All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Victoria]

God the Father is calling God the Son God

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:8-9

Back in Genesis... God referring to Himself in the plural? Why... it's the Godhead!

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

 

[mikesw]

I could write a book just on these 4 verses...

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

John 5:21, 23, 26
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Maybe you should try to develop some decent arguments for your view before writing a book using illogical, failed arguments. Learn to walk before you get on a tight rope. Or not.

 

[Victoria]

@101G

As Jesus Christ once told Thomas, & be not faithless, but believing!

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." John 20:27-28

 

[mikesw]

@101G

As Jesus Christ once told Thomas, & be not faithless, but believing!

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." John 20:27-28

That point just goes way over their heads. It is too direct I guess.

 

[Victoria]

That point just goes way over their heads. It is too direct I guess.

Do I have to play referee between you guys?

::ding, ding, ding:::

Okay, break apart... BREAK apart!

 

[Peterlag]

Maybe you should try to develop some decent arguments for your view before writing a book using illogical, failed arguments. Learn to walk before you get on a tight rope. Or not.

Hows this...

Nowhere did Jesus ever say:

I am YHWH.
I am the one who appeared to Moses.
You must worship me as God.
Instead, Jesus always made a clear distinction between himself and God:

• • John 5:37 – You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
  • John 17:3 – This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
  • John 20:17 – I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
  • Acts 3:13 – The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Who Was Seen in the Old Testament Then?​

In the Old Testament, the one who appeared and spoke for YHWH was often called:

• • The Angel of the LORD (מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה – Malakh YHWH).
    This messenger spoke in YHWH’s name, used YHWH’s authority, and sometimes was even called “God” because he represented God perfectly.

Examples:

• • Exodus 3:2–6 – The Angel of the LORD” appears in the burning bush, yet speaks as God: “I am the God of your father.
  • Exodus 23:20–22 – God says, My Angel will go before you… My Name is in him.

This “messenger” or “agent” (in Hebrew, shaliach) acts on behalf of YHWH, not as YHWH Himself.
This fits perfectly with the New Testament picture of Jesus as:

The one sent by God.
The Word.
The image of the invisible God.
Jesus is the divine representative of YHWH, not YHWH Himself.

Why Many Christians Misunderstand...​

After Jesus and the apostles died, early Greek theologians (like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Athanasius) tried to explain Jesus’ divinity using Greek philosophy, not Hebrew thought.
They merged:

• • The Word of God (Logos) from John 1
    with
  • Greek ideas about divine “substance” and “essence.”

This led to the idea that Jesus was not only sent by YHWH but was YHWH in human form — a belief the early Christians never taught.

 

[Victoria]

Why Many Christians Misunderstand...​

After Jesus and the apostles died, early Greek theologians (like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Athanasius) tried to explain Jesus’ divinity using Greek philosophy, not Hebrew thought.
They merged:

• • The Word of God (Logos) from John 1
    with
  • Greek ideas about divine “substance” and “essence.”

This led to the idea that Jesus was not only sent by YHWH but was YHWH in human form — a belief the early Christians never taught.

I'd forget about what Greek theologians/philosophers from the past said.
Just believe what God Himself said in the scriptures.

First off, do you believe we don't have the inspired, preserved, infallible Word of God like the Textual Critics believe?

 

[mikesw]

Hows this...

Nowhere did Jesus ever say:

I am YHWH.
I am the one who appeared to Moses.
You must worship me as God.

At least you realize Jesus did not say that of you

Instead, Jesus always made a clear distinction between himself and God:

• • John 5:37 – You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
  • John 17:3 – This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
  • John 20:17 – I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
  • Acts 3:13 – The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

​

Jesus would have been crucified the first time he explicitly said "I am God." Instead, he spoke more in an indirect sense. And your are right. Jesus did not have a different God. He had the same God as known in Israel. He is sent from heaven to be among the people. And I'm not sure why the Father would not glorify the Son. But some reason that confuses you?

Who Was Seen in the Old Testament Then?
In the Old Testament, the one who appeared and spoke for YHWH was often called:

• • The Angel of the LORD (מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה – Malakh YHWH).
    This messenger spoke in YHWH’s name, used YHWH’s authority, and sometimes was even called “God” because he represented God perfectly.

Examples:

• • Exodus 3:2–6 – The Angel of the LORD” appears in the burning bush, yet speaks as God: “I am the God of your father.
  • Exodus 23:20–22 – God says, My Angel will go before you… My Name is in him.

This “messenger” or “agent” (in Hebrew, shaliach) acts on behalf of YHWH, not as YHWH Himself.

It is reminded that the words of the Angel of the LORD were spoken by Yahweh. Ex 3:4-5
4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”

Sure, it can be hard to remember that detail.

