

 

[Runningman]

You fabricate ideas here. It is not likely that Jesus was saying "I baptize you in the name of Jesus." Schoenheit advocates are becoming more desperate.

There is no evidence they were baptizing in the name of the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." The Bible doesn't support your organization's version of baptism. And I like Schoenheit because he's a great Biblical theologian. Unfortunately, your church was founded by a raging anti-Semite named Martin Luther. Maybe people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[101G]

Different senses of "holy spirit" in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is God one in sense, but then in another sense the holy spirit can be a gift, an anointing, an empowerment, something someone can receive and/or lose. God Himself isn't a gift. Most trinitarian Bibles do a poor job with this distinction of where the holy spirit = a spirit of holiness or where the Holy Spirit = God. So I can understand why you would get thrown off without careful study.

(smile), Think..... God is a Spirit, got it?

101G

 

[Victoria]

Unlike Jesus, God can't even be tempted with sin. Do you agree with this? This is an important first step in learning the difference between Jesus and God.

Agreed, only God Himself can be tempted, & NOT sin. Only God can live a sinless, holy, perfect life. Only God can give, keep, the Ten Commandments, & the Mosaic law, perfectly. Worshiping anyone other than God alone is idolatry. Jewish monotheism strictly reserved worship for God alone, which explains the anger at Jesus' claim.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Exodus 20:3-5

If Jesus isn't God, why didn't He rebuke Thomas? John 20:28
If Jesus isn't God, then how could He possibly forgive sins? Mark 2:1-12
If Jesus isn't God, why did people bow down before Him in worship? Matthew 2:11; Mark 5:6; John 9:38

Only God alone can be the saviour of humanity (i.e. Isaiah 43:3; Isaiah 45:21). That's why 1 John 4:3 is extremely important b/c Satan wants you to believe otherwise to keep you lost. Remember, "Yea, hath God said"...

I AM THAT I AM
(Exodus 3:13-14)

I am the bread of life (John 6:35)
I am the light of the world (John 8:12)
I am the door of the sheep (John 10:7)
I am the good shepherd (John 10:11)
I am the resurrection, and the life (John 11:25)
I am the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6)
I am the true vine (John 15:1)
Before Abraham was, I am (John 8:58)

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24

So again, the word repent doesn't mean to "stop/turn" from sin. Repent means a change of mind/heart.

 

[Victoria]

ESV foot notes: with the blood of his Own which I believe is more in line with the scope of scripture. God did not die, nor did God shed his blood but His Son: ..... And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [Matt. 26:27,28]
Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. [Rom. 3:24,25], etc.

The ESV has way too many errors in it to be trusted.
The biggest red flag of all is the omittion of only begotten.

Examples:
John 1:14; 18; 3:16; 18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9

Next, the ESV makes Joseph the father of Jesus:
Luke 2:33; 43 (one says father, the other says parents)

This is an attack on Jesus' incarnate birth. Jesus was not born from Joseph's seed.

I believe this verse is in reference to Jesus . . . Yes, God is also called the first and the last but God never died, therefore, He was never raised to eternal life to live again. . . . Jesus did die and God raised him from the dead and Jesus became a life-giving spirit, the last Adam.

There's only one first, & last. God alone. Jesus was God in human form so that He could redeem those who believe.
To say God is also called the first, & the last, but never died... you've got two gods here. That's polytheism.

Was Jesus claiming to be God? OT - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM'. And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you . . . God also said to Moses: "Say this to the people of Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. . . . It seems the only name people remember is God's name being I AM WHO I AM, I AM!!!! but His name is Yahweh.

I don't use any Y names, I just call Him Father God, or Abba.

It seems that John 8:58 is one of the rare occurrences (out of many occurrences) of the phrase "I am" which is not followed by a predicate. ego eimi was a very common phrase used as an expression of self identity.

The book of John describes Jesus Christ as God in human form. John 1:1; 14

Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God but he did claim to be the Christ the Son of God.

We do know for a fact that king David killed Goliath. According to the ESV, it was Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim. If something that noticable of an error exists in the ESV, then how could we therefore trust the interpretation of who Jesus Christ is in the ESV?

