All Claims of The Son's Deity

[mikesw]

One thing I have learned over the years which is not an easy discipline is to read any passage as if its the first time you have read the passage with fresh eyes and no presuppositions. You would be surprised to see the ways God will reveal His truth. You will discover things you have not seen or known before. There are so many facets to scripture like looking at a beautiful diamond seeing its many facets from the light shining through it.

For example I was a calvinist for over 4 decades and once I began to question those beliefs God opened up His word in new ways to me. Once I abandoned those calvinist presuppositions I saw God in a much more glorious way and the floodgates opened up and scripture came "alive" again, new and fresh on a daily basis. I was discovering things about God in new ways. I saw the Trinity differently than I had before but in a much better, harmonious way.

One thing that helps in the opposite sense is that you get familiar with a book in the scriptures but then can do an overview reading (sketchedly) to start viewing individual passages (remembered or instinctively) within the broader context.

Something I heard as advice to students of theology (especially for pastor roles) is read the text without expecting to find something new. Sure, there is a precaution to avoid novelty for the sake of novelty. But scripture is deep and passages are misunderstood. So deeper divining is important. But people have to be careful of reading it wrong and fighting for that misunderstanding.

 

[amazing grace]

I am not sure how you think Jesus is the Son of God if he is not the son of God in your interpretation. A human being conceived has a mother and a father. That hopefully is not beyond your understanding of biology. Joseph is not the biological father. God has replaced that by miraculous intervention but still is the father here.

You read that passage but you are dull of hearing. It is God's action here as fathering the one born here. Since God has miraculously fathered the child. The child is of his essence and of the mother's.

Yes, a human being conceived has a mother and a father ----- in the case of Jesus, his Father is God.
Correct, Joseph is not the biological father.
God did replace the natural procreation process by a miraculous conception within Mary's womb.
My question to you would be - how did the child GET God's essence?
Mary carried the egg - God miraculously through His creative power caused the egg to be impregnated.
Yes, God's actions here . . . created Jesus in the womb of Mary.

Oops. Maybe I used "conceived" in the wrong sense. Thanks for reminding me.

We are not talking about God coming into existence in the essence of godness. But this is a new aspect of One already distinct but in that Oneness of God taking on humanity. You keep treating this like modalism instead of the Christian insight into the deeper insight of who God is.

I am not speaking of Modalism. No, what the Trinity doctrine teaches is that God came in the flesh, God came as a human being, i.e. the incarnation. Wouldn't He have had to become flesh by way of Mary's conception which would basically be God conceiving God? or did He wait until Jesus was born then entered the child? Just exactly when did Jesus become God - at conception or birth?

 

[mikesw]

Yes, a human being conceived has a mother and a father ----- in the case of Jesus, his Father is God.
Correct, Joseph is not the biological father.
God did replace the natural procreation process by a miraculous conception within Mary's womb.
My question to you would be - how did the child GET God's essence?
Mary carried the egg - God miraculously through His creative power caused the egg to be impregnated.
Yes, God's actions here . . . created Jesus in the womb of Mary.

The divine one who is distinct from the Father is that essence that is what makes the human son also continuing with his divine Spirit. How did God do that? Well. It is not too hard since God created all things anyhow. You do not have to know the physiology or this to accept what God can do.

I am not speaking of Modalism. No, what the Trinity doctrine teaches is that God came in the flesh, God came as a human being, i.e. the incarnation. Wouldn't He have had to become flesh by way of Mary's conception which would basically be God conceiving God?

You view this as creating a new god. So you are trying to envision this as polytheism.

or did He wait until Jesus was born then entered the child? Just exactly when did Jesus become God - at conception or birth?

I do not see this at birth because it seems it is of Greco-Roman concepts that a soul enters at birth. It is typical that the fetus from inception is both human and the second One of the Trinity. I do not see how this diminishes what God can do.

Furthermore, we learn that Jesus did not become God at some point in time. That is a big misconception if someone tries to view it in that fashion. His divine existence has always existed. It just was not in the flesh until coming as Jesus.

I can see that you are trying to overthink this as if trying to understand exactly where and how a miracle happened -- such as giving a blind man his sight with spittle.

 

[Runningman]

the same place the Father in 1 Cor 8:6

No. The one God is the Father. Jesus is never called the one and/or only God in all of Scripture.

 

[mikesw]

No. The one God is the Father. Jesus is never called the one and/or only God in all of Scripture.

nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God. In fact Jesus had God's glory before the world was (John 17:5). But the unitarian has selective memory and forgets that verse right near reminding of the only true God.
Maybe we could send some signal to your brain every day to remind you of John 17:5.

 

[civic]

nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God. In fact Jesus had God's glory before the world was (John 17:5). But the unitarian has selective memory and forgets that verse right near reminding of the only true God.

