A Baptist View of Free Will

[Pancho Frijoles]

So, dear @GodsGrace, imagine you are given the gift to speak in Estonian and preach Christ to 100 young people walking the streets of Tallin, the capital of Estonia (one of the most atheist countries in Europe).
You do it every day. You use every single method of preaching you know. You broadcast podcasts, hand on flyers.... you have personal conversations with each of those 100 people inviting them a coffee, to know about their personal situation, their personal problems, their needs.

Certainly, as any human being, you make mistakes. Your podcasts can get boring. You may not be a good listener or understand the mindset of youngsters or Estonians. You may sometimes lose control and show frustration and anger. You may not provide good answers to their questions, specially from the smartest ones. You are imperfect, and your preaching is imperfect.

Still, by the end of one year of doing that... how many people would have converted to Christ? Let's say one of them has done it.

Well, now imagine God using not only you as an instrument, but using thousands of different instruments, methodologies (including harsh ones, like difficult and painful situations in life), and having infinite energy, infinite time, and infinite INTEREST to save those 100 young Estonians.
How many of them could God save?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not that I agree with your reasoning, but even 99.9% is not, by definition, irresistible.

I agree. No example I could give you can achieve 100%.
But if we go from philosophy and maths to real life, 99.9% is irresistible enough.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for these definitions of "to persuade", my brother.
I'm using the two first definitions for my argument.

So, imagine that I am thirsty and sick wandering in a desert.
Then you show up.
You try to persuade me to turn to the left and walk down half a mile through a narrow dirty road, claiming that you know that desert quite well, that you have a GPS device in your hand, that you have 100 bucks in your pocket... and there is a house overthere where I will get plenty of water, a shower, protection from the sun, etc.
You would have sort of 50 % chance to persuade me. I may still think you want to steal from me, or deceive me in some way. I may prefer to trust in my own supply of water and food, or in my own experience and knowledge of the desert. So I choose to disregard your offer. You disappear.

Two days later, I have exhausted my supply of water, food, and I am extremely weak. I have realized I cannot trust my own abilities, knowledge or resources. I realize I can't save myself. I am facing risk of death. I ask myself why I rejected your offer...
Then you show up again, with the same offer.
This time you'll have 99.9% chance to persuade me So I take your offer.

Would you be forcing my free will? No, you would not.

That's how I conceive irresistible grace.
God is such a great persuader, good is such a good reason, and man is in such need, that God's offer becomes, sooner or later, irresistible.

You made me smile Pancho.
Your analogy is flawed and I'll tell you why.

First of all I don't know if your reformed, but if you believe in irresistible grace I have to assume that you are.

So the reformed believe that man is totally depraved and unable to seek God for himself and this is why God has to predestine individuals to salvation.

This makes your analogy fall apart.
God NEVER makes any OFFER to the thirsty person.

What He does in reformed theology is to take the person, force them to go down the road to the house where there's water.

Whether the thirsty man WANTS to go is irrelevant.
God had predestinated him to go down that road and so He WILL go down that road.

Your analogy works ONLY if the thirsty man has free will.

Again...there is NO FREE WILL with irresistible grace.

Comment?

 

[GodsGrace]

So, dear @GodsGrace, imagine you are given the gift to speak in Estonian and preach Christ to 100 young people walking the streets of Tallin, the capital of Estonia (one of the most atheist countries in Europe).
You do it every day. You use every single method of preaching you know. You broadcast podcasts, hand on flyers.... you have personal conversations with each of those 100 people inviting them a coffee, to know about their personal situation, their personal problems, their needs.

Certainly, as any human being, you make mistakes. Your podcasts can get boring. You may not be a good listener or understand the mindset of youngsters or Estonians. You may sometimes lose control and show frustration and anger. You may not provide good answers to their questions, specially from the smartest ones. You are imperfect, and your preaching is imperfect.

Still, by the end of one year of doing that... how many people would have converted to Christ? Let's say one of them has done it.

Well, now imagine God using not only you as an instrument, but using thousands of different instruments, methodologies (including harsh ones, like difficult and painful situations in life), and having infinite energy, infinite time, and infinite INTEREST to save those 100 young Estonians.
How many of them could God save?

The question is not sufficient.
Does God want to save these 100 persons by force...
or by their own free will?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You made me smile Pancho.
Your analogy is flawed and I'll tell you why.

