A Question concerning 2 John 1:7

[Pancho Frijoles]

you are equivocating person with nature.

nice try since biblically they are not the same and neither are they the same in Trinitarian Theology.

this is just another fallacious argument from you.

Of course that person and nature are not the same. We are not debating that.
I’m affirming that the Bible treats God as a Person and not as a nature.

So, wouldyou like to explore with me the other 20 instances in which Paul uses the term God in Philippians?
Would you be willing to publicly accept that Paul treats God as a Person if the other 20 instances show that?
Or would you need mor evidence from other Pauline epistles?

It’s really weird that you and @Dizerner claim to worship a Personal God…and then do not accept that the Bible treats Him as a Personal God!! What is going on?

 

[civic]

Of course that person and nature are not the same. We are not debating that.
I’m affirming that the Bible treats God as a Person and not as a nature.

So, wouldyou like to explore with me the other 20 instances in which Paul uses the term God in Philippians?
Would you be willing to publicly accept that Paul treats God as a Person if the other 20 instances show that?
Or would you need mor evidence from other Pauline epistles?

Its both not just one. God is both Persons and nature. Gods nature is divine whereas your nature is human. Hence you are a human person not a divine person. Jesus has 2 natures- a Divine and human nature yet is One Person whereas Gods nature is Tri-Personal.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Dizerner]

It’s really weird that you and @Dizerner claim to worship a Personal God…and then do not accept that the Bible treats Him as a Personal God!! What is going on?

Again, it's a false dichotomy.

Would you assert the Bible treats God as if he had no nature? I'm sure you would not.

Persons have a nature and natures are an essential property of persons.

Why insist fallaciously that a corporate entity cannot be personal, or that a nature has no relation to persons?

If I say "the Trump household wishes you greetings," I am not thereby making it "non-personal."

If I say "the Court ruled I was innocent," I am not thereby asserting no persons were involved.

If I say "Russia has declared war on Ukraine," I am not thereby proving there was no personal involvement.

Corporate entities and natures can often directly involve persons, and thus, by definition they are personal.

None of your supposed examples are somehow going to disprove that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Its both not just one. God is both Persons and nature.

So we are getting more and more complex

• God is a Person and
• God is a Family or Group of Persons and
• God is a Nature.

Is this what we are arriving to?

Gods nature is divine whereas your nature is human. Hence you are a human person not a divine person. Jesus has 2 natures- a Divine and human nature yet is One Person whereas Gods nature is Tri-Personal.

This is a polytheistic perspective. Please look:

• There may be several persons with a human nature: civic, Pancho Frijoles, Dizerner, Studyman, Joe, TomL, etc.
• There may be several Persons with a divine nature: Aphrodite, Apollos, Hades, Hermes, Juno, Zeus, Artemise, etc.
• There may be several persons with both natures, like Hercules, Perseus, Achilles, Theseus, etc.

This perspective is respectable, but it is not the Jewish monotheistic perspective in which Jesus and his disciples taught the gospel.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Again, it's a false dichotomy.

Would you assert the Bible treats God as if he had no nature? I'm sure you would not.

I’m not saying God has no nature.
All I’m saying is that the Bible treats God or speaks about God as a Person, not as a nature.
God nature is described through His attributes, one of which is his Oneness.

Persons have a nature and natures are an essential property of persons.

Why insist fallaciously that a corporate entity cannot be personal,

I insist because it is inherent to a personal entity to have only one will, one mind.
Corporate entities cannot be personal. Please review your ontology.
If you have no time or energy for such review, ask a five year old girl from Sunday School: “Please point out to me a person”. The girl with reach out with her little hand and index finger and point to her teacher, or to another kid, or to you.

or that a nature has no relation to persons?

I’ve not said that. Strawman fallacy. Persons have natures.

If I say "the Trump household wishes you greetings," I am not thereby making it "non-personal."

Trump household is not a personal being.

If I say "the Court ruled I was innocent," I am not thereby asserting no persons were involved.

Each of the involved persons is personal. The Court is not a personal being.

