Abel's Total Depravity?????

[praise_yeshua]

Abel was murdered.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin entered this world through Adam but Abel didn't die because of his own sin. He died because of the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain.

Now tell me how I'm wrong. The only way I can be possibly be wrong is to show me the sin of Abel. Anyone care to detail Abel's sin?

 

[TibiasDad]

Abel was murdered.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin entered this world through Adam but Abel didn't die because of his own sin. He died because of the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain.

Now tell me how I'm wrong. The only way I can be possibly be wrong is to show me the sin of Abel. Anyone care to detail Abel's sin?

The premise to your question is faulty. His physical death has no relationship to whether he sinned or not.

You are correct that physical death itself is the result of Adam’s sin, and the direct cause of Abel’s death was Cain’s sinful actions, but this has no bearing on whether Abel never sinned.

Romans 5 says “12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man…18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people…”

Condemnation is not just physical death, but eventual spiritual death, permanent separation from God and loss of hope. If Abel was a person, then the sin that entered the world through his father brought Cain and Abel the condemnation that accompanied his sin. The whole human race was estranged from God, put at enmity with him, due to Adam’s sin. Thus, all men are born condemned and, as Paul says, “under the power of sin.”- a power that cannot be ultimately overcome by human effort. We all will sin, sooner rather than later. Abel was no different from us!


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

The premise to your question is faulty. His physical death has no relationship to whether he sinned or not.

Then Abel was destined to sin. My premise is just fine.

You are correct that physical death itself is the result of Adam’s sin, and the direct cause of Abel’s death was Cain’s sinful actions, but this has no bearing on whether Abel never sinned.

Abel didn't die from "natural causes".

Romans 5 says “12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man…18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people…”

Skipping deception from Calvinists/Arminians.......

See how he practices deception.

At the end of verse # 12 we read these words....

"for that all have sinned:" which he takes as condemnation of Abel personally sinning. Which he has repeatedly stated. Why leave it out here?

Deception. He is changing his argument because he knows he is failing.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression

The doctrine of Total Depravity requires personal sin.

Condemnation is not just physical death, but eventual spiritual death, permanent separation from God and loss of hope. If Abel was a person, then the sin that entered the world through his father brought Cain and Abel the condemnation that accompanied his sin. The whole human race was estranged from God, put at enmity with him, due to Adam’s sin. Thus, all men are born condemned and, as Paul says, “under the power of sin.”- a power that cannot be ultimately overcome by human effort. We all will sin, sooner rather than later. Abel was no different from us!


Doug

Notice his change.......

He goes from dealing with "natural death" so some mystical "spiritual death" when physical death is in focus. He is not alone. It is the cornerstone of "Reformed Theology". Just like a good Calvinist, he endlessly conflates physical death and some "spiritual death" that is "baked into" Reformed Theology.

Death...... Is Eternal life not the absence of death?

Christ partook of flesh. A flesh under the condemnation of death. That "flesh" wasn't some "super flesh" devoid of condemnation. It was the very seed of Mary. Every human being comes to know life through the seed of the women.

Christ died the Innocent for the Guilty. He that knew no sin.......

 

[TibiasDad]

My premise is just fine.

You haven’t demonstrated its validity, you’ve only assumed it as true.

Abel didn't die from "natural causes".

Didn’t say he did! Why don’t you deal with what I have said?

Skipping deception from Calvinists/Arminians.......

See how he practices deception.

Ad hominem comments…

At the end of verse # 12 we read these words....

"for that all have sinned:" which he takes as condemnation of Abel personally sinning. Which he has repeatedly stated. Why leave it out here?

Deception. He is changing his argument because he knows he is failing.

1) It was not left out intentionally or for subversive purposes.

2) I do not take “for all have sinned” to mean “condemnation of Abel personally sinning”, at least not in the Calvinistic sense. Ezekiel 18 teaches us that we are not condemned for our father’s sins, but only for our own sins. I do not believe that we all personally sinned in Adam. I believe because of Adam we are all born with an inclination to sin that we cannot subdue indefinitely. Thus, sinning is an inevitable consequence, sooner rather than later. We are not guilty personally because of this inclination, but we are not holy, and thus cannot be in relationship with God. Your accusation above is not my point of view.

3) Throwing around terms like “deception” is in itself deceptive. I’m not trying to deceive anyone, I’m just stating my opinion and the proofs thereof. That you disagree with my opinion doesn’t make me deceptive, or contriving in motive.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression

The doctrine of Total Depravity requires personal sin.

The Calvinist version of TD requires personal sin from birth, but not mine, nor is it my understanding of the Wesleyan point of view.

