A Baptist View of Free Will

[atpollard]

its not as bad as some saying I was never a calvinist lol. These are the same ones when I was a calvinist on other forums always giving me a high 5 and rep points for debating with non calvinists. Some will say anything to try and win an argument to the extent of being silly and ridiculous. I'm not including @atpollard as one of them just to be clear.

John Calvin appears to have only been a 4-pointer ... he was a little soft on LIMITED ATONEMENT because the Scriptural Evidence was so "open to other interpretation" in his opinion. It made sense, but was not as clearly articulated as the other points.

• CLEARLY the bible says people sin
• CLEARLY the bible says the Father draws
• CLEARLY the bible says "not of works"
• CLEARLY the bible says Jesus will "lose none" and the "deposit" will "guarantee the inheritance"

Laying down His life for "the sheep" is a lot more vague, and may or may not be meant to go with "sheep vs goats" and "not my sheep" ... Calvin was unwilling to say "DEFINITELY YES" but was also not willing to say "NO". It was really unfair to blame him for TULIP when the Synod of Dort really came up with that (idea, not acronym ... the acronym only goes back to the 1930's).

I liked Spurgeon's analogy (it convinced me to get off the fence on Limited Atonement): "Does God build a bridge wide enough for all men without exception half way across the river and ask men to jump the rest of the way, or does God build a narrow bridge all the way across, only wide enough for 'whosoever believes'?"

• I think, even if Wesleyan Free Will is ultimately true, the ATONEMENT is still EFFECTIVE and shed only for "whosoever believes" ... unbelievers sins remain their own as they stand "already condemned" (John 3:18)

 

[civic]

John Calvin appears to have only been a 4-pointer ... he was a little sofy on LIMITED ATONEMENT because the Scriptural Evidence was so "open to other interpretation" in his opinion. It made sense, but was not as clearly articulated as the other points.

• CLEARLY the bible says people sin
• CLEARLY the bible says the Father draws
• CLEARLY the bible says "not of works"
• CLEARLY the bible says Jesus will "loose none" and the "deposit" will "guarantee the inheritance"

Laying down His life for "the sheep" is a lot more vague, and may or may not be meant to go with "sheep vs goats" and "not my sheep" ... Calvin was unwilling to say "DEFINITELY YES" but was also not willing to say "NO". It was really unfair to blame him for TULIP when the Synod of Dort really came up with that (idea, not acronym ... the acronym only goes back to the 1930's).

I liked Spurgeon's analogy (it convinced me to get off the fence on Limited Atonement): "Does God build a bridge wide enough for all men without exception half way across the river and ask men to jump the rest of the way, or does God build a narrow bridge all the way across, only wide enough for 'whosoever believes'?"

• I think, even if Wesleyan Free Will is ultimately true, the ATONEMENT is still EFFECTIVE and shed only for "whosoever believes" ... unbelievers sins remain their own as they stand "already condemned" (John 3:18)

pretty good post but unbelief is what condemns a person when they reject Christ atonement for their sins. Jesus pretty much summed that up in John 3:16-18.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is the (T) that makes the (I) of John 6:44 necessary. All you proved is the point of John 3:19-20 and Romans 3:10-12 ... Free Will is to run and HIDE (just like Adam in Genesis 3:8).

• Genesis 3:8 [NLT] When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.
• John 3:19-20 [NLT] And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
• John 6:44 [NLT] For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
• Romans 3:10-12 [NLT] As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

The leopard cannot change his spots (and has no desire to) ... until God opens their heart (Acts 16:14) and draws them in (John 6:65).

@civic proved that man has free will.

Matthew 22:2-3
2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
If a person is UNWILLING to do something...
it means that they have A CHOICE to either do it or not do it.
If they have A CHOICE...
it means they have FREE WILL.

And I'd also post some verses further down:

Matthew 22:9
9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'
Everyone the slaves could find were invited to the wedding.
Everyone is invited to join in the salvation for which our Lord gave His life in sacrifice for our sins.
No one is excluded.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus said WHOEVER....
Whoever means anyone that would.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not know how to explain it.