If I say "Russia has declared war on Ukraine," I am not thereby proving there was no personal involvement.

Each member of the Russian government or Army is a personal being. Russia is not a personal being.

Corporate entities and natures can often directly involve persons, and thus, by definition they are personal.

No. Wrong definition. Involving persons do not make them personal beings. The world is not a personal being. Is it?
You are confounding the extended, relaxed, figurative use of “personal” with the ontological meaning of person, which is as basic as a being aware of his own mind and will, distinct from other minds and wills.

None of your supposed examples are somehow going to disprove that.

They are not supposed.
And your understanding of Person and Personal is wrong.

 

[civic]

So we are getting more and more complex

• God is a Person and
• God is a Family or Group of Persons and
• God is a Nature.

This is a polytheistic perspective. Please look:

• There may be several persons with a human nature: civic, Pancho Frijoles, Dizerner, Studyman, Joe, TomL, etc.
• There may be several Persons with a divine nature: Aphrodite, Apollos, Hades, Hermes, Juno, Zeus, Artemise, etc.
• There may be several persons with both natures, like Hercules, Perseus, Achilles, Theseus, etc.

This perspective is respectable, but it is not the Jewish monotheistic perspective in which Jesus and his disciples taught the gospel.

Nope it’s not polytheism since we deny 3 gods. You are equivocating and redefine words to fit your narrative. You are far from being any type of authority on the Trinity or paganism.

I on the other hand know several established theologians and scholars personally who affirm what I say and teach regarding the Trinity and Deity of Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Unbelieving Jewish people do not worship Jesus Christ as God…

There is absolutely no way anyone who comes to faith (hearing, believing, trusting) in Jesus Christ stays in a false religion serving a false god.

Hi Joe

I asked you whether Jews worship a false god or the True God.
You have not answered.
I didn’t ask you whether they believe Jesus is God. We already know they don’t.
So let me ask you again: Is the God that Jews worship a false god?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

None of your supposed examples are somehow going to disprove that.

In post 75, you said that “words have a contextual meaning” (see below)
I agree.
Why are you, then, refusing to examine the contextual meaning of each of the 20 other instances in which Paul uses the term “God” in the epistle of Philippians, concluding beforehand that nothing will disprove your thesis?

False dichotomy.

Words have contextual meaning.

 

[civic]

Hi Joe

I asked you whether Jews worship a false god or the True God.
You have not answered.
I didn’t ask you whether they believe Jesus is God. We already know they don’t.
So let me ask you again: Is the God that Jews worship a false god?

Yes as the Apostles declare they reject the Savior of the world therefor having a an idol they worship. The Jews have a long history of idolatry and worshiping false gods. Since Messiah is God and they refuse to believe in Him they are idolators.

 

[Dizerner]

If a Jew completely accepted the God of the Tanach, he would also accept the Gospels when presented.

It is theoretically possible a person has not encountered the Gospel yet, but he will if he is seeking.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes

Thanks for your answer.
Your answer is honest, sincere, and mistaken.

1. Throughout out the Pages of the Bible, prophets urged Israelites to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, YHWH. Why would the prophets urge them to worship a false god?
2. Jesus presented the God of Israel as described in the Torah as true. Didn’t Jesus quoted the “Shema Israel” to present the Greatest Commandment?
3. In the New Testament, Paul always takes for granted that Jews and Christians worship the very same God. That is, actually, the starting point of his preaching. We can see this clearly also in the Epistle to Hebrews.

Since you seem interested in knowing the opinion of Christian theologians, please rest assured that Christian theologians agree that the God of the Rabbi of your neighborhood is the same True God that Christians worship.

CONCLUSION: We can affirm that the God a group of people worship is the True God, even if they are not Trinitarian.

I value the brave response of @civic.
Who else wants to be brave enough to answer the question?

 

[mikesw]

Thanks for your answer.
Your answer is honest, sincere, and mistaken.

