amazing grace
Active Member
I see where you have some examples but could you show us how it is applicable to the word and Jesus Christ?
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Peterlag
Active Member
There seems to be much confusion concerning the Comforter...
The spirit that all Christians have was first called the comforter by Jesus. It helps us if we are plugged into walking by the spirit.
John 14:16-17
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it."
The spirit that all Christians have was first called the comforter by Jesus. It helps us if we are plugged into walking by the spirit.
John 14:16-17
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it."
Runningman
Active Member
Right. If we look at the word of God throughout the Bible, it becomes clear pretty fast that John 1:1 is not a literal nor consistent translation. I personally believe the Word is a thing as 1John 1:1-3 says. There is also a lot of evidence that the Word is not literally God all around the Old and New Testament. I believe John 1 is poetic and and that Trinitarians translated the first verse wrong.
I guess you did not properly read the post where I presented it.
Here is more detail for unitarians to trample over -- in opposition to scripture and Jesus.
The logos refers to a message and also to wisdom and to its creative role via Prov 8. (The use in Prov 8 may first function as instruction in wisdom. But this develops further with Philo.) And Christians should best be aware of that chapter of Proverbs and how Philo developed it further so as to bring the concept of logos and wisdom to mind in the first century. John then uses these features inherent to logos to show that the logos-identified One , as pre-existing the incarnation of Jesus fits those qualities. Creation was done through him in a very critical role.
So logos contains all the aspects of the preexisting One in creation. Those actions under the metaleptic use of logos are what was done by the one who is incarnated per John 1. The recognition of the figure of speech gives a technical sense that has been understood instinctively by Christian readers.
It is interesting what we have discovered about John 1 and Proverbs 8. I owe some credit to you for asking a good question to help reveal this. You are right that I had not fleshed out the way metalepsis works in this passage.
Last edited:
amazing grace
Active Member
Yep, it is poetic literature and if you get the first verse wrong in the prologue - the rest will be wrong.
amazing grace
Active Member
Here is what you posted - I see nothing in the post about Proverbs 8 - God's wisdom.
I guess I did properly read the post where you presented it.
Now, you come along and add all of the below into the mix - because I mentioned God's wisdom in Proverbs 8.
Yeah, I'll take the credit for introducing you to God's wisdom although I do not believe it fits under this figure of speech metaleptic nor do I believe it has anything to do with preexistence. And of course you are stretching it to mean something it does not.
ALL of the above is NEW information about metalepsis ---- only to add God's wisdom into the mix.
So yeah, you may owe me some credit for introducing you to God's wisdom although I do not believe it fits under this figure of speech metaleptic nor do I believe it has anything to do with preexistence. But you are stretching it to mean something it does not.
What's strange is that this is the first you are just picking up on God's wisdom - I first mentioned back in October in Post #2052
I also mentioned it twice yesterday and once this morning and it must have spurred you into looking at 'God's wisdom' --- anyway you picked up on it and added it to your narrative. I don't believe it fits under this figure of speech metaleptic nor do I believe it has anything to do with preexistence. But I believe you are stretching it to mean something it does not.
God's word/God's wisdom were there in the beginning not as beings, persons, whatever you want to call it but as aspects of God which were personified as a 'she' in Proverbs and as a 'he' in the prologue of John. . . . Not literal people ----- not as a literal preexistence of anyone.
God's wisdom, being personified as 'she' is not a literal person - And like God's word - God's wisdom was there 'at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old' - Ages ago at the first, before the beginning of the earth, i.e. in the beginning God created through his spoken word and through is wise acts he established the heavens . . . .
If you cannot comprehend the John 1 with the recognition of metalepsis, you cannot understand anything about Christ. I have shared it, perhaps not in the best way, but I show why the logos is not "words of God."
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
The passage no longer has to be read as personification, as the errant unitarian has done. Jesus never has been a personification. That type of concept of John 1 just reminds us of the hyperliteralist incorrectly reads scripture. It sort of is like Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory who is unable to recognize stuff like sarcasm. I do admit "personification" is a bit further in figures of speech that we might expect of a unitarian. If you can advance to metonymy and metalepsis, you will find scripture in more depth.