First of all I don't if your reformed, but if you believe in irresistible grace I have to assume that you are.

So the reformed believe that man is totally depraved and unable to seek God for himself and this is why God has to predestine individuals to salvation.

This makes your analogy fall apart.
God NEVER make any OFFER to the thirsty person.

What He does in reformed theology is to take the person, force them to go down the road to the house where there's water.

Whether the thirsty man WANTS to go is irrelevant.
God had predestinated him to go down that road and so He WILL go down that road.

Your analogy works ONLY if the thirst man has free will.

Again...there is NO FREE WILL with irresistible grace.

Comment?

Sure, I have a comment.

From the perspective of an observer seeing the man accepting the offer in the latest circumstance, it makes no difference at all if that person had free will or not. The chances to be persuaded were 99.9%
So, some observers could claim: "In that extreme circumstance, Pancho was forced to choose his only option to survive"
Some other observers could claim: "No. Pancho was not forced. He always retained his free will".
Both would be right, from a practical perspective.

Of course, if we want to keep the conversation within a strict philosophical frame, or theological frame, both cannot be right. We will need a debate on free will that would take years and centuries. Nobody has been able to solve it. There are biblical passages that seem to support both Calvinistss and Arminians, and there are philosphical arguments that also support both views.

I prefer to see this, then, at a small scale... the scale of the daily happenings of our lives.
I prefer to see God as perfectly sovereign in setting the powerful circumstances that attract us to Him, but also perfectly loving as to respect our own choices. That's why not all men are saved in the same way at the same time and after the same suffering. The requirements are the same (repent, be born again) but the time, place and way we meet those requirements depend both on God's plans and our own choices.

(NOTE: I am not Christian, I am a Baha'i. As a Baha'i, I believe in God's sovereign will to call every single human being according to his plans. I believe in God's predestination, but also in his willingness to save everyone, a thing Calvinists reject. In other words, I believe we are all predestined to be saved... but we decide how much we suffer in that process, how much punishment we get, out of our stubbornness and arrogance).

 

[GodsGrace]

I still see both existing at the same time.

It's OK if you don't grasp this right away.
But surely if you reason it out, one day you will.

@Pancho Frijoles likes analogies. I'll give you one here.

One day your child is kidnapped.
I call you up and tell you that if you don't go to the local coffee shop and buy a coffee,
I will kill your child.

You go to the coffee shop.
THIS is irresistible grace.
YOU HAD NO CHOICE.

Free will is this:

I call you up one day and ask you if you'd like to go have a coffee.
You say YES and you end up at the coffee shop.

Is there a difference?

First, for me, the concept of irresistible grace lacks a solid biblical foundation.

Yippeeee!!!!!
There is no such thing as irresistible grace in the bible.
There is FREE WILL in the bible.

The Scriptures consistently emphasize human responsibility, the nature of God’s call, and the necessity of faith in the process of salvation. Through various passages, it is evident that individuals possess the ability to choose whether to accept or resist God’s grace. And, the theological implications of irresistible grace challenge our understanding of God’s justice, the nature of sin, and the purpose of evangelism.

Wow. Maybe I've misunderstood you??
I agree with the above.

Grace is an essential part of God’s character. Grace is closely related to God’s benevolence, love, and mercy. Grace can be variously defined as “God’s favor toward the unworthy” or “God’s benevolence on the undeserving.” In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don’t deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously.

Agreed. Grace can be described in many way...the above is fine.

Certainly this is desired and irresistible to those who have been taught that in their lives. But....considering the teachings of Scripture advocate for a view of salvation that honors both God’s sovereignty and human agency, underscoring the importance of choice in the relationship between God and humanity.

God is sovereign.
And man has free will.
God is not fearful of having given man free will BECAUSE HE IS SOVERIEGN.

As believers, it is essential to engage with the biblical text critically and to seek a comprehensive understanding of God’s grace that aligns with the entirety of Scripture.

Agreed. But I don't see the problem here.

By doing so, we can uphold the truth that while God’s grace is indeed powerful and transformative, it is not without the capacity for resistance, and individuals are called to respond in faith to the saving work of Christ. But once we do that. Once we make that decision. Then everything offered is irresistible unless you remain lukewarm all your lives.

Sorry MT,,,,I don't understand the above.
Could you explain in a different way?

