All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Peterlag]

Says the man who continually avoids responding to argument and text

example

So you imagine everytime the article does not appear a god is meant


then you must offer the following

John 1:6A man came, sent from a god, whose name was John.
John 1:13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of a god.
John 9:33If this man were not from a god, he would not be able to do anything!”
John 16:30Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe that you have come from a god.”

there is a lot more but these are examples I took from the book of John

I just responded to this and you say that I did not. Here I will post it again...

The majority of the times Elohim occurs in the Bible, it refers to the true God. However, even a brief glance through a Hebrew concordance will show that many times it refers to false gods. Dozens of verses could be cited as examples, but a few are: “You must not have any other gods [Elohim] besides me” (Exodus 20:3); “You must not bow down to their gods [Elohim]” (Exodus 23:24); “Israel chose new gods [Elohim]” (Judges 5:8); and, “[Solomon’s] wives turned away his heart after other gods [Elohim]” (1 Kings 11:4). There are times when Elohim is used to refer to a specific pagan god: for example, Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:7), Chemosh (Judges 11:24), and Baal (1 Kings 18:24-27).

Elohim, “God” can also refer to angels or other spirit beings. One example is Psalm 8:5, which says God made mankind a little lower than Elohim. Given the flexible meaning of Elohim, the verse could be saying that God made mankind a little lower than He Himself, or it could be saying that He made mankind a little lower than his representatives in the spirit world, i.e., angels. Thankfully, the interpretation is not in doubt because the verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:7, which says “angels” letting us know that in Psalm 8:5, Elohim refers to God’s representatives, the angels. Thus Psalm 8:5 is an excellent example of how the New Testament clarifies our understanding of the Old Testament. Another example is Judges 13:22, where Manoah and his wife saw an angel, but exclaimed, “We have seen God [Elohim].” Their statement made perfect sense in the biblical culture because they saw God’s representative.

There are times when God’s representatives are called “God” (Elohim and even Yahweh!) when they represent God and speak on His behalf. This is referred to as “agency.” The essence of the principle of agency is: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” The principle of agency is well-attested by scholars and occurs quite a few times in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 16:13, even though Hagar was speaking to an angel, she referred to him as Yahweh and El (God). In Genesis 31:11 an angel speaks to Jacob, but in Genesis 31:13 he says, “I am the God [El] of Bethel.” In Genesis 32:28, 30 it seems Jacob is wrestling with God [Elohim], but we learn from Hosea 12:3-4 that it was an angel representing God. Another example is that Exodus 13:21 says “Yahweh” went before Israel in the pillar of fire, but Exodus 14:19 and 23:20-23 let us know it was an angel, a representative of God. So “Yahweh” did go in front of Israel as represented by his angel protector. Similarly, if you read Judges 2:1-4, an angel speaks to the Israelites, but his speech is in the first person as if he were God Himself.

Elohim, “God” can also refer to human rulers, kings, prophets, and people who represent God in some way. Thus Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9, almost certainly refer to God’s representatives as Elohim, “God” (Exodus 22:28 likely does too. Psalm 82:1 is noteworthy because it uses Elohim twice; at the beginning of the verse to refer to the true God, and at the end of the verse to refer to rulers and people who represent Him. The verse says, “Elohim [God] takes his stand in his own assembly. He judges in the midst of the Elohim [gods].” Furthermore, Psalm 82:6 says “You are Elohim [gods], all of you are children of the Most High.” As sons of the Most High, these rulers are qualified to be called Elohim, [gods]. Psalm 97:7 also calls rulers Elohim.

There are times when specific individuals are called Elohim, “God.” One example is Moses. In Exodus 7:1, God is speaking to Moses and says, “See, I have made thee God [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (Darby). Given the uniplural nature of Elohim, another translation is, “See, I have made you a god [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (BBE, KJV), but the fact is that Moses, who represents Elohim (“God”) can legitimately be called Elohim (“God”) in the biblical culture. Another example is when King Saul wanted to speak to the dead prophet Samuel and went to a woman who was a medium and necromancer (1 Samuel 28:7-15). When she conjured up “Samuel” (actually a demon impersonating Samuel), the woman said, “I see Elohim coming up from the ground” (1 Samuel 28:13). This is a good example of a person being called Elohim, and we could translate it “God” and understand the custom of God’s representatives being called “God” or a more easily understood translation for the English reader is simply, “a god” the woman saw “a god” coming up who she thought was Samuel.

Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, for Thomas to also refer to Jesus as “god” is certainly understandable. In contrast, to assert that Thomas said that Jesus was “God” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. As was noted above, in biblical times it was common to call God’s representatives “God” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples, such as when Jacob wrestled with “God” and it's clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4).

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry you cannot get that from John 1:1

Nothing in John 1 about the word being an impersonal thing.

Contrarywise as posted

There is no mention of wisdom anywhere in john 1:1-3

and john 1:18 refers to the incarnation

Before the incarnation we had one who existed in the form of God who could consider.

'
Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

His pre-existence is further shown

Jude 4–5 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not

There is no mention of the word "wisdom" in John 1:1. But there is the word "logos" mentioned that means wisdom.

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek philosophy, "logos" referred to the principle of order and knowledge. Philosophers like Heraclitus used it to describe the rational principle governing the cosmos. In the Hellenistic Jewish context, "logos" was associated with divine wisdom and the intermediary between God and the world.

Good Lord, I was hoping you were able to understand a little of the Bible.

 

[TomL]

There is no mention of the word "wisdom" in John 1:1. But there is the word "logos" mentioned that means wisdom.

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek philosophy, "logos" referred to the principle of order and knowledge. Philosophers like Heraclitus used it to describe the rational principle governing the cosmos. In the Hellenistic Jewish context, "logos" was associated with divine wisdom and the intermediary between God and the world.

Good Lord, I was hoping you were able to understand a little of the Bible.

No sorry Logos does not mean wisdom and scripture was posted showing a personal existence

Nothing in John 1 about the word being an impersonal thing.

Contrarywise as posted

There is no mention of wisdom anywhere in john 1:1-3

and john 1:18 refers to the incarnation

Before the incarnation we had one who existed in the form of God who could consider.

'
Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

His pre-existence is further shown

Jude 4–5 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not

Which you never address

 

[TomL]

I just responded to this and you say that I did not. Here I will post it again...

The majority of the times Elohim occurs in the Bible, it refers to the true God. However, even a brief glance through a Hebrew concordance will show that many times it refers to false gods. Dozens of verses could be cited as examples, but a few are: “You must not have any other gods [Elohim] besides me” (Exodus 20:3); “You must not bow down to their gods [Elohim]” (Exodus 23:24); “Israel chose new gods [Elohim]” (Judges 5:8); and, “[Solomon’s] wives turned away his heart after other gods [Elohim]” (1 Kings 11:4). There are times when Elohim is used to refer to a specific pagan god: for example, Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:7), Chemosh (Judges 11:24), and Baal (1 Kings 18:24-27).

Elohim, “God” can also refer to angels or other spirit beings. One example is Psalm 8:5, which says God made mankind a little lower than Elohim. Given the flexible meaning of Elohim, the verse could be saying that God made mankind a little lower than He Himself, or it could be saying that He made mankind a little lower than his representatives in the spirit world, i.e., angels. Thankfully, the interpretation is not in doubt because the verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:7, which says “angels” letting us know that in Psalm 8:5, Elohim refers to God’s representatives, the angels. Thus Psalm 8:5 is an excellent example of how the New Testament clarifies our understanding of the Old Testament. Another example is Judges 13:22, where Manoah and his wife saw an angel, but exclaimed, “We have seen God [Elohim].” Their statement made perfect sense in the biblical culture because they saw God’s representative.

