All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Complete]

'I exhort therefore, that, first of all,
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
(1Tim. 2:1-6)

'And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee
shall be called the Son of God.'
(Luke 1:35)

Praise God!

 

[dwight92070]

I believe one in the purpose of saving mankind. And as for me I will understand it as they are one also in the nature of being God. (Col 2:9)

I definitely agree with you there.

 

[dwight92070]

I don't think that @dwight92070 is a modalist but he can confirm that.

No I am not. Modalism says that God is one person who shifts between three modes. I believe in one God, who is three persons, each of which are God. I also believe that the three persons are distinct from each other, yet at the same time, they ARE each other.

 

[Peterlag]

Correct. @Peterlag does not follow the narrative of the Bible but builds his own imaginary narrative. He goes off on a tanget building his own imaginary story of what actually transpired between the Pharisees and Jesus. That's called plot assassination and @Peterlag is proud of it.

There is no Scripture from the Pharisees that say Jesus is God. There's only I think just one where they say something like he makes himself to be a god. And many translations translate that as a god or divine. Being the son of God does put one in that category of being divine. You guys got nothing but your own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then you construct your "own God" which is the product of your own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more.

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry the issue was the use of theos with or without an article

It was not about how Elohim was used

Will you admit the examples of Theos I gave you without the article refer to what you would term the true God?

Your point is of a child not understanding how language is used. God or god when used must be understood in the context if it's referring to God or god or gods. One way, but not all ways is if the verse has an article. If the verse starts with God then we would not write The God. Your picking at straws.

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry context clearly shows otherwise.

John 8:56–59 (NASB95) — 56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


Your theology is not based upon an exegetical handling of scripture.

Abraham was a Prophet and that's how God showed him the coming of the Christ. That Jesus was really there with Abraham is just trinity spin.

 

[Peterlag]

The Father had said to the Son, Your throne God, is forever and ever, and two word "God" can be read in the next verse. The first referred to Jesus and the other referred to the Father in support to the previous verse. (Heb 1:8-9)
And so with John 1:18, NASB rendered Jesus as the only-begotten God, supported by the oldest manuscripts that contain almost the book of John, the papyrus 66, and papyrus 75. Other readings were from later manuscripts.

John 1:18
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASB

Hebrews 1:8
“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7, which is a good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:7. Psalm 45:6 was God’s revelation to the Jews about their king, and here in Hebrews, Psalm 45:6-7 is being used to show that Jesus Christ is indeed God’s Messiah as was foretold in the Old Testament. Furthermore, not only was Jesus foretold to be the exalted king, he is presented in Hebrews as being better than angels (Hebrews 1:4). The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The Son has become better than the angels, who pay homage to him. The angels are ministers of God, but God Himself is the Son’s authority to rule, and God—the God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalm 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalm is not God, but is a human being.

The renowned Greek scholar and Trinitarian, A. T. Robertson noted that the Greek word theos (God) could be understood as a vocative, “O God” or as a nominative, as in the phrase “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” He wrote: “Either [translation] makes good sense.” Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalms 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. The Jews read Psalms 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalms 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalms is not God, but is a human being.

 

[synergy]

There is no Scripture from the Pharisees that say Jesus is God. There's only I think just one where they say something like he makes himself to be a god. And many translations translate that as a god or divine. Being the son of God does put one in that category of being divine. You guys got nothing but your own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then you construct your "own God" which is the product of your own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more.

You just got nailed for a Biblical narrative assassination and now you want to make me a witness to more of your Biblical narrative assassinations? No thank you. I will not be an accessory to any of your plot assassinations, no matter how proud you are of them.

 

[dwight92070]

Abraham was a Prophet and that's how God showed him the coming of the Christ. That Jesus was really there with Abraham is just trinity spin.

Obviously you haven't read John 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

How did the Jews understand this statement? "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"

You're not thinking that Jesus lied here, are you?