 

[Victoria]

i basically keep it on scriptures but just posting a scripture does not make any point when not reflecting what a verse or passage conveys.

God can defend Himself, Mike. If you're not using scripture to help someone see their error(s), then perhaps engaging in spiritual warfare isn't something you're qualified to do. 2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 4:12

 

[Victoria]

Precious friend, yes, agree = It is better to obey God, rather than keep these endless arguments going by "bashing others over the head with Scriptures", eh?:

(Romans 16:17; Titus 3:10 AV)

Lord God Please help us all. Amen.

Those two verses are something I definitely needed hearing.
Something I'm still working on. Thanks for the rebuke

From here, I need to just leave it in God's hands.

 

[amazing grace]

Agreed, only God Himself can be tempted, & NOT sin. Only God can live a sinless, holy, perfect life. Only God can give, keep, the Ten Commandments, & the Mosaic law, perfectly. Worshiping anyone other than God alone is idolatry. Jewish monotheism strictly reserved worship for God alone, which explains the anger at Jesus' claim.

Correct, worshiping anyone other than God AS God is idolatry.
God cannot be tempted . . . Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. [James 1:14]
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [Hebrews 4:15] It seems that Jesus was able to live a sinless, holy, perfect life by always choosing to submit his will to the will of his Father's.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Exodus 20:3-5

Amen.

If Jesus isn't God, why didn't He rebuke Thomas? John 20:28

Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead and he stated that fact.

If Jesus isn't God, then how could He possibly forgive sins? Mark 2:1-12

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." [Matt. 28:18]
. . . "But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” [Mark 2:10]

If Jesus isn't God, why did people bow down before Him in worship? Matthew 2:11; Mark 5:6; John 9:38

proskyneo - translated worship - to bow down, prostrate oneself, or show deep reverence and submission to someone, often through actions like kneeling or kissing the hand of a superior; signifying both a physical act of bowing and an internal attitude of homage. They bowed before him giving homage, respect due a superior.
that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. [John 5:23]

Only God alone can be the saviour of humanity (i.e. Isaiah 43:3; Isaiah 45:21). That's why 1 John 4:3 is extremely important b/c Satan wants you to believe otherwise to keep you lost. Remember, "Yea, hath God said"...

There are plenty of men that God appointed as saviors throughout the OT yet there is only one savior that gives eternal life and that life is in His Son.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [John 3:16]
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [John 5:26]
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. [John 20:31]
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [1 John 5:11]

I AM THAT I AM
(Exodus 3:13-14)

I am the bread of life (John 6:35)
I am the light of the world (John 8:12)
I am the door of the sheep (John 10:7)
I am the good shepherd (John 10:11)
I am the resurrection, and the life (John 11:25)
I am the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6)
I am the true vine (John 15:1)
Before Abraham was, I am (John 8:58)

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24

Post #2092:

Was Jesus claiming to be God? OT - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM'. And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you . . . God also said to Moses: "Say this to the people of Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. . . . It seems the only name people remember is God's name being I AM WHO I AM, I AM!!!! but His name is Yahweh.

You can clearly see from the verses above that each I am statement is followed by a predicate. Yet John 8:58 is one of the rare occurrences (out of many occurrences) of the phrase "I am" which is not followed by a predicate. ego eimi was a very common phrase used as an expression of self identity.

John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he (ego eimi) you will die in your sins.” - I am who I claim to be . . . just as in Mark 14:60, 61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am (ego eimi), and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” - I am the Christ, the Son of the Blessed - I am who I claim to be.
Matt. 16:15 . . . But whom do you say I am? (ego eimi) Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God but he did claim to be the Christ the Son of God.
Ya know . . . these Jews who are making accusations against Jesus in this context - Jesus said of them that they said were of their father the devil which is why they couldn't understand what he was saying. . . .their will was to do their father's desires. Their father was a murderer from the beginning, and did not stand in the truth because there was no truth in him . . . which is why Jesus said: 'but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God?'
Jesus wasn't claiming to be God at all . . . Jesus was before Abraham in God's foreknowledge, in the mind of God as set forth in Genesis 3:15 and Abraham did look forward to Jesus' day in faith . . .

So again, the word repent doesn't mean to "stop/turn" from sin. Repent means a change of mind/heart.