Last edited:
The confusion is dominant among the unitarians
amazing grace
Active Member
All I asked for was an example of how it is applicable to the word and Jesus Christ. . . The problem is that figure is not being used in John 1.
Yes, please!
What scholar said the passage no longer has to be read as personification----where did you get that information?
Jesus is not being personified because Jesus is not the subject - the word is the subject. The word is the personification of God's creative and powerful speech . . .HE personifies the word which was with God in the beginning.
He was in the beginning with God. - the word was in the beginning with God reiterating John 1:1b
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . the word was the agent through which God is doing the creating - In the beginning . . . . And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And it was so., etc.
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Ps. 33:6]
It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. [Jeremiah 10:12]
God's creative speech and wisdom that was in the beginning with God by which God created all things. It is God's word, God's speech, God's wisdom that express who God is and this word/wisdom became flesh ---- the only Son from the Father, Jesus Christ who fully reflected who His God and Father was.
You can read this #logos-from-philo-of-alexandria-to-st-john-the-apostle-concept-of-logos
I skimmed through it and a little on the previous entry on the website.
As I understand it, Philo merged Jewish concepts with Greek concepts to present the logos as a bridge to the Greek language world. Underlying this bridge and discussion of logos is the role of wisdom in Proverb 8. So Philo provided the logos as a concept by of a created one {perhaps that we can see has Jesus eternally a Son of God but the same God too} and as creator of all things that came into being.
That article shows "The logos then becomes a manifestation of God’s thinking-acting. For Philo, then, the eternal Logos is one and the same with God’s Word." The designation of logos encompasses this divine operation and interaction with God built upon much congruence with Greek thought, but not subservient to Greek philosophy. This concept of Philo builds upon Proverbs 8, which God appears to have planned for the purpose of Philo's work and then of John 1.
This logos that was abstract and not identified with any clear divinity or aid to God is taken up John. The term logos carries with it the significance of creation and divinity yet without an actor in mind to do this. It is not yet equated to a person. So John begins to take the abstract concepts of logos and show the pre-existence (or eternal existence) of the One whom the attribute of logos applies metalyptically. We see that the One who was with God became flesh among humanity that John shows is Jesus.
Certainly, this does not fit under hyperliteralist interpretations and thus will not be recognized by unitarians.
How can verse 5 contradict verse 3? It doesn't. In your reasoning its contradicting.
You tell me how you interpret verse 5 if this does not speak of pre-existence with God. it is the unitarian concept that leaves a contradiction.
Heb 1:4 i meant--So he has become( meaning not before this)better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs))))---means he is equal to the angels, the name God gave him as a mortal makes him better than them.
Psalm 45:7-- ( speaking of Jesus) you have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness, that is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your (companions( partners) = angels.
I know 100% Jesus was with God-created direct first and last=only begotten) then Jehovah created all other things -THROUGH-( John 1:3-Col 1:16) the one who was beside him( Gods master worker) and speaks about creation at Prov 8:22-30= the firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15)--You think US( Gen 1:26) created but fail to see verse 27-HE ( not us) created) and Prov 8:27-28) HE created. He ( YHVH(Jehovah) created all things. Jesus-Gods master worker, built it all. Jehovah( architect) Jesus( builder).
I cannot follow this very well. I do not see what this reflects about John 17:5. Nor can I figure out any other clear point.
dwight92070
Active Member
Jesus is clearly God in the flesh. John 1:1 and 14. No doubt whatever.
Right. I think the unitarians like to say God became human, as if God no longer is a god. That is how desperate their arguments get. I check out passages they use and the message is not they way they twist it.
dwight92070
Active Member
All declarations of the Deity of Jesus are correct.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You can to make this into anything you want. It is what it actually is.
Evil men hide behind their silence. You will not say certain things because you know what they equal. That in itself if evil. You do it all the time. You're still evil.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Being made like a man isn't difficult. Do you remember talking about God making children to Abraham from stones?
You seem to value what you are. You shouldn't. Ashes and Dust.
Did Jesus become "ashes and dust"?
Runningman
Active Member
Who is equal? Scripture demonstrates seven ways to Sunday that Jesus and God are not equals. There are no verses that say God and Jesus are equal. Now your pronounced judgement comes back on your own head as always. You are entirely silence about Jesus not possessing equality with God.