I see it as .... our free will choice to decide and make that decision in faith and belief then , and only then will the Holy Spirit work in us. It is a choice we make and then if you want to call it irresistible grace takes place. We are not chosen
without our will and permission. No one is. But once we move that way, then God takes over through God the Spirit and God the Son.

I think you're speaking about the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.
Jesus said the Comforter would come and lead us into truth and help us to live out our Christianly life.
Jesus said that as long as we are in Him and He is in us, we will abide in Him and live...If we do not abide in
Him we will be gathered like dead branches and burned.
John 15

Is this what you mean?

I just simply see it as both existing for even His chosen were given the opportunity and not all followed. That is why Jesus had to be sent for the lost. And at that still not all followed.

It was there... this Grace, irresistible or not... for those who would accept. It was a choice.

OK. But God did not have any chosen people unless you mean the Jews that He picked to reveal Himself.

Could we agree to stop calling it irresistible grace so members don't respond to you as if you were Calvinist?

(because it doesn't seem that you are).

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, I have a comment.

From the perspective of an observer seeing the man accepting the offer in the latest circumstance, it makes no difference at all if that person had free will or not. The chances to be persuaded were 99.9%
So, some observers could claim: "In that extreme circumstance, Pancho was forced to choose his only option to survive"
Some other observers could claim: "No. Pancho was not forced. He always retained his free will".
Both would be right, from a practical perspective.

Man's first instinct is survival.
I honestly cannot think of a situation where the thirsty man would not accept water.
I don't like analogies, first of all. They never seem to work well.

And I don't understand what an outsider looking in has anything to do with salvation.

Of course, if we want to keep the conversation within a strict philosophical frame, or theological frame,

I don't like philosophy.....I like theology, so maybe we could discuss theology.
It would also be helpful to know your belief system,,,but I'll just respond to your statements.

both cannot be right. We will need a debate on free will that would take years and centuries. Nobody has been able to solve it. There are biblical passages that seem to support both Calvinistss and Arminians, and there are philosphical arguments that also support both views.

Latest scientific discoveries seem to be confirming free will.

Quantum Theory Demonstrated: Observation Affects Reality

One of the most bizarre premises of quantum theory, which has long fascinated philosophers and physicists alike, states that by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality.

www.sciencedaily.com

You can have fun discussing free will in philosophy all you want to...
I'm not here to have that debate.

IN THEOLOGY FREE WILL simply means to have the capability of CHOOSING between two MORAL OPTIONS.
That's all it means.
We can get into compatibilist free will and libertarian free will but it just messes up the conversation.
Can we stay with my above definition?
This is what free will means in theology.

I prefer to see this, then, at a small scale... the scale of the daily happenings of our lives.
I prefer to see God as perfectly sovereign in setting the powerful circumstances that attract us to Him,

WHICH settings does God use to attract us to Him?
We might agree.

but also perfectly loving as to respect our own choices.

This is what the bible teaches.

That's why not all men are saved in the same way at the same time and after the same suffering. The requirements are the same (repent, be born again) but the time, place and way we meet those requirements depend both on God's plans and our own choices.

HOW does God plan when we will be saved?
Does He take an active role in the timing?

(NOTE: I am not Christian, I am a Baha'i.

I like the Baha'i. You won't get any problem from me.
And I know you respect Christians as you do all religions.

As a Baha'i, I believe in God's sovereign will to call every single human being according to his plans.

Could you explain this better?

I believe in God's predestination, but also in his willingness to save everyone, a thing Calvinists reject. In other words, I believe we are all predestined to be saved... but we decide how much we suffer in that process, how much punishment we get, out of our stubbornness and arrogance).

I don't remember this about the Baha'i.
I know that they believe that God saves through different faiths as long as the person is worshipping God Father, God Almighty, God the Creator...and that they live for God.

Calvinists do indeed reject this: They believe that God saves some and damns others and FOR NO REASON AT ALL...
which makes God to be most UNJUST.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I thought I would share the official BAPTIST position

Of courst since the "Official Baptist position" is nothing more than just another "Theological 'ism" it's only important to Baptists, and relatively meaningless to all those who ascribe to other (or no) "Isms".

"Theology" is all well and good - as long as you don't take it all that SERIOUSLY. The Bible understood with the Illumination of the Holy Spirit (that Jesus sent to lead into all truth) is a better way.

 

[MTMattie]

It's OK if you don't grasp this right away.
But surely if you reason it out, one day you will.

@Pancho Frijoles likes analogies. I'll give you one here.

One day your child is kidnapped.
I call you up and tell you that if you don't go to the local coffee shop and buy a coffee,
I will kill your child.

You go to the coffee shop.
THIS is irresistible grace.
YOU HAD NO CHOICE.

Interesting analogy except God does not threaten people..... and this analogy has me thinking if that were to happen I would agree to go, all the while letting the Columbo (are you old enough?) in me do a work around for I have never been one that responds to "you have to".

All kidding aside , I understand what you are saying... but I still maintain both can still be at work simply because now that , as one of my former favorite televangelists used to say, my know knows. My unwavering certainty of Gods plan, and Jesus' shed blood, and the indwelling of the spirit
is true.... there is nothing that could pull me away from that belief. God has bestowed irresistible grace on this wretched soul. And that is a truth I myself came to believe not because He tapped me on my shoulder or picked my spirit from those he gives to people on their birth , and I happened to be one of the lucky ones.... but it was because everything that I read, heard, and saw make perfect sense... so I chose.

I do not know how to explain it otherwise.

Free will is this:

I call you up one day and ask you if you'd like to go have a coffee.
You say YES and you end up at the coffee shop.

Is there a difference?

Yes, of course there is a difference. Of course, the second part involved a decision of whether or not to go have coffee = free will.

Yippeeee!!!!!
There is no such thing as irresistible grace in the bible.
There is FREE WILL in the bible.

Fully agreed. But there are those who will say not so. There also are those who will say the fact that the word predestined appears 4 times in the bible in the letters of Paul and the message of predestination appears more then 20 times even though the word is not used that that is proof enough for them.

Wow. Maybe I've misunderstood you??
I agree with the above.

Agreed. Grace can be described in many way...the above is fine.

God is sovereign.
And man has free will.
God is not fearful of having given man free will BECAUSE HE IS SOVERIEGN.

Excellent. I agree.

Agreed. But I don't see the problem here.

Sorry MT,,,,I don't understand the above.
Could you explain in a different way?

I said, from above...

As believers, it is essential to engage with the biblical text critically and to seek a comprehensive understanding of God’s grace that aligns with the entirety of Scripture.

By doing so, we can uphold the truth that while God’s grace is indeed powerful and transformative, it is not without the capacity for resistance, and individuals are called to respond in faith to the saving work of Christ. But once we do that. Once we make that decision. Then everything offered is irresistible unless you remain lukewarm all your lives.

Sorry MT,,,,I don't understand the above.
Could you explain in a different way?

Let me try it this way. We read and study the word for many reasons and one of those is to be sure that we understand what God's Grace means.
To me I have come to accept God's grace is the unmerited favor and kindness that God shows to mankind , allowing for forgiveness and a relationship with Him despite human shortcomings. (Predestination just never seems to demand a repentance or needing forgiveness to the extent freewill does.

Then I went on and better wording perhaps would be that even though God's grace is inexplicably amazing it is never forced on anyone allowing those to resist but when they have one of those lightbulb moments when it all clicks in the brain then one wants more and more of God, non stop.

I think you're speaking about the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.
Jesus said the Comforter would come and lead us into truth and help us to live out our Christianly life.
Jesus said that as long as we are in Him and He is in us, we will abide in Him and live...If we do not abide in
Him we will be gathered like dead branches and burned.
John 15

Is this what you mean?

Yes

OK. But God did not have any chosen people unless you mean the Jews that He picked to reveal Himself.

That's them. and Jesus said in Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” In fact when he was sending the disciples out, in Matt 10:5 He even said ~These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

Which certainly should knock a pin or two out of any Calvinist predestined person because they jump up and down predestination was from before time. If it was... it was only for the Jew.

Could we agree to stop calling it irresistible grace so members don't respond to you as if you were Calvinist?

OK... I will agree to stop calling it that and call it just grace....

(because it doesn't seem that you are).

I am the least Calvin person you are likely to meet on here.

 

[TedT]

Could we say it like this?:
GOD FOREKNEW FROM THE BEGINNING WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO BE SAVED BY BELIEVING IN JESUS, THE CHRIST.

That would make perfect sense.
You're trying to reconcile free will with predestinaton and it cannot be done.

I contend that your definitions are wrong...imCo.

Predestination is not causal, it was responsive. That is, when we chose by our free will to accept HIS gospel as the true by faith, then HE responded to this free will decision by predestining us to salvation (as HE promised HE would when HE proclaimed the gospel to all of creation) if we should ever sin. HE did not pick and choose who would be saved, we chose for ourselves by putting our faith in HIM that HIS gospel of election and salvation was true.

I also deny that GOD knew before creation who would choose to be saved by faith because:
Ezek 18:23
Berean Standard Bible
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live? with
1 Timothy 2:4
...who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
and
Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

which imply to me that IF GOD did not take any pleasure in the death (in hell) of HIS any of HIS creation and indeed wants all to be saved, and IF HE knew before creation who would be saved and who would chose condemnation, THEN all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to have all HIS creation saved from their sin was to not create those whom HE foreknew would choose to sin the unforgivable sin!

Since HE did create those who condemned themselves to hell by putting their faith in HIS being a liar and therefore a false god, it is obvious that HE did not know who would choose what by their free will!

Please consider:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church even though it supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway!

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves. A reworking of the meaning of omniscience is necessary...

 

[atpollard]

Of courst since the "Official Baptist position" is nothing more than just another "Theological 'ism" it's only important to Baptists, and relatively meaningless to all those who ascribe to other (or no) "Isms".

"Theology" is all well and good - as long as you don't take it all that SERIOUSLY. The Bible understood with the Illumination of the Holy Spirit (that Jesus sent to lead into all truth) is a better way.

Baptists tend to lean heavily into Sola Scriptura and The BIBLE as our only creed. So let's test your premise.

The BIBLE says This:

• Matthew 17:12 [ESV] "But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
• James 1:14 [ESV] "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire."
• Deuteronomy 30:19 [ESV] "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,"

Do those verses, individually and collectively, including taking account of their surrounding context, support the following statement, or is this statement un-Biblical?

• God has endowed human will with natural liberty and power to act on choices so that it is neither forced nor inherently bound by nature to do good or evil. - BCF

Was there "illumination of the Holy Spirit" to reveal that truth, or is it indeed "meaningless"?

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting analogy except God does not threaten people..... and this analogy has me thinking if that were to happen I would agree to go, all the while letting the Columbo (are you old enough?) in me do a work around for I have never been one that responds to "you have to".

All kidding aside , I understand what you are saying... but I still maintain both can still be at work simply because now that , as one of my former favorite televangelists used to say, my know knows. My unwavering certainty of Gods plan, and Jesus' shed blood, and the indwelling of the spirit

Yes. This would be God's plan because He did make provision for man's salvation after the fall of Adam.
So, yes, God does definitely have a plan for makind- but it does not include choosing individual persons for salvation.
So,,,agreed.

is true.... there is nothing that could pull me away from that belief. God has bestowed irresistible grace on this wretched soul. And that is a truth I myself came to believe not because He tapped me on my shoulder or picked my spirit from those he gives to people on their birth , and I happened to be one of the lucky ones.... but it was because everything that I read, heard, and saw make perfect sense... so I chose.

Ok.
I know what you mean.

I do not know how to explain it otherwise.


Yes, of course there is a difference. Of course, the second part involved a decision of whether or not to go have coffee = free will.

Right.

Fully agreed. But there are those who will say not so. There also are those who will say the fact that the word predestined appears 4 times in the bible in the letters of Paul and the message of predestination appears more then 20 times even though the word is not used that that is proof enough for them.

The word PREDESTINATION certainly appears in the NT. A few times, as you've noted.
But it NEVER refers to a person's individual salvation being chosen by God.
It always pertains to HOW a person is saved...
or WHY a person is saved: So it would be METHOD or PURPOSE....
predestination always is referring to the method of salvation or the purpose for salvation.

Excellent. I agree.


I said, from above...



Sorry MT,,,,I don't understand the above.
Could you explain in a different way?

Let me try it this way. We read and study the word for many reasons and one of those is to be sure that we understand what God's Grace means.
To me I have come to accept God's grace is the unmerited favor and kindness that God shows to mankind , allowing for forgiveness and a relationship with Him despite human shortcomings. (Predestination just never seems to demand a repentance or needing forgiveness to the extent freewill does.

What a great point !

Predestination does not require repentance or asking for forgiveness....
This is because, as I always say, in reformed/calvinist theology....God does it all.

Then I went on and better wording perhaps would be that even though God's grace is inexplicably amazing it is never forced on anyone allowing those to resist but when they have one of those lightbulb moments when it all clicks in the brain then one wants more and more of God, non stop.

True. The more grace you use up.....
the more grace God will give to you.
He'll give you all you need.

Yes


That's them. and Jesus said in Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” In fact when he was sending the disciples out, in Matt 10:5 He even said ~These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

Agreed!

Which certainly should knock a pin or two out of any Calvinist predestined person because they jump up and down predestination was from before time. If it was... it was only for the Jew.

Another great point!

OK... I will agree to stop calling it that and call it just grace....

I am the least Calvin person you are likely to meet on here.

Yeah. I think calling just GRACE would be much more understandable for others to know what you mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptists tend to lean heavily into Sola Scriptura and The BIBLE as our only creed. So let's test your premise.

The BIBLE says This:

• Matthew 17:12 [ESV] "But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."
• James 1:14 [ESV] "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire."
• Deuteronomy 30:19 [ESV] "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,"

Do those verses, individually and collectively, including taking account of their surrounding context, support the following statement, or is this statement un-Biblical?

• God has endowed human will with natural liberty and power to act on choices so that it is neither forced nor inherently bound by nature to do good or evil. - BCF

Was there "illumination of the Holy Spirit" to reveal that truth, or is it indeed "meaningless"?

It's meaningless if God decreed everything.

 

[TedT]

Then there is theological free will, which is what we're supposed to be discussing in these forums.
Theological free will is easily explained as such:
The ability to choose between 2 MORAL OPTIONS without any outside coercion.

To me any choice is free if it comes from the uncoerced desire of the person... uncoerced by GOD, uncoerced by enslavement to sin, uncoerced by anything. This includes but is not limited to making moral decisions between opposing moral stances.

An influence is a force put upon the person choosing to try to get the person to choose a certain way but without the coercive force necessary to force the choice to be made that way.

An influence can be denied, a coercion cannot.

 

[GodsGrace]

I contend that your definitions are wrong...imCo.

Predestination is not causal, it was responsive. That is, when we chose by our free will to accept HIS gospel as the true by faith, then HE responded to this free will decision by predestining us to salvation (as HE promised HE would when HE proclaimed the gospel to all of creation) if we should ever sin. HE did not pick and choose who would be saved, we chose for ourselves by putting our faith in HIM that HIS gospel of election and salvation was true.

I also deny that GOD knew before creation who would choose to be saved by faith because:
Ezek 18:23
Berean Standard Bible
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live? with
1 Timothy 2:4
...who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
and
Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

which imply to me that IF GOD did not take any pleasure in the death (in hell) of HIS any of HIS creation and indeed wants all to be saved, and IF HE knew before creation who would be saved and who would chose condemnation, THEN all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to have all HIS creation saved from their sin was to not create those whom HE foreknew would choose to sin the unforgivable sin!

Since HE did create those who condemned themselves to hell by putting their faith in HIS being a liar and therefore a false god, it is obvious that HE did not know who would choose what by their free will!

Please consider:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church even though it supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway!

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves. A reworking of the meaning of omniscience is necessary...

I cannot reply to the above TedT.
It's overflowing with error and I just don't have the time.

 

[GodsGrace]

To me any choice is free if it comes from the uncoerced desire of the person... uncoerced by GOD, uncoerced by enslavement to sin, uncoerced by anything. This includes but is not limited to making moral decisions between opposing moral stances.

An influence is a force put upon the person choosing to try to get the person to choose a certain way but without the coercive force necessary to force the choice to be made that way.

An influence can be denied, a coercion cannot.

I agree.
I was explaining biblical free will.
That's all I was doing.

 

[TedT]

By the same token, “irresistible grace” should not mean that free will is violated.
Free will operates within constraints.
So does irresistible grace.

Irresistible grace means WE HAVE NO FREE WILL.

Irresistible grace does go against the sinner's will which is enslaved by sin which does prove their will as sinners is not free,
BUT IF
they had previously put their faith in YHWH as their saviour from sin by their free will, tacitly giving approval for HIM to interfere with their sinful state and redeem them from their foolishness,
THEN
HIS irresistible grace fulfills their free will decision to be saved made in their innocence before they chose to be sinful in HIS sight and, even though grace goes against their will enslaved to sin, it does not violate their free will.

 

[TedT]

Interesting analogy except God does not threaten people.....

but HE did and does WARN people of the inevitable consequences of their choices.