There are times when God’s representatives are called “God” (Elohim and even Yahweh!) when they represent God and speak on His behalf. This is referred to as “agency.” The essence of the principle of agency is: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” The principle of agency is well-attested by scholars and occurs quite a few times in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 16:13, even though Hagar was speaking to an angel, she referred to him as Yahweh and El (God). In Genesis 31:11 an angel speaks to Jacob, but in Genesis 31:13 he says, “I am the God [El] of Bethel.” In Genesis 32:28, 30 it seems Jacob is wrestling with God [Elohim], but we learn from Hosea 12:3-4 that it was an angel representing God. Another example is that Exodus 13:21 says “Yahweh” went before Israel in the pillar of fire, but Exodus 14:19 and 23:20-23 let us know it was an angel, a representative of God. So “Yahweh” did go in front of Israel as represented by his angel protector. Similarly, if you read Judges 2:1-4, an angel speaks to the Israelites, but his speech is in the first person as if he were God Himself.

Elohim, “God” can also refer to human rulers, kings, prophets, and people who represent God in some way. Thus Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9, almost certainly refer to God’s representatives as Elohim, “God” (Exodus 22:28 likely does too. Psalm 82:1 is noteworthy because it uses Elohim twice; at the beginning of the verse to refer to the true God, and at the end of the verse to refer to rulers and people who represent Him. The verse says, “Elohim [God] takes his stand in his own assembly. He judges in the midst of the Elohim [gods].” Furthermore, Psalm 82:6 says “You are Elohim [gods], all of you are children of the Most High.” As sons of the Most High, these rulers are qualified to be called Elohim, [gods]. Psalm 97:7 also calls rulers Elohim.

There are times when specific individuals are called Elohim, “God.” One example is Moses. In Exodus 7:1, God is speaking to Moses and says, “See, I have made thee God [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (Darby). Given the uniplural nature of Elohim, another translation is, “See, I have made you a god [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (BBE, KJV), but the fact is that Moses, who represents Elohim (“God”) can legitimately be called Elohim (“God”) in the biblical culture. Another example is when King Saul wanted to speak to the dead prophet Samuel and went to a woman who was a medium and necromancer (1 Samuel 28:7-15). When she conjured up “Samuel” (actually a demon impersonating Samuel), the woman said, “I see Elohim coming up from the ground” (1 Samuel 28:13). This is a good example of a person being called Elohim, and we could translate it “God” and understand the custom of God’s representatives being called “God” or a more easily understood translation for the English reader is simply, “a god” the woman saw “a god” coming up who she thought was Samuel.

Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, for Thomas to also refer to Jesus as “god” is certainly understandable. In contrast, to assert that Thomas said that Jesus was “God” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. As was noted above, in biblical times it was common to call God’s representatives “God” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples, such as when Jacob wrestled with “God” and it's clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4).

There simply is not a single thing which address the absence of the Greek article.

As I noted, even references to he who you would affirm as the one God appears in scripture without the article

 

[synergy]

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek philosophy, "logos" referred to the principle of order and knowledge. Philosophers like Heraclitus used it to describe the rational principle governing the cosmos. In the Hellenistic Jewish context, "logos" was associated with divine wisdom and the intermediary between God and the world.

John took that ancient Greek concept of Logos and applied it to the Uncreated Word of God Person who manifested Himself multiple times as a Deity Person in the Old Testament. Those were the OT Theophanies manifestations of the Preincarnate Christ. John says that same Deity Person took on flesh and walked the Earth as Jesus Christ in John chapter 1.

 

[TomL]

John took that ancient Greek concept of Logos and applied it to the Uncreated Word of God Person who manifested Himself multiple times as a Deity Person in the Old Testament. Those were the OT Theophanies manifestations of the Preincarnate Christ. John says that same Deity Person took on flesh and walked the Earth as Jesus Christ in John chapter 1.

Yes absolutely but he will not deal with them.

 

[synergy]

Yes absolutely but he will not deal with them.

I noticed that many times. He has selective vision even if you place facts right in front of his nose.

 

[TomL]

I noticed that many times. He has selective vision even if you place facts right in front of his nose.