This fits perfectly with the New Testament picture of Jesus as:

The one sent by God.
The Word.
The image of the invisible God.
Jesus is the divine representative of YHWH, not YHWH Himself.

Wow. You almost say the right words at first. Jesus is sent from God. Jesus is the Word. Therefore Jesus is the image of the invisible God. You get 50% credit for pointing out those details

Why Many Christians Misunderstand...​

After Jesus and the apostles died, early Greek theologians (like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Athanasius) tried to explain Jesus’ divinity using Greek philosophy, not Hebrew thought.
They merged:

• • The Word of God (Logos) from John 1
    with
  • Greek ideas about divine “substance” and “essence.”

This led to the idea that Jesus was not only sent by YHWH but was YHWH in human form — a belief the early Christians never taught.

Sure. You have some errors in representing Jesus. He is not quite Yahweh in human form. That is one of the many heresies beyond just the unitarian one. Jesus is human. He also is God. Say that three times. The problem with unitarians is they only have limited vocabulary and cannot discuss at all who Christ Jesus is.

 

[Victoria]

Why Many Christians Misunderstand...​

After Jesus and the apostles died, early Greek theologians (like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Athanasius) tried to explain Jesus’ divinity using Greek philosophy, not Hebrew thought.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:6-9

 

[Victoria]

Philosophy & vain deceit stems from the gnostic's, & philosophers from Alexandria, Egypt.

 

[Victoria]

@mikesw @Peterlag

As God said in 1 Timothy 2:3-4... come unto the knowledge of the truth!

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/about-this-new-section.2249/#post-203323

 

[Capbook]

Can someone have that life outside Jesus?
Yes Jesus can have that life.

Now, Who is the eternal life in 1John 5:20.
Jesus and God...
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Why Arians cannot honestly answer the question?
Is it hard to face the truth? Again;
1. Jesus said "I am the life." (John 14:6)
2. The Father's testimony, "that eternal life is in His Son."(1John 5:11)
3. Do the Father's testimony expire 9 verses onward?
4. If no, then Who is the eternal life in 1John 5:20? (Can we stick to this verse being mentioned)

 

[amazing grace]

Hi there, amazing grace

The Holy Spirit, "aka" 3rd person of the Godhead, is who comes to live within a believer upon salvation.
The apostle Paul tells us that He (the Holy Spirit) seals us until the day of redemption too

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [adoption/catching up "aka" rapture], unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

We couldn't get our glorified bodies otherwise to be able to operate in the heavens. The Holy Spirit meanwhile lives within us, ministers God's Word unto us, transforms us from the inside out, & enables us to walk in the spirit.

Thanks but I disagree that the Holy Spirit is a 3rd person of the Trinity.

I believe God is THE Holy Spirit (He is Holy and He is Spirit). We receive the gift of holy spirit upon repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) which is the being baptized with holy spirit = the new birth = being born again of the spirit (John 3).

Yes, we are sealed with the gift of holy spirit. God in Christ lives in us by means of the gift of holy spirit.

 

[amazing grace]

Funny how you forgot to highlight Bart finding the gospels sharing Jesus as divine and, with crude wording, " a God-man, in all the gospels."
It should be a caution to unitarians who miss the obvious detail, even shared by a skeptic of the Bible. But it is useful if someone is reasonably informed of good doctrine and rejects unitarian arguments to the contrary of scripture.
Indeed I have changed doctrines (as summary of details of scripture) due to the consistent message shared in specific areas. So I appreciate when someone finds some insight but is willing to have it go through the debates whether the ideas make sense.

Oh, but no I did not forget. I took the time to write down what he had said in his blog post.

<snip> "Those Gospels do indeed think of Jesus as divine. Being made the very Son of God who can heal, cast out demons raise the dead and pronounce divine forgiveness, receive worship together suggest that even these gospels Jesus was a divine being, a God-man, in all the Gospels, but in very different ways depending on which gospel you read." < snip>

I have changed my major doctrine once - from Trinitarian to Unitarian. Other specific areas, yes, I have also changed my mind.

 

[amazing grace]

The Divine Son is able to give the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure why that is a problem.
Sure it is a new birth where God's Spirit abides in man. I'm not sure what you are contesting.

Bullinger's ideas can be useful. I am just noting that he is not denying the Holy Spirit in the way you would wish to.

#1 The pnuema is used of God Himself or the "Father". "God" is pneuma." (John 4:24) It is His Divine Nature that is spoken of. . . . #2 The word pneuma is used of Christ, the second Person of the Trinity. He, in resurrection, became a quickening or life-giving pneuma (1 Cor. 15:45) . . . (Word Studies of the Holy Spirit, p. 14,15)

As you see above he does mention "the second Person of the Trinity" --- I don't believe in the Trinity so I don't believe that Christ is the second person of the Trinity but I do believe Jesus was resurrection and became a life-giving spirit. As you can imagine there is a whole list of occurrences and usages of spirit with their corresponding verses and not all meanings have to do with being a 'person.'

