Peterlag
Active Member
I just told you these words are not in Scripture and you come back with they are God's vocabulary.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
you fail in interpretation. I am sharing that the vocabulary to speak about God goes beyond words in the Bible while fully representing the concepts originating in the Bible.
Runningman
Active Member
Imagine a trinitarian agreeing to enter a debate with the rule they aren't allowed to add to nor take away from the Bible. They wouldn't have any trinity to talk about.
Right. Imagine getting in a Grand Prix race and saying you can participate but you cannot fill your car with gasoline.
Runningman
Active Member
It would be priceless watching you all struggling to find any supporting verses that mention an incarnation or God as a trinity.
It would be because you trample over the evidence such that scripture is no longer authoritative for you.
Peterlag
Active Member
It would be struggling if they would mention these. Last time I posted it they mentioned only the first one and said see it's wrong...
52 Reasons why Jesus is not God...
1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.
3.) The idea that "the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together make one God" is not found in Scripture.
4.) God is spirit, and Jesus said he was not a spirit even after his resurrection (Luke 24:39).
5.) Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.
6.) God was not born, but is eternal.
7.) Romans 5:19 says a man had to pay for the sins of mankind.
8.) The man Jesus is the mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5).
9.) Jesus called the Father "my God" both before and after his resurrection.
10.) Jesus said my Father is greater than I (John 14:28).
11.) It was God that made Jesus "Lord" (Acts 2:36).
12.) Jesus would have already been the Lord if he was God.
13.) In the future Jesus will be subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28).
14.) Jesus was "sanctified" by God. God does not need to be sanctified.
15.) There is only one who is good and that is God (Luke 18:19).
16.) God is greater than Christ (1 Corinthians 3:23).
17.) It was God who did miracles and wonders through Christ.
18.) Christ was given all authority. He would have already had all authority if he were God (Matthew 28:18).
19.) The phrase "Deity" never appears in the Bible, nor is Christ ever called "Deity."
20.) Ephesians 4:5 says there is one Lord.
21.) 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is one God.
22.) Jesus called the Father the only God (John 5:44).
23.) Christ made a distinction between speaking against him and the Holy Spirit.
24.) Christ said his doctrine was not his own (John 7:16).
25.) Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42).
26.) Jesus counted himself and his Father as two (John 8:17).
27.) The Bible always portrays God and Christ as two separate beings.
28.) The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is an "heir" of God (Romans 8:7).
29.) Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise.
30.) Jesus had limited knowledge (mark 13:32).
31.) God made Jesus perfect through suffering (Hebrews 2:10).
32.) Jesus received the holy spirit at his baptism. He would have already had it if he were God.
33.) Jesus was tempted. God cannot be tempted.
34.) Angels ministered and strengthened Jesus. God does not need to be strengthened.
35.) Jesus died. God cannot die.
36.) Jesus says we are his brothers. The Bible never says or even hints that we are brothers of God.
37.) We are told to do greater works than Jesus. Nobody can do greater works than God.
38.) Jesus would have already had "all authority" if he were God and would not need to be given “all authority” (Matthew 28:18).
39.) Jesus would have already had “a name above every name” if he were God and would not need to be given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
40.) Jesus would have already had "glory" if he were God and would not need to be given "glory" (John 17:22, 24).
41.) Jesus would have already been "appointed" if he were God and would not need to be “appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).
42.) Jesus was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
43.) Jesus was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
44.) Jesus was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected him (Acts 13:30).
45.) Jesus was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
46.) Jesus was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
47.) Jesus was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).
48.) Jesus is called the "Son of God" more than 50 times. Not once is he called "God the Son."
49.) The apostles also taught Jesus was a man (Act 2:22).
50.) The Bible teaches God is the “head” of Christ (Corinthians 11:3).
51.) The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible.