Yep, absolutely true

 

[Peterlag]

John took that ancient Greek concept of Logos and applied it to the Uncreated Word of God Person who manifested Himself multiple times as a Deity Person in the Old Testament. Those were the OT Theophanies manifestations of the Preincarnate Christ. John says that same Deity Person took on flesh and walked the Earth as Jesus Christ in John chapter 1.

I disagree. Therefore I do not believe John saw or taught a trinity or that Jesus was God.

 

[Peterlag]

There simply is not a single thing which address the absence of the Greek article.

As I noted, even references to he who you would affirm as the one God appears in scripture without the article

I can't help you any further if you cannot see the data I have clearly posted. But let the record show that it is not that I do not respond. It's that you do not understand what I write.

 

[Peterlag]

No sorry Logos does not mean wisdom and scripture was posted showing a personal existence



Which you never address

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek philosophy, "logos" referred to the principle of order and knowledge. Philosophers like Heraclitus used it to describe the rational principle governing the cosmos. In the Hellenistic Jewish context, "logos" was associated with divine wisdom and the intermediary between God and the world.

Source: Strong's Lexicon
logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine

 

[TomL]

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek philosophy, "logos" referred to the principle of order and knowledge. Philosophers like Heraclitus used it to describe the rational principle governing the cosmos. In the Hellenistic Jewish context, "logos" was associated with divine wisdom and the intermediary between God and the world.

Source: Strong's Lexicon
logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine

Except we are using the bible

And the bible the New Testament introduces a personal Logos

We saw him in Phil 2:5-8 and Jude 1:5

additionally

John 17:5 (LEB) — 5 And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed.

John 8:58 (LEB) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!”

 

[TomL]

I can't help you any further if you cannot see the data I have clearly posted. But let the record show that it is not that I do not respond. It's that you do not understand what I write.

You ignored the point being addressed

The absence of the article does not necessitate an understanding of a god

 

[Peterlag]

You ignored the point being addressed

The absence of the article does not necessitate an understanding of a god

I will post it again...

The majority of the times Elohim occurs in the Bible, it refers to the true God. However, even a brief glance through a Hebrew concordance will show that many times it refers to false gods. Dozens of verses could be cited as examples, but a few are: “You must not have any other gods [Elohim] besides me” (Exodus 20:3); “You must not bow down to their gods [Elohim]” (Exodus 23:24); “Israel chose new gods [Elohim]” (Judges 5:8); and, “[Solomon’s] wives turned away his heart after other gods [Elohim]” (1 Kings 11:4). There are times when Elohim is used to refer to a specific pagan god: for example, Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:7), Chemosh (Judges 11:24), and Baal (1 Kings 18:24-27).

Elohim, “God” can also refer to angels or other spirit beings. One example is Psalm 8:5, which says God made mankind a little lower than Elohim. Given the flexible meaning of Elohim, the verse could be saying that God made mankind a little lower than He Himself, or it could be saying that He made mankind a little lower than his representatives in the spirit world, i.e., angels. Thankfully, the interpretation is not in doubt because the verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:7, which says “angels” letting us know that in Psalm 8:5, Elohim refers to God’s representatives, the angels. Thus Psalm 8:5 is an excellent example of how the New Testament clarifies our understanding of the Old Testament. Another example is Judges 13:22, where Manoah and his wife saw an angel, but exclaimed, “We have seen God [Elohim].” Their statement made perfect sense in the biblical culture because they saw God’s representative.

There are times when God’s representatives are called “God” (Elohim and even Yahweh!) when they represent God and speak on His behalf. This is referred to as “agency.” The essence of the principle of agency is: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” The principle of agency is well-attested by scholars and occurs quite a few times in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 16:13, even though Hagar was speaking to an angel, she referred to him as Yahweh and El (God). In Genesis 31:11 an angel speaks to Jacob, but in Genesis 31:13 he says, “I am the God [El] of Bethel.” In Genesis 32:28, 30 it seems Jacob is wrestling with God [Elohim], but we learn from Hosea 12:3-4 that it was an angel representing God. Another example is that Exodus 13:21 says “Yahweh” went before Israel in the pillar of fire, but Exodus 14:19 and 23:20-23 let us know it was an angel, a representative of God. So “Yahweh” did go in front of Israel as represented by his angel protector. Similarly, if you read Judges 2:1-4, an angel speaks to the Israelites, but his speech is in the first person as if he were God Himself.