So Jesus is claiming that Abraham saw Him - of course He wouldn't be called Jesus at that time, because the incarnation had not happened yet. But there are at least two possible incidents when Abraham could have seen Jesus. One was when Melchizedek blessed Abraham. Hebrews 7:1-3 makes it quite clear that Melchizedek was a preincarnate appearance of Jesus. Also see Genesis 14:18-20.

The other occurrence is found in Genesis 18:1, which flat out says: "Now the LORD APPEARED TO HIM (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre ..." This also is clearly a preincarnate appearance of Jesus to Abraham."

Of course there is the possibility that there was an unrecorded incident when Jesus appeared to Abraham, but I doubt it, because I don't think Jesus would have made reference to His appearing to Abraham at all, unless it could be verified by the scripture. Jesus is very aware of the fact that His disciples (including us today) want to see confirmation of His claims. Of course, certain incidents do not necessitate confirmation, such as the tower in Siloam falling and killing eighteen people, or Pilate killing Galileans when they were sacrificing. There's no need to confirm these, but we trust that Jesus is telling us the truth here, as He always did.

Next fallacy.

 

[Peterlag]

Obviously you haven't read John 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

How did the Jews understand this statement? "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"

You're not thinking that Jesus lied here, are you?

So Jesus is claiming that Abraham saw Him - of course He wouldn't be called Jesus at that time, because the incarnation had not happened yet. But there are at least two possible incidents when Abraham could have seen Jesus. One was when Melchizedek blessed Abraham. Hebrews 7:1-3 makes it quite clear that Melchizedek was a preincarnate appearance of Jesus. Also see Genesis 14:18-20.

The other occurrence is found in Genesis 18:1, which flat out says: "Now the LORD APPEARED TO HIM (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre ..." This also is clearly a preincarnate appearance of Jesus to Abraham."

Of course there is the possibility that there was an unrecorded incident when Jesus appeared to Abraham, but I doubt it, because I don't think Jesus would have made reference to His appearing to Abraham at all, unless it could be verified by the scripture. Jesus is very aware of the fact that His disciples (including us today) want to see confirmation of His claims. Of course, certain incidents do not necessitate confirmation, such as the tower in Siloam falling and killing eighteen people, or Pilate killing Galileans when they were sacrificing. There's no need to confirm these, but we trust that Jesus is telling us the truth here, as He always did.

Next fallacy.

The Jews were being like you not understanding what Jesus was saying.

 

[Peterlag]

You just got nailed for a Biblical narrative assassination and now you want to make me a witness to more of your Biblical narrative assassinations? No thank you. I will not be an accessory to any of your plot assassinations, no matter how proud you are of them.

How did I just get nailed because you don't understand how the word "God" was used in their culture?

 

[TomL]

Abraham was a Prophet and that's how God showed him the coming of the Christ. That Jesus was really there with Abraham is just trinity spin.

Before Abraham I am



John 8:56–59 (NASB95) — 56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


Your theology is not based upon an exegetical handling of scripture.

 

[TomL]

Your point is of a child not understanding how language is used. God or god when used must be understood in the context if it's referring to God or god or gods. One way, but not all ways is if the verse has an article. If the verse starts with God then we would not write The God. Your picking at straws.

You ignored the point. The true God may be seen withouit the article and you need to dump the argument that stated differently.

 

[Capbook]

Hebrews 1:8
“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7, which is a good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:7. Psalm 45:6 was God’s revelation to the Jews about their king, and here in Hebrews, Psalm 45:6-7 is being used to show that Jesus Christ is indeed God’s Messiah as was foretold in the Old Testament. Furthermore, not only was Jesus foretold to be the exalted king, he is presented in Hebrews as being better than angels (Hebrews 1:4). The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The Son has become better than the angels, who pay homage to him. The angels are ministers of God, but God Himself is the Son’s authority to rule, and God—the God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalm 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalm is not God, but is a human being.

The renowned Greek scholar and Trinitarian, A. T. Robertson noted that the Greek word theos (God) could be understood as a vocative, “O God” or as a nominative, as in the phrase “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” He wrote: “Either [translation] makes good sense.” Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalms 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. The Jews read Psalms 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalms 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalms is not God, but is a human being.