1. Throughout out the Pages of the Bible, prophets urged Israelites to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, YHWH. Why would the prophets urge them to worship a false god?
2. Jesus presented the God of Israel as described in the Torah as true. Didn’t Jesus quoted the “Shema Israel” to present the Greatest Commandment?
3. In the New Testament, Paul always takes for granted that Jews and Christians worship the very same God. That is, actually, the starting point of his preaching. We can see this clearly also in the Epistle to Hebrews.

Since you seem interested in knowing the opinion of Christian theologians, please rest assured that Christian theologians agree that the God of the Rabbi of your neighborhood is the same True God that Christians worship.

CONCLUSION: We can affirm that the God a group of people worship is the True God, even if they are not Trinitarian.

I value the brave response of @civic.
Who else wants to be brave enough to answer the question?

Jews do not serve God. That is the better answer. Jesus came as their reconciliation with God to take away their sins. Since they have not (within the broad religion) come to Christ. They remain in disobedience. Jesus did not come to them for them to have a second path to justification. Jesus came to them as the only source of justification. To miss that is to miss the whole testimony of scripture. However that is standard mode for Pancho Frijoles. He pretends that the OT is the final message, but that always testified against Jews having any obedience toward God, except in small numbers in most eras. They can still come to Christ to be reconciled with God as long as each are still living. The problem is that they do not even study the scriptures they have. But some, like Pancho Frijoles, may study them just to deny who Christ is. That is harmful and prevents other Jews from coming to reconciliation with God.

 

[mikesw]

Thanks for your answer.
Your answer is honest, sincere, and mistaken.

1. Throughout out the Pages of the Bible, prophets urged Israelites to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, YHWH. Why would the prophets urge them to worship a false god?
2. Jesus presented the God of Israel as described in the Torah as true. Didn’t Jesus quoted the “Shema Israel” to present the Greatest Commandment?
3. In the New Testament, Paul always takes for granted that Jews and Christians worship the very same God. That is, actually, the starting point of his preaching. We can see this clearly also in the Epistle to Hebrews.

Since you seem interested in knowing the opinion of Christian theologians, please rest assured that Christian theologians agree that the God of the Rabbi of your neighborhood is the same True God that Christians worship.

CONCLUSION: We can affirm that the God a group of people worship is the True God, even if they are not Trinitarian.

I value the brave response of @civic.
Who else wants to be brave enough to answer the question?

It is a bummer that few Jews still are ignorant of the Messiah sent to cure Israel of sin 2000 years ago. It is ludicrous that someone who claims to be Jewish not only turns away from the vestige of first-century Jewish hope but turns to a religion that includes all the idolatrous groups that came against Israel that ended in the first-century.
Pray that Pancho Frijoles may repent from his sin and come to the true knowledge of Christ Jesus. That would be the best New Years gift he could receive. His greatest sin is the denial of Christ the Son. But Pancho Frijoles has blocked my posts since I warned him about blasphemy.

 

[mikesw]

duplicate

 

[civic]

Jews do not serve God. That is the better answer. Jesus came as their reconciliation with God to take away their sins. Since they have not (within the broad religion) come to Christ. They remain in disobedience. Jesus did not come to them for them to have a second path to justification. Jesus came to them as the only source of justification. To miss that is to miss the whole testimony of scripture. However that is standard mode for Pancho Frijoles. He pretends that the OT is the final message, but that always testified against Jews having any obedience toward God, except in small numbers in most eras. They can still come to Christ to be reconciled with God as long as each are still living. The problem is that they do not even study the scriptures they have. But some, like Pancho Frijoles, may study them just to deny who Christ is. That is harmful and prevents other Jews from coming to reconciliation with God.

Correct if they really served God then they would repent and accept Christ as their Messiah just like the Apostles who were Jews did as we read in the New Testament. Paul makes it so clear in his writings that they have rejected their only hope of salvation that is only found in Christ. Because of their rejection of Christ ( like many on this forum ) God has included the non Jews in salvation, us gentiles. They are in a hardened state but will one day recognize Him whom they have pierced. All men will one day either in this life or the one to come confess Jesus is LORD ( YHWH ) and those who refuse to while they still have the breath of life in them will unfortunately stand before Him in Judgment and will bow before Him confessing He is Lord ( YHWH ) but it will be too late for them.