Elohim, “God” can also refer to human rulers, kings, prophets, and people who represent God in some way. Thus Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9, almost certainly refer to God’s representatives as Elohim, “God” (Exodus 22:28 likely does too. Psalm 82:1 is noteworthy because it uses Elohim twice; at the beginning of the verse to refer to the true God, and at the end of the verse to refer to rulers and people who represent Him. The verse says, “Elohim [God] takes his stand in his own assembly. He judges in the midst of the Elohim [gods].” Furthermore, Psalm 82:6 says “You are Elohim [gods], all of you are children of the Most High.” As sons of the Most High, these rulers are qualified to be called Elohim, [gods]. Psalm 97:7 also calls rulers Elohim.

There are times when specific individuals are called Elohim, “God.” One example is Moses. In Exodus 7:1, God is speaking to Moses and says, “See, I have made thee God [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (Darby). Given the uniplural nature of Elohim, another translation is, “See, I have made you a god [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (BBE, KJV), but the fact is that Moses, who represents Elohim (“God”) can legitimately be called Elohim (“God”) in the biblical culture. Another example is when King Saul wanted to speak to the dead prophet Samuel and went to a woman who was a medium and necromancer (1 Samuel 28:7-15). When she conjured up “Samuel” (actually a demon impersonating Samuel), the woman said, “I see Elohim coming up from the ground” (1 Samuel 28:13). This is a good example of a person being called Elohim, and we could translate it “God” and understand the custom of God’s representatives being called “God” or a more easily understood translation for the English reader is simply, “a god” the woman saw “a god” coming up who she thought was Samuel.

Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, for Thomas to also refer to Jesus as “god” is certainly understandable. In contrast, to assert that Thomas said that Jesus was “God” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. As was noted above, in biblical times it was common to call God’s representatives “God” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples, such as when Jacob wrestled with “God” and it's clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4).

 

[Peterlag]

Except we are using the bible

And the bible the New Testament introduces a personal Logos

We saw him in Phil 2:5-8 and Jude 1:5

additionally

John 17:5 (LEB) — 5 And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed.

John 8:58 (LEB) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!”

Am I addressing John 8:58 with the following or no...

John 8:58
At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."

 

[TomL]

Am I addressing John 8:58 with the following or no...

John 8:58
At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."

Figuratively existed? That is not in the bible

John 8:58 (NASB95) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Your theology is not based upon scripture.

 

[TomL]

I will post it again...

The majority of the times Elohim occurs in the Bible, it refers to the true God. However, even a brief glance through a Hebrew concordance will show that many times it refers to false gods. Dozens of verses could be cited as examples, but a few are: “You must not have any other gods [Elohim] besides me” (Exodus 20:3); “You must not bow down to their gods [Elohim]” (Exodus 23:24); “Israel chose new gods [Elohim]” (Judges 5:8); and, “[Solomon’s] wives turned away his heart after other gods [Elohim]” (1 Kings 11:4). There are times when Elohim is used to refer to a specific pagan god: for example, Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:7), Chemosh (Judges 11:24), and Baal (1 Kings 18:24-27).

Elohim, “God” can also refer to angels or other spirit beings. One example is Psalm 8:5, which says God made mankind a little lower than Elohim. Given the flexible meaning of Elohim, the verse could be saying that God made mankind a little lower than He Himself, or it could be saying that He made mankind a little lower than his representatives in the spirit world, i.e., angels. Thankfully, the interpretation is not in doubt because the verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:7, which says “angels” letting us know that in Psalm 8:5, Elohim refers to God’s representatives, the angels. Thus Psalm 8:5 is an excellent example of how the New Testament clarifies our understanding of the Old Testament. Another example is Judges 13:22, where Manoah and his wife saw an angel, but exclaimed, “We have seen God [Elohim].” Their statement made perfect sense in the biblical culture because they saw God’s representative.