52.) There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
Runningman
Active Member
People who profess to be Bible scholars and theologians being made mute by the Bible is ironic to say they least. You know, if the Bible explicitly described trinitarianism the way it literally describes Unitarianism you would be parading it all over the place. You only dislike what the Bible literally says because it doesn't help you. So you all made your own rules, vocabulary, definitions, philosophy, etc.
I am parading it all over the place. You just do not listen to the full testimony of scripture.
I do not like hyperliteralists who take a few verses they like while denying the testimony of all the other passages and witnesses
haha. Mr. Unitarian Pocket Dictionary salesman. You deny English so you can control the language as is done in mind control cults.
If a unitarian can start arguing decent, respectable arguments against the passages that show the divinity of Christ and the Triune God, then he has a chance of changing minds here. But the arguments likely have to be in a book form. There is a guy at theos.org who was writing a book. I have no idea what arguments he would have though. The best way would be to work with a good Trinitarian book and address issues in it.
I'm not sure what unitarians are trying to do if they are unwilling to form a broad, sufficient argument
I'm not sure what unitarians are trying to do if they are unwilling to form a broad, sufficient argument
Runningman
Active Member
I am not trying to be funny when I say this, but you have no parade. You have arguments and attempt to persuade but you don't have anything from the Bible. Ultimately it comes down to you just sharing your opinions and I am happy to discuss those opinions with you, but Trinitariansm as a theology is not explicitly formalized in the Bible, that's just being honest.
Do you believe all of the verses in the Bible should only enhance each other without contradiction?
You have encountered contradiction to your view but you totally disregard the passages.
Runningman
Active Member
I believe the Bible is in harmony. The Father is called Lord, Jesus is called Lord, and others are also called Lord. Others are also called god or God in the Bible who are not actually God, Moses is one example of that as well. Jesus has a Lord who sent him and a Savior who resurrected him, just like the rest of us who need God to save us. We can all be sons of God and we're all sons of man. There are few things that are unique to Jesus in the Bible that other humans cannot share with him.
Actually, if you want the truth about Jesus, it's been difficult wresting you all away from your heresies, but Jesus is the example of what we are supposed to be like. Sometimes I try a different angle, but I feel you are at the point of blindly rejecting any truth I put in front of you, but I must try any way. Do you believe that Jesus is our example or is that too literal?
what are you trying to do if you are not ready to fully defend the unitarian view against the arguments of the Triune God?
Runningman
Active Member
As far as I know, no one has asked me to explain why I believe what I do. It's just been a bunch of back and forth with most folks here. Do you have a question about what I believe and why?
It is not an opinion of the translator because the Greek that renders the same as "the only begotten God" that refers to Jesus as God, is not a translation, it is in Greek.
John 1:18 θεονG2316 N-ASM ουδειςG3762 A-NSM-N εωρακενG3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT πωποτεG4455 ADV μονογενηςG3439 A-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM ωνG1510 V-PAP-NSM ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κολπονG2859 N-ASM τουG3588 T-GSM πατροςG3962 N-GSM εκεινοςG1565 D-NSM εξηγησατοG1834 V-ADI-3S
No not really. Well maybe psychological ones that led you to that path. I figure you just sought the anti-trinitarian writings when you found that people in your earlier church crowd were not ready to explain the details of the Triune God to you.
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Runningman
Active Member
No one can explain the trinity using Scripture.
There are various inklings of people to return to the roots of Christianity. Some people try to return to Acts 2 Spirit gifts. Some run to Hebrew language and naming. Others take on Jewish customs as if that is spiritual. We find people who go to Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholicism. I am guessing your idea is that you think you are returning to purity of doctrine by avoiding discussions beyond the second century.
Runningman
Active Member
What you refer to as "orthodox Trinitarianism" didn't form until the 4th century. It's not formalized in Scripture, much like the other heresies are not formalized in Scripture. For example, the Bible doesn't describe God as a trinity, God is a single person known as the Father in Scripture. I've proved it repeatedly.
