Runningman
Active Member
So now we have proven that YHWH is the Father only, the only Creator, and the only true God. That's Scripture. Angels of God are not God.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
See again! You misinterpret what I said because you misinterpret scripture overall. The point you are rejecting has been proven before. God is the Angel in Hosea
Hos 12:3-5
In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name.
You get so busy denying Jesus that you cannot read the scripture clearly
Runningman
Active Member
Scriptural evidence is that there is no other God other than the Father. I am not trying to interpret anything you say at this point. I am simply preaching. You're free to reply if you wish.
Again you are arguing against a polytheistic view. You cannot win an argument by using a view that someone does not hold.
I typed this too late for your response:
The point you are rejecting has been proven before. God is the Angel in Hosea
Hos 12:3-5
In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name.
You get so busy denying Jesus that you cannot read the scripture clearly
Runningman
Active Member
The trinity is polytheism. "Three person who are one god" or "God was with God" is polytheism. That's actually a big reason why you lose any credibility regarding the trinity.
The angel in Hosea 12:3-5 isn't YHWH and besides the angel lost the wrestling match with Jacob. It's ludicrous that you think YHWH would be dominated in a wrestling match by a mere human. You misunderstand the concept agency and authority that God's messengers carry and act on in God's name without themselves being YHWH.
That is so incredible that you miss the direct wording in Hosea 12:3-5. Cannot help you until your eyes are opened.
You have to modify the passage with the word "agent" so that you can deny the Angel of the Lord. "Agent" should not even be in your Unitarian Pocket Dictionary.
Runningman
Active Member
wow. Jacob wrestled with YHWH and won? You sure about that? Read it again Mike.
Peterlag
Active Member
Boy do we have problems in our current Christian time.
Here are the oldest Bibles...
Geneva Bible of 1587
Now here lies the problem... we now have trinity Bibles that say something
completely different. Here's 19 of them...
New International Version
King James Bible
Holman Christian Standard Bible
only-begotten Son
Here are the oldest Bibles...
Geneva Bible of 1587
onely begotten Sonne
Bishops' Bible of 1568
onely begotten sonne
Coverdale Bible of 1535
onely begotte sonne
Tyndale Bible of 1526
only begotte sonne
Here's two Catholic Bibles that probably have some age to them...
Douay-Rheims BibleHere's two Catholic Bibles that probably have some age to them...
only begotten Son
Catholic Public Domain Version
only-begotten Son
Now here lies the problem... we now have trinity Bibles that say something
completely different. Here's 19 of them...
New International Version
only Son, who is himself God
New Living Translation
unique One, who is himself God
English Standard Version
only God
Berean Standard Bible
only Son, who is Himself God
Berean Literal Bible
only begotten God
NASB 1995
only begotten God
NASB 1977
only begotten God
Legacy Standard Bible
only begotten God
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Only Begotten God
Amplified Bible
only begotten God
Christian Standard Bible
only Son, who is himself God
Contemporary English Version
only Son, who is truly God
Good News Translation
only Son, who is the same as God
International Standard Version
The unique God
NET Bible
only one, himself God
Literal Standard Version
only begotten God
Berean Literal Bible
only begotten God
New American Bible
only Son, God
New Revised Standard Version
God the only Son
And here's a list of 22 not counting the 6 I listed
above that are the oldest English non-trinity Bibles...
NASB 1995
only begotten God
NASB 1977
only begotten God
Legacy Standard Bible
only begotten God
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Only Begotten God
Amplified Bible
only begotten God
Christian Standard Bible
only Son, who is himself God
Contemporary English Version
only Son, who is truly God
Good News Translation
only Son, who is the same as God
International Standard Version
The unique God
NET Bible
only one, himself God
Literal Standard Version
only begotten God
Berean Literal Bible
only begotten God
New American Bible
only Son, God
New Revised Standard Version
God the only Son
And here's a list of 22 not counting the 6 I listed
above that are the oldest English non-trinity Bibles...
King James Bible
only begotten Son
New King James Version
only begotten Son
New American Standard Bible
only Son
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Only Son
American Standard Version
only begotten Son
English Revised Version
only begotten Son
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God's only Son
New Heart English Bible
The only Son
Webster's Bible Translation
only begotten Son
Weymouth New Testament
only Son
Majority Standard Bible
only Son
World English Bible
only born Son
Young's Literal Translation
only begotten Son
Smith's Literal Translation
only born Son
Lamsa Bible
firstborn of God
Anderson New Testament
only begotten Son
Godbey New Testament
only begotten Son
Haweis New Testament
only begotten Son
Mace New Testament
only begotten son
Weymouth New Testament
only Son
Worrell New Testament
only begotten Son
Worsley New Testament
only-begotten Son
you confirm your blindness. That was described as struggling with God. that is why people cannot trust your interpretations.
In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
And in his maturity he contended with God.
4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;
You are partly right that the Angel as Yahweh is distinguished from the Yahweh that sends him. But both are Yahweh.
No problems in reality. The Son is God incarnate. Thanks for another post that says nothing.
Peterlag
Active Member
Do you have a verse that says "the son is God Incarnate?" Or is this just another post of yours that says nothing?
I guess you are suggesting God was walking in the midst of Judea without a body. You are just showing hyperliteralist tendencies to demand God provide more specific wording for you to reject it instead of conveying it they way he decided to teach us.
Peterlag
Active Member
No verse. I'm not surprised.
You are looking for more scriptures for you to reject?
Runningman
Active Member
Contended with God's angel is effectually contending with God's authority. God isn't an angel though nor the angel of the Lord. I see you know absolutely nothing about agency.
Scripture teaches the angel of the Lord is not the Lord. They are speaking to one another and it should be clear to any rational person that God isn't His own messenger.
Zechariah
12Then the angel of the Lord said, ‘O Lord of hosts, how long will you have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which you have been angry these seventy years?’ 13And the Lord answered gracious and comforting words to the angel who talked with me.
Are you going to just confirm that the Angel is Yahweh or do you have an argument to make? It is noted how you avoid the Hosea 12 passage and seek something to deny Jesus again.
Are we to assume you are being deceptive by not pointing out that the continuation of this encounter specifically shows this Angel to be Yahweh?
Zeph 1:20 Then the LORD showed me four craftsmen.
The Angel is distinct but also the same as Yahweh.
Runningman
Active Member
Scripture teaches the angel of the Lord is not the Lord. They are speaking to one another and it should be clear to any rational person that God isn't His own messenger.
Zechariah
12Then the angel of the Lord said, ‘O Lord of hosts, how long will you have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which you have been angry these seventy years?’ 13And the Lord answered gracious and comforting words to the angel who talked with me.
You must have an abridged bible so you do not have to look at passages that contradict your view. You just pretended that verse 20 was not in the scripture. There is no argument from you but only skipping verses you do not like because they testify against
you.
Edited: I presume if you had an argument against verse 20, you would have shared that already.
Runningman
Active Member
Zechariah 1:12,13 is an explicit example of God not being the angel of the Lord. Deal with it.
I take that as further confirmation that you cannot explain verse 20. It continues to testify against your view.
Zechariah 1:20 (NASB95)
20Then the LORD showed me four craftsmen.
The Angel of the Lord now is the directly the Yahweh who is showing Zechariah these things.