They will have no excuse either because the Lord will bring it to their attention that they were told the truth here and rejected Him. When anyone does not honor the Son in the same way as they do the Father they are in reality rejecting Christ and giving Him lip service and their hearts are far from Him. Christ receives equal glory, honor, worship, praise and power from all creation in heaven as we speak yet there are those who devalue Him by not honoring Him as they do the Father. Jesus said those who deny Him the Father will also deny.

They can never say Lord Lord we did not know, but then it will be to late to repent.

 

[Fred]

God is God.

Would that exclude the Father?

 

[Dizerner]

Of course it does make him less divine than His Father, Joe.

• God doesn't speak what other person asks Him to speak, nor does what other person asks Him to do.
• God is not the Messenger or Ambassador of anyone.
• God can't say that He doesn't do things on his own authority.
• God can't say there is another greater than Him, nor that He doesn't know things that other knows.
• God is not sent by anyone, nor raised by anyone, nor exalted to heaven by anyone, nor invited to sit at the right of anyone. On the contrary, God is who sends, raises, exalts and invites to site at his right.
• God does not intercede for men before any other authority, because He is The Authority.
• God is God.

You are limiting God.

Denying the attribute of humility—the ability to humble himself, to limit himself.

with God all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26 NKJ)

 

[civic]

You are limiting God.

Denying the attribute of humility—the ability to humble himself, to limit himself.

with God all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26 NKJ)

Amen !!!

Psalm 113:4-7- The Lord is high above all nations; His glory is above the heavens. 5 Who is like the Lord our God, Who is enthroned on high, 6 Who humbles Himself to behold The things that are in heaven and in the earth? 7 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the needy from the ash heap,

Psalm 18:35- You have given me the shield of your salvation; your right hand upholds me, and your humility exalts me.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are limiting God.

Denying the attribute of humility—the ability to humble himself, to limit himself.

with God all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26 NKJ)

When I was a kid and took religion classes with Catholic priests and nuns, one of them told us this story:

An atheist who believed to be too smart asked the uneducated believer:
---"Can your God create a rock which is so heavy, so heavy, so heavy... that He himself cannot lift?"
The believer answered:
---"Well, I think God can create a stone so heavy as to hit your head with it and wake you up!"

There are things that are intrinsic to the idea or definition of God. So, there is no logical contradiction in saying that God cannot be or do X or Y when X or Y are incompatible with the attributes of God.
For example, since being good is intrinsic to God, God cannot do evil. Since being truthful is intrinsic to God, God cannot lie. Since immortality is intrinsic to God, God cannot die, etc.

Well... to humble means to recognize that truth of being less, or at least at the same level, than something or somebody else.
Humbleness implies that being less or at least equal to X is true. Otherwise it would not be humbleness, but stupidity or concealed vanity.
For example, when Lionel Messi was the best soccer player in the world, it was perfectly right for him to consider himself the best. If he had said otherwise, trying to appear "humble", he would have lied.

So, since God is supreme above everything and everyone else, and that is true, God cannot humble himself, by definition.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Amen !!!

Psalm 113:4-7- The Lord is high above all nations; His glory is above the heavens. 5 Who is like the Lord our God, Who is enthroned on high, 6 Who humbles Himself to behold The things that are in heaven and in the earth? 7 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the needy from the ash heap,

The quotation there does not mean that God makes Himself less than or equal to his creation. You know it. We all know it. So don't play games here of things we both know !

The word "humbles himself" is just a poetic way to say that God "is graceful enough", "corteous enough" as to take care of the little things that could never compare to Him. Two examples of this:

• We can say that God "humbles himself" to feed the birds. This doesn't mean that God degrades his status to the level of a bird, or an ornithologist, or an aviary caregiver.
• If Lionel Messi accepted to play soccer with you and me for 30 min, we would say that Messi "humbled himself" to play with us. It does not mean that Lionel Messi degraded his status as the best soccer player in the world.