Amen

 

[Runningman]

nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God. In fact Jesus had God's glory before the world was (John 17:5). But the unitarian has selective memory and forgets that verse right near reminding of the only true God.
Maybe we could send some signal to your brain every day to remind you of John 17:5.

Oh Mike, you know better than that. You seem like such a smart guy sometimes and then you run off and resort to one of the most common fallacies ever. Are you really going to use the "argument from silence" fallacy? I.e., "nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God." This is classic, textbook, error.

 

[amazing grace]

Wow. weaseling around the meaning. very clever.
No one said Jesus is not human. You attempt a strawman here or just are confused. "he did not have 'sinful flesh' yet'" but then was "sinless and thus only in the 'likeness of sinful flesh.'"
None of this explanation by Paul would be needed if Jesus was merely human.

I see no weaseling - Adam was created 'in the flesh' yet he sinned and flesh became 'sinful flesh' . . .
Therefore, Jesus shared our flesh - like any other human being - YET WITHOUT SIN, i.e. sinless and thus only in 'the likeness of sinful flesh'.
You must be full of hearing or full of understanding. Paul knew exactly who Jesus was - a man like Adam yet without sin.

Why not put the whole of John 1 into a letter to Christians who already knew Christ?
Oh and what undoubtedly can be shown to be wrong when you say "nothing about God coming to earth."

Mal 3:1-6 (ebible.org WEB)
1 “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me! The Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple. Behold, the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, is coming!” says Yahweh of Armies.

Messenger: John the Baptist. The Lord (Jesus, the promised Messiah) whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. Yahweh is speaking

2 “But who can endure the day of his coming? And who will stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like launderers’ soap;

the day of his coming is speaking of the last days - the day of the Lord.

3 and he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer to Yahweh offerings in righteousness.

He (Jesus) will sit as a refiner an purifier of silver . . . he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them as gold and silver --- they shall offer Yahweh offerings in righteousness.

4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasant to Yahweh as in the days of old and as in ancient years.
5 I will come near to you to judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against the perjurers, and against those who oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and who deprive the foreigner of justice, and don’t fear me,” says Yahweh of Armies.

“I am coming to put you on trial” (NJB), “I shall appear before you in court” (REB); see also NIV2011, NLT). I am coming to judge you . . . Yahweh will come against the people in judgment through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, [John 5:22]

6 “For I, Yahweh, don’t change; therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed. 7 From the days of your fathers you have turned away from my ordinances and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says Yahweh of Armies. “But you say, ‘How shall we return?

God had made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - He will not change from that covenant but will see it through.
Return to me, and I will return to you . . . . Repent - return to my ordinances and keep them - and I will return to you.

Jesus comes as the messenger of the covenant and comes in judgment. Then we see he comes near them in judgment as Yahweh of Armies.

John the Baptist comes as the messenger and Jesus comes in judgment . . . He is behind what the Son judges . . . Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. [John 8:16]

 

[praise_yeshua]

Oh Mike, you know better than that. You seem like such a smart guy sometimes and then you run off and resort to one of the most common fallacies ever. Are you really going to use the "argument from silence" fallacy? I.e., "nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God." This is classic, textbook, error.

FYI. An "argument from silence" isn't about rejecting a specific word. This is a classic, textbook, error.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I see no weaseling - Adam was created 'in the flesh' yet he sinned and flesh became 'sinful flesh' . . .
Therefore, Jesus shared our flesh - like any other human being - YET WITHOUT SIN, i.e. sinless and thus only in 'the likeness of sinful flesh'.
You must be full of hearing or full of understanding. Paul knew exactly who Jesus was - a man like Adam yet without sin.

Messenger: John the Baptist. The Lord (Jesus, the promised Messiah) whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. Yahweh is speaking

the day of his coming is speaking of the last days - the day of the Lord.

He (Jesus) will sit as a refiner an purifier of silver . . . he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them as gold and silver --- they shall offer Yahweh offerings in righteousness.

“I am coming to put you on trial” (NJB), “I shall appear before you in court” (REB); see also NIV2011, NLT). I am coming to judge you . . . Yahweh will come against the people in judgment through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, [John 5:22]

God had made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and He will see that covenant take place
Return to me, and I will return to you . . . . Repent - return to my ordinances and keep them - and I will return to you.

A Jew that denies Messiah. How typical.

You do realize all you Unitarians in this forum that you really should embrace Judaism and not call yourself CHRISTIANS.....

If you call yourself a Christian, you're an idolater by your own standards. .