My interpretation of TD is that man has been corrupted by sin, and that corruption has affected every aspect of man’s capacities and turned their powers toward self serving, self protective motivations above all others. Thus, our nature is totally depraved, completely controlled by the power of sin, and save for grace, we would not have any sense of resistance to sin’s power over us.

Moreover, not sinning “after the similitude of Adam's transgression” means that there were no specific commands, like “Don’t eat of the middle tree in the garden” that Adam had. It doesn’t mean there was no sin. Cain obviously had a “command” to sacrifice in a certain manner which he disobeyed. God’s saying “if you do what is right” shows his knowledge of right and wrong was there. We all know rather instinctively that there are categories of good and bad, right and wrong.


Doug

 

[TedT]

Sin entered this world through Adam but Abel didn't die because of his own sin. He died because of the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain.

Now tell me how I'm wrong. The only way I can beh to a non-sinner? possibly be wrong is to show me the sin of Abel. Anyone care to detail Abel's sin?

Do I have to know what sin Abel chose to earn the wages of sin ie, death, to know that GOD who is loving and just would never bring suffering and death to anyone innocent of sin because someone else sinned?

 

[Obadiah]

Abel was murdered.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin entered this world through Adam but Abel didn't die because of his own sin. He died because of the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain.

Now tell me how I'm wrong. The only way I can be possibly be wrong is to show me the sin of Abel. Anyone care to detail Abel's sin?

I can't tell you you're wrong but I could add a little bit to the conversation. Able died because he was a victim of sin even if his brother hadn't killed him he would have died eventually from old age or any other member of things.

It doesn't surprise me what happened as the whole family lived in the fallen world.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I can't tell you you're wrong but I could add a little bit to the conversation. Able died because he was a victim of sin even if his brother hadn't killed him he would have died eventually from old age or any other member of things.

It doesn't surprise me what happened as the whole family lived in the fallen world.

It is important to recognize that Abel was righteous and Cain was not based upon the fruits of their lives. They were dramatically different people from the same "stock" as Adam and Eve.

The false doctrine of Total Depravity as preached by both Calvinists and Arminians is a self promoting deception. It provides the false framework that God's Grace is preferential regardless of the senseless fabricated nonsense they claim concerning irresistibly or previening "grace". Which is not grace at all from either view point. It is rubbish.

Certainly. Abel would have died because of Adam nonetheless but there is no self guilt. Which requires innocence.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do I have to know what sin Abel chose to earn the wages of sin ie, death, to know that GOD who is loving and just would never bring suffering and death to anyone innocent of sin because someone else sinned?

Adam earned the wages of sin. We are the offspring of Adam and Eve. Christ became the offspring of Adam and Eve to save men from their sins.

Sin entered this world in the condemnation of the offspring of Adam and Eve.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You haven’t demonstrated its validity, you’ve only assumed it as true.

Your assessment means nothing. Your idols in the Wesley brothers show your sort.

Abel didn't sin. There is not a single Scripture that says that Abel sinned. Not one. You are a false accuser of Abel.

2) I do not take “for all have sinned” to mean “condemnation of Abel personally sinning”, at least not in the Calvinistic sense.

Ezekiel 18 teaches us that we are not condemned for our father’s sins, but only for our own sins. I do not believe that we all personally sinned in Adam. I believe because of Adam we are all born with an inclination to sin that we cannot subdue indefinitely. Thus, sinning is an inevitable consequence, sooner rather than later. We are not guilty personally because of this inclination, but we are not holy, and thus cannot be in relationship with God. Your accusation above is not my point of view.

Do you know how many times in my life I've been right here with a follower of the Wesley brothers? You know what Wesley didn't even believe what he preached. You're a good student. You're right there with him. You're a "chip off the ole block"......

You're lying. The users in the forum can read your comments. I'm not even going to go through you comments anymore. It is not worth it all. You're squirming and "charting your own course" now. All you do when faced with your contradictions. You doubled down above with your false claims concerning Ezekiel 18.

The natural inclination of a Calvinist when he finds out he can't defend the position is to convert to Arminianism. The same is true of Arminianism. Happens over and over again. I was done with both before I was 21 years old. I was done following men. I've lived them both. There isn't much difference between them as a whole. You swallowed the lie and you will do whatever it takes to "hold to" your idols.

I mean can you really abandon Wesleyanism given your history? You'd lose too much among your peers. That tells the tale.....

 

[synergy]

The false doctrine of Total Depravity as preached by both Calvinists and Arminians is a self promoting deception. It provides the false framework that God's Grace is preferential regardless of the senseless fabricated nonsense they claim concerning irresistibly or previening "grace". Which is not grace at all from either view point. It is rubbish.