There are times when God’s representatives are called “God” (Elohim and even Yahweh!) when they represent God and speak on His behalf. This is referred to as “agency.” The essence of the principle of agency is: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” The principle of agency is well-attested by scholars and occurs quite a few times in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 16:13, even though Hagar was speaking to an angel, she referred to him as Yahweh and El (God). In Genesis 31:11 an angel speaks to Jacob, but in Genesis 31:13 he says, “I am the God [El] of Bethel.” In Genesis 32:28, 30 it seems Jacob is wrestling with God [Elohim], but we learn from Hosea 12:3-4 that it was an angel representing God. Another example is that Exodus 13:21 says “Yahweh” went before Israel in the pillar of fire, but Exodus 14:19 and 23:20-23 let us know it was an angel, a representative of God. So “Yahweh” did go in front of Israel as represented by his angel protector. Similarly, if you read Judges 2:1-4, an angel speaks to the Israelites, but his speech is in the first person as if he were God Himself.

Elohim, “God” can also refer to human rulers, kings, prophets, and people who represent God in some way. Thus Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9, almost certainly refer to God’s representatives as Elohim, “God” (Exodus 22:28 likely does too. Psalm 82:1 is noteworthy because it uses Elohim twice; at the beginning of the verse to refer to the true God, and at the end of the verse to refer to rulers and people who represent Him. The verse says, “Elohim [God] takes his stand in his own assembly. He judges in the midst of the Elohim [gods].” Furthermore, Psalm 82:6 says “You are Elohim [gods], all of you are children of the Most High.” As sons of the Most High, these rulers are qualified to be called Elohim, [gods]. Psalm 97:7 also calls rulers Elohim.

There are times when specific individuals are called Elohim, “God.” One example is Moses. In Exodus 7:1, God is speaking to Moses and says, “See, I have made thee God [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (Darby). Given the uniplural nature of Elohim, another translation is, “See, I have made you a god [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (BBE, KJV), but the fact is that Moses, who represents Elohim (“God”) can legitimately be called Elohim (“God”) in the biblical culture. Another example is when King Saul wanted to speak to the dead prophet Samuel and went to a woman who was a medium and necromancer (1 Samuel 28:7-15). When she conjured up “Samuel” (actually a demon impersonating Samuel), the woman said, “I see Elohim coming up from the ground” (1 Samuel 28:13). This is a good example of a person being called Elohim, and we could translate it “God” and understand the custom of God’s representatives being called “God” or a more easily understood translation for the English reader is simply, “a god” the woman saw “a god” coming up who she thought was Samuel.

Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, for Thomas to also refer to Jesus as “god” is certainly understandable. In contrast, to assert that Thomas said that Jesus was “God” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. As was noted above, in biblical times it was common to call God’s representatives “God” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples, such as when Jacob wrestled with “God” and it's clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4).

Still nothing there which demands theos without an article be translated a god

You are ignoring that point

 

[Peterlag]

Still nothing there which demands theos without an article be translated a god

You are ignoring that point

No I'm not ignoring the point. You simply do not understand what I wrote which is written well and explains how the word "God" and "god" are used in Scripture and yes there is over 30 sections of Scripture listed as examples on how the words are used. You simply do what you always do which is not read what is written or not understand what is written or do not accept what is written and then accuse me of not responding. The deception or ignorance on your part is off the charts.

 

[Peterlag]

Figuratively existed? That is not in the bible

John 8:58 (NASB95) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Your theology is not based upon scripture.

The Bible is about the coming of Jesus Christ. Not about Abraham. So yes Jesus was before Abraham in the Scriptures. It does not mean he was alive before Abraham.

 

[Peterlag]

“but he who came down from heaven.” Something was said to have come from God or come from heaven if God was its source. For example, James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. The phrase “he who came down from heaven” in John 3:13 is to be understood in the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan, and then God directly fathered Jesus.