If Psa 45:6 refer to a human being, can you trace where’s his forever and ever throne in the NT?

As to the correct rendering of the verse, can’t we go to the original? In the Tanakh cited in verse 7, and compare to KJV, notice the Strong No. of both verses it doesn’t say what you’ve said. Proven that the correct rendering is “Thy throne O God.

Psa 45:7 כסאך H3678  אלהים H430  עולם H5769  ועד H5703  שׁבט H7626  מישׁר H4334  שׁבט H7626 
מלכותך׃ H4438

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678  O God, H430  is for ever H5769  and ever: H5703  the sceptre H7626  of thy kingdom H4438  is a right H4334  sceptre. H7626

 

[TomL]

Hebrews 1:8
“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7, which is a good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:7. Psalm 45:6 was God’s revelation to the Jews about their king, and here in Hebrews, Psalm 45:6-7 is being used to show that Jesus Christ is indeed God’s Messiah as was foretold in the Old Testament. Furthermore, not only was Jesus foretold to be the exalted king, he is presented in Hebrews as being better than angels (Hebrews 1:4). The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The Son has become better than the angels, who pay homage to him. The angels are ministers of God, but God Himself is the Son’s authority to rule, and God—the God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalm 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalm is not God, but is a human being.

The renowned Greek scholar and Trinitarian, A. T. Robertson noted that the Greek word theos (God) could be understood as a vocative, “O God” or as a nominative, as in the phrase “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” He wrote: “Either [translation] makes good sense.” Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalms 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. The Jews read Psalms 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalms 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalms is not God, but is a human being.

Um you are in denial

Hebrews 1:1–11 (NASB95) — 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

 

[Peterlag]

Um you are in denial

Hebrews 1:1–11 (NASB95) — 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

I'm telling you... you guys can't read. Verse one says God. Verse two His son, whom He appointed. through whom He (God) made the world.

 

[Peterlag]

If Psa 45:6 refer to a human being, can you trace where’s his forever and ever throne in the NT?

As to the correct rendering of the verse, can’t we go to the original? In the Tanakh cited in verse 7, and compare to KJV, notice the Strong No. of both verses it doesn’t say what you’ve said. Proven that the correct rendering is “Thy throne O God.

Psa 45:7 כסאך H3678  אלהים H430  עולם H5769  ועד H5703  שׁבט H7626  מישׁר H4334  שׁבט H7626 
מלכותך׃ H4438

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678  O God, H430  is for ever H5769  and ever: H5703  the sceptre H7626  of thy kingdom H4438  is a right H4334  sceptre. H7626

I would respond if I understood the question.

 

[Peterlag]

You ignored the point. The true God may be seen withouit the article and you need to dump the argument that stated differently.

Show me where I said all Scripture. Not just the verse we were talking about. But all Scripture must have an article before the word God. Where? Where did I write that?

 

[Peterlag]

Before Abraham I am



John 8:56–59 (NASB95) — 56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.


Your theology is not based upon an exegetical handling of scripture.

Where am I wrong? The Jews thought like you and both of you are wrong on how you are taking that statement made by Jesus. John who wrote the book of Revelation saw the glory of Jesus in the second coming. Are we now supposed to believe John was there in the future? You guys are like little kids. It's revelation. God showing His Prophets stuff that was going to later come about.

 

[Capbook]

I would respond if I understood the question.

You’ve said Psa 45:6 refer to human being, where it state “Thy throne, O God is forever and ever” you can verify it to the original Hebrew of the Tanakh I’ve quoted.

The question is, if it did refer to the human king, where can we find the “forever and ever” throne of the human king in the New Testament?
As I understand “forever and ever” is perpetual or continous in existence per Bible lexicon definition.

Psa 45:7 כסאך H3678  אלהים H430  עולם H5769  ועד H5703  שׁבט H7626  מישׁר H4334  שׁבט H7626 
מלכותך׃ H4438

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678  O God, H430  is for ever H5769  and ever: H5703  the sceptre H7626  of thy kingdom H4438  is a right H4334  sceptre. H7626