I agree with what you wrote here. To me "prevenient grace" was a doctrinal patch that Wesley administered in order to make up for gaps in Wesleyian theology.

 

[TedT]

Adam earned the wages of sin. We are the offspring of Adam and Eve. Christ became the offspring of Adam and Eve to save men from their sins.

Sin entered this world in the condemnation of the offspring of Adam and Eve.

No.

This is a doctrine of the gnostics that God is morally dual and creates sin and sinners as well as the innocent and then condemns them for being as they were created due to the sin of another person.

It is another doctrine compared to the GOD loving, righteous and just who abhors evil and all sin and who does no evil nor creates it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No.

This is a doctrine of the gnostics that God is morally dual and creates sin and sinners as well as the innocent and then condemns them for being as they were created due to the sin of another person.

It is another doctrine compared to the GOD loving, righteous and just who abhors evil and all sin and who does no evil nor creates it.

I don't believe in "dualism" and I haven't said anything to confirm your claim.

Do you hate your children when they sin? I never have. I get angry but my love for them quenches my anger. God is so much better than I am.

God used the word "Innocence" throughout the Scriptures. I suggest you get familiar with how that word is used throughout multiple languages.

Don't judge what I say by what you've heard others say. I'm entirely different than they are. I have my own theology. It is not based upon gnostic beliefs.

 

[TedT]

It is not based upon gnostic beliefs.

Somewhat tainted by the though...

 

[synergy]

No.

This is a doctrine of the gnostics that God is morally dual and creates sin and sinners as well as the innocent and then condemns them for being as they were created due to the sin of another person.

It is another doctrine compared to the GOD loving, righteous and just who abhors evil and all sin and who does no evil nor creates it.

Calvinism is dualistic. I'm absolutely sure that @praise_yeshua is not Calvinistic.

Adam's sin resulted in death for everyone but he is the one responsible for that. Each one is responsible for his own sins. God is pure who abhores sin as you stated.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Somewhat tainted by the though...

If you will give details, I will listen.

Adam sinned in the "perfect environment". Adam was incomplete. Peccable. Adam was taken from ashes/dirt. One day that will change. We will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE......

Adam was corruptible. So tell me where you heard this from?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Calvinism is dualistic. I'm absolutely sure that @praise_yeshua is not Calvinistic.

Adam's sin resulted in death for everyone but he is the one responsible for that. Each one is responsible for his own sins. God is pure who abhores sin as you stated.

You said a "mouthful".....

If they could ever stop thinking only about themselves, it would become very clear to them.....

There is fear in death when there shouldn't be. For us, it is graduation time....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[Studyman]

Abel was murdered.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin entered this world through Adam but Abel didn't die because of his own sin. He died because of the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain.

Now tell me how I'm wrong. The only way I can be possibly be wrong is to show me the sin of Abel. Anyone care to detail Abel's sin?

These are good exercises to have in my view. There are a few things to point out though, since you asked.

#1. There is undoubtably conversations and actions that occurred between Abel and God that we are not privy to.

#2. There isn't enough information available to make the Judgment that Abel had never sinned, and therefore was not deserving of death. We only know Abel died and the wages of sin is death.

#3. To assume God had no power to keep Abel from death, is foolishness, in my view. God could have raised Abel from an undeserving death but didn't. While in the case of Jesus, God raised Jesus, who is said to be the "only" sinless man ever born, from an undeserved death.

#4. All we know about the righteousness of Abel, is that he offered and "Acceptable" offering to God. There is nothing in that "work" that would indicate that he was sinless. In fact, it could easily be an indication that he sinned, and was offering a "work" worthy of repentance, a work which was "Acceptable to God".

Heb. 11: 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abraham is said to have done the same thing. This doesn't mean Abraham never sinned.

Good discussion.

 

[TibiasDad]

Abel didn't sin. There is not a single Scripture that says that Abel sinned. Not one. You are a false accuser of Abel.

Neither is there one that directly says he didn’t. Unless of course “all have sinned” doesn’t mean “every single individual” born of Adam. But that is your yet unsupported burden to bear.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Abel was murdered.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Sin entered this world through Adam but Abel didn't die because of his own sin. He died because of the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain.

Now tell me how I'm wrong. The only way I can be possibly be wrong is to show me the sin of Abel. Anyone care to detail Abel's sin?

Plenty of people are murdered yet that doesnt meant hey weren't sinners themselves. What you proposing doesnt even make sense, No doubt Abel was a sinner, why you think he brought a sacrifice before the Lord ?