 

[praise_yeshua]

Oh Mike, you know better than that. You seem like such a smart guy sometimes and then you run off and resort to one of the most common fallacies ever. Are you really going to use the "argument from silence" fallacy? I.e., "nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God." This is classic, textbook, error.

Who else is like the Son?

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Son didn't create all things. The Bible never says he did. Waiting for what you're going to pull out of your bag of tricks next.

Were you there?

Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.

 

[mikesw]

Oh Mike, you know better than that. You seem like such a smart guy sometimes and then you run off and resort to one of the most common fallacies ever. Are you really going to use the "argument from silence" fallacy? I.e., "nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not One within that only true God." This is classic, textbook, error.

You would need something blatant like that to have scripture deny who Jesus is. Obviously Jesus in pre-existence had full glory of God. But somehow you distort that into something meaningless and unconvincing.

 

[mikesw]

I see no weaseling - Adam was created 'in the flesh' yet he sinned and flesh became 'sinful flesh' . . .
Therefore, Jesus shared our flesh - like any other human being - YET WITHOUT SIN, i.e. sinless and thus only in 'the likeness of sinful flesh'.
You must be full of hearing or full of understanding. Paul knew exactly who Jesus was - a man like Adam yet without sin.

Must you be reminded constantly that Paul would not have to say speak in this fashion if Jesus were just a sinless human? To say what you want to twist this to, Paul would write: God birthed a typical man who though who remained sinless and died somehow to condemn sin. You constantly deny who Jesus is

Messenger: John the Baptist. The Lord (Jesus, the promised Messiah) whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. Yahweh is speaking

the day of his coming is speaking of the last days - the day of the Lord.

He (Jesus) will sit as a refiner an purifier of silver . . . he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them as gold and silver --- they shall offer Yahweh offerings in righteousness.

“I am coming to put you on trial” (NJB), “I shall appear before you in court” (REB); see also NIV2011, NLT). I am coming to judge you . . . Yahweh will come against the people in judgment through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, [John 5:22]

God had made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - He will not change from that covenant but will see it through.
Return to me, and I will return to you . . . . Repent - return to my ordinances and keep them - and I will return to you.

John the Baptist comes as the messenger and Jesus comes in judgment . . . He is behind what the Son judges . . . Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. [John 8:16]

That Jesus who came also is the one who speaks as Yahweh in verse 5:
Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers "

You deny that because you deny who Jesus is.

 

[Runningman]

You would need something blatant like that to have scripture deny who Jesus is. Obviously Jesus in pre-existence had full glory of God. But somehow you distort that into something meaningless and unconvincing.

Your argument is the same thing anyone can do. You brush aside the witness of Scripture in exchange for wishful thinking, hoping that just because it wasn't denied you can cling on by a thread that the trinity was there. Sorry, but no one in the Bible believed in a trinity god. The idea is entirely pagan to Judeo-Christian theology. You've been greatly deceived.

It is my understanding that you are actually an apostate Christian, correct? You were Unitarian then converted to trinitarianism. Repentance is only one step away, but you need to get through Mike first. You're the only person standing in your way.

 

[mikesw]

Your argument is the same thing anyone can do. You brush aside the witness of Scripture in exchange for wishful thinking, hoping that just because it wasn't denied you can cling on by a thread that the trinity was there. Sorry, but no one in the Bible believed in a trinity god. The idea is entirely pagan to Judeo-Christian theology. You've been greatly deceived.

It is my understanding that you are actually an apostate Christian, correct? You were Unitarian then converted to trinitarianism. Repentance is only one step away, but you need to get through Mike first. You're the only person standing in your way.

so you reject my wishful thinking that scripture is accurate about its testimony of the Triune God? That is not a very godly request of anyone. Then you call scripture to be pagan-influenced in what it shares about God. That is mocking God.

 

[Runningman]

so you reject my wishful thinking that scripture is accurate about its testimony of the Triune God? That is not a very godly request of anyone. Then you call scripture to be pagan-influenced in what it shares about God. That is mocking God.

I don't deal in wishful thinking as I am pleased to agree with God, Jesus, and the apostles about what the truth about God is. I wouldn't dare put words in their mouth like you do and construct a god of my own fantasy. That's why you are not a Christian anymore.

 

[mikesw]

I don't deal in wishful thinking as I am pleased to agree with God, Jesus, and the apostles about what the truth about God is. I wouldn't dare put words in their mouth like you do and construct a god of my own fantasy. That's why you are not a Christian anymore.

huh? I'm not a Christian for accepting what made me a Christian. That sounds as convoluted as everything else you say.

 

[Keiw1]

I see you like to make the same faulty arguments as common among
the unitarians

Bible facts is what i shared.

 

[mikesw]

Bible facts is what i shared.

This is half true. You share John 17:3 without recognizing verse 5. So the errors of JWs continues.