Oops. I forgot. For the unitarian this is just this impersonal power commonly pushed by New Age religions. It is possible that the divine Son also had the third person of the Trinity in him. So you could be half-right but still erring on who the Holy Spirit is

If you are not New Age, then stop speaking like a New Ager.

Since I am not New Age then I don't know how they speak therefore I cannot stop doing something I don't recognize.

Did Jesus walk on water or did he walk on h2o? There is no problem of Jesus sending the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity into their lives. Indeeed the Spirit had not been given to the disciples until the Day of Pentecost.

<snip>
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Is this referring to the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity or is this talking about the gift of holy spirit Jesus would pour out on the day of Pentecost?
<snip>

Yes, Jesus walked on water . . . what's that got to do with anything?
So, you believe Jesus poured out the third person of the Trinity on the day of Penecost . . . ok.

#14 Pneuma Hagion. This expression (which occurs fifty times) without articles, is never used of the Giver (the Holy Spirit), but always of His Gift. What this gift is may be seen by comparing Acts 1.4,5 with Luke xxiv. 49, where "the promise of the Father" is (in Acts) called pnuema hagion (holy spirit), and (in Luke) it is called "power from on high". This "power" includes whatever spiritual gifts the Holy Spirit may be pleased to bestow. . . . . Whenever spirit is said to fall, or to be given, or to fill, or be baptized with, it is always pneuma without the article, or pneuma hagion. (Word Studies on the Holy Spirit, p. 214)

Your thinking could still be corrected while you are alive

Seriously though I do acknowledge that someone could come out with a better description of the Godhead than the current recognition. That was one curiosity I had when first discussing stuff on what became unitarian adherents.

Your thinking can be corrected while you are alive also!

After all these years, I think 'a better description of the Godhead' has given way to "it's a mystery" . . . .

 

[amazing grace]

God the Father is calling God the Son God

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:8-9

Quoted from Psalm 45:6,7 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions; . . . Addressed to a human Israelite king . . . and just as there, here in Hebrews Jesus the human Israelite king, the human Son of God being called 'God' YET as seen each have a God, a personal God which has anointed them . . . .
Who is that God that anointed them?

Back in Genesis... God referring to Himself in the plural? Why... it's the Godhead!

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

Who is there in the beginning when God is creating - His created beings - his heavenly court, the angels, 'Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? . . . Who determined its measurements----surely you know! . . . when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy! [Job 38:4,5,7]

 

[Peterlag]

Why Arians cannot honestly answer the question?
Is it hard to face the truth? Again;
1. Jesus said "I am the life." (John 14:6)
2. The Father's testimony, "that eternal life is in His Son."(1John 5:11)
3. Do the Father's testimony expire 9 verses onward?
4. If no, then Who is the eternal life in 1John 5:20? (Can we stick to this verse being mentioned)

I answer your questions. You don't like my answer so you say I am not answering. Again there's no one God or one Jesus that has life in themselves. For the third time here's the verse...

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 

[Peterlag]

At least you realize Jesus did not say that of you

Jesus would have been crucified the first time he explicitly said "I am God." Instead, he spoke more in an indirect sense. And your are right. Jesus did not have a different God. He had the same God as known in Israel. He is sent from heaven to be among the people. And I'm not sure why the Father would not glorify the Son. But some reason that confuses you?

It is reminded that the words of the Angel of the LORD were spoken by Yahweh. Ex 3:4-5
4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”

Sure, it can be hard to remember that detail.


Wow. You almost say the right words at first. Jesus is sent from God. Jesus is the Word. Therefore Jesus is the image of the invisible God. You get 50% credit for pointing out those details

Jesus would have been crucified the first time he explicitly said "I am God."

So in your mind you think the Jews could of killed God. And so God could not say who he was because He was afraid. Image if you will that you are going to kill God. Just stop your mind for a few seconds and honestly think about that. Does it cross your mind that you just might be picking a fight with someone that is just a little itty bitty tad bit bigger than what you could handle?

 

[Peterlag]

I'd forget about what Greek theologians/philosophers from the past said.
Just believe what God Himself said in the scriptures.

First off, do you believe we don't have the inspired, preserved, infallible Word of God like the Textual Critics believe?

We have enough of the Word of God in copies that I have been able to put it together so as to tap into the spirit of Christ and walk in him.

 

[101G]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-3

Yes, 101G... the same LORD of the Old Testament is the same LORD of the New Testament.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." Isaiah 48:12

Jesus is the King of Israel

"He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him." Matthew 27:42

"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel." John 1:49

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." Revelation 1:11

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;"
Revelation 2:8

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:13

Good so you agree that it is only "ONE" person who is God...... JESUS, correct.

101G.