I only know that through my brick and mortar church and their teachings as a child I came to know that it was because of the shed blood of Jesus on the cross that salvation was brought to those who had faith or believed that. It was after that that the brick and mortar church confirmed me to
be a member... along with others in the class we were taking and after that I had my first Holy Communion. My church will only serve communion to those who believe that Jesus is the reason.....

This is a good practice.
Communion is not a meal for everyone....
Jesus said: Do this in remembrance of Me.

Which always seemed counter to Predestined beliefs that never seem to emphasize that.

Agreed. If everything is predestined...
man needs do nothing at all because God is doing it all for him.
Predestination is incorrect in so many ways...

Anyway... I went through the 60s and all that entailed and being young ... well lets just say I did things I am not proud of. Yet I still was told I was saved, but I just did not feel it.... not like today. It was when I was in my late 30s that I felt God must be very disapppointed in me but I also came to believe that I might possibly not be saved.

Happily for us....God will judge us on what we know.
It would be up to the churches to teach more...but not all of them do.
However, you see, the Holy Spirit is always working in us.

Obviously I am leaving things unexplained. I shall leave it up to the reader to fill in the blanks.

So I went on a personal growth toward and with God. My life became centered on NOT WORKS... but on learning. Readings. and yes, even listening to multiple televangelists... a variety who did not all talk the same talk and it was during this time.. into the late 80s or early 90s that I began to pray in tongues. STOP............ This is not for discussion. And I started to go to visit some of these televangelists... Jack Van Impe, and even to Robert Schullers Founders INN where they were having a conference on end times. .... another not for discussion subject... and was the first time I was in the presence of those who actually raised their hands in song and prayer. Truth. I was not phased by this. But I did enjoy the speakers at the conference on end times for that has been something of interest for me since I was in my 20s.

No problem I used to go to Jimmy Swaggart conferences, or whatever they were called, even my non-born again at the time husband would come with me and enjoy these conferences...15, 20 thousand persons - it was like a party. He was with the AofG back then...good teaching.

Anyway, I came back from that and went about life as usual... still reading and seeking and following God as much as I could and even had the opportunity in 2004 to go to San Antonio Texas and hear John Hagee preach... but 4 years later my life finally fell apart. It was actually doing so from around 1998 until about 2007 and I was in trouble and God had my back in an unbelievable way. (Nope... no explanations)

Like I said....He always does.

But what did I do to repay him..... I allowed myself to go back into some old habits and new and it took me 3 years to let my guilt bring me to my senses and every so slowly i got back on the straight and narrow.... not without a major health issue as a result on my foolishness and then
one day I cannot say what I was doing.... It may have been as I was watching a religious program or it could have been when my mind was thinking I only know that I experienced a feeling that could only have been the Holy Spirit convicting me and entering me and he is still here.

Sounds normal. We have to get to the bottom of the barrel before we listen.
Everything has to be taken away so we could turn to God and finally HEAR Him.
This is a common experience.
The world makes too much noise.

I cannot describe the feeling. If you have had it you know.

So while the Sovereignty of God has full control of everything from beginning to the end and has controlled much of what we read in the Scriptures as well as having permitted thing in the Scriptures He allowed me the freedom to explore my freewill throughout my life until I just no longer wanted to because His love and Jesus love are far to important then anything this life will allow.

OK...but it is also your free will that allowed you to finally say yes to God.
You're still a free person...but you have finally heard
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

You see, we PRESENT ourselves to God...
He doesn't drag us to Him.
And, we are not to conform to this world,,,but to serve God as best we can.

So I repeat.. I dont know how I did... but I did. Praise God

Maranatha

Amen,amen

Praise be to God for His goodness toward us.

 

[atpollard]

pretty good post but unbelief is what condemns a person when they reject Christ atonement for their sins. Jesus pretty much summed that up in John 3:16-18.

So a GOOD person will go to HELL for simply being born Jewish?
[WOW, you Arminians serve a MEAN God. ]

 

[MTMattie]

So a GOOD person will go to HELL for simply being born Jewish?
[WOW, you Arminians serve a MEAN God. ]

You should know what is said in the bible in John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

You should know this is true because what did Jesus tell us in Matt 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

So they had their opportunity.

God did not force them into belief... he gave them the opportunity to accept or reject.

 

[atpollard]

You should know what is said in the bible in John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

You should know this is true because what did Jesus tell us in Matt 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

So they had their opportunity.

God did not force them into belief... he gave them the opportunity to accept or reject.

I was teasing @civic a little [It was a bit of a Calvinist inside joke, since Calvinism is very frequently accused of depicting a "mean God" because of supposed active/active Double Predestination ... you know, God creates people and prevents them from believing].

I was using humor to hint at a flaw inherent in UNLIMITED ATONEMENT ... (or at least the presented argument implying that people were ONLY condemned for disbelief and all other sins had been forgiven at the Atonement).

• If the Atonement forgave ALL SIN except unbelief, then an orthodox Jew or devout Hindu is RIGHTEOUS except for the misfortune of being a fervent believer in the wrong catechism.
• Thus GOOD people are being damned for failing a theology test, not for any EVIL they may have done.
• Does that not condemn all infants (do they BELIEVE)?
• Does that not condemn everyone that never heard the Gospel (do they BELIEVE)?

I am a 5-point Monergist, so this is NOT my belief. I stand on For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." - Romans 9:15-16 [NLT]
I am just pointing out a consequence of what @civic stated [hopefully taken in good humor to provoke a clarification and friendly banter.]

 

[TedT]

ImCo:

All FREE means is uncoerced:

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: [URL]http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness[/URL] as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Therefore the only impetus to choose one way (holiness according to the word of GOD) or evil (rebuking GOD as a liar and therefore a false god) is our hope of which stance will bring us the most happiness, and a hope without proof is defined as faith, Heb 11:1.

Peace, Ted

 

[TedT]

The ability to choose does not prove free will, only the ability to choose true RIGHTEOUSNESS (not just a worldy goodness) proves our will is free from the enslavement of evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

The ability to choose does not prove free will, only the ability to choose true RIGHTEOUSNESS (not just a worldy goodness) proves our will is free from the enslavement of evil.

You're conflating free will with freedom.

Free will, biblically speaking, means a person can choose between 2 moral options.

Freedom is what we obtain when we decide to serve God instead of satan --and these are the only 2 choices.

I agree with you that man only has FREEDOM,,,or,,,is TRULY FREE when He serves God. He is freed from the grip of satan and will be able to think straight and live a more joyful life right here on earth.

 

[Dizerner]

The ability to choose does not prove free will, only the ability to choose true RIGHTEOUSNESS (not just a worldy goodness) proves our will is free from the enslavement of evil.

The will is restored and empowered by God's preceding grace to all people through the Work of Christ to choose righteousness.

The lost have a measure of free will, and can choose outwardly morally good things, but cannot establish their own righteousness.

 

[TedT]

The will is restored and empowered by God's preceding grace to all people through the Work of Christ to choose righteousness.

The lost have a measure of free will, and can choose outwardly morally good things, but cannot establish their own righteousness.

Sounds like doublethink to me...

 

[Dizerner]

Sounds like doublethink to me...

Well, you are not thinking clearly then. There is absolutely no logical contradictions within the statement.

 

[TedT]

Free will, biblically speaking, means a person can choose between 2 moral options.

Enslaved to sin means we cannot choose the option to be righteous or it is a meaningless thing to say.

 

[Dizerner]

[WOW, you Arminians serve a MEAN God. ]

This brings out an interesting point. Because unless everyone is OWED a chance under a so-called "Pelagian" type system, people will be offended.

Since Calvinism and Arminianism share the belief that no one deserves the grace of God and all are born sinful and unworthy, both share the understanding that God is inherently offensive to sinful flesh, as Scripture very plainly reveals to us.

So then, what is the difference between the two, if both have a so-called "mean" God?

— Under Arminianism God has a perfect attribute of love, is maximally loving and desirous for all to be saved, even though he does not owe it.

— Under Calvinism God has an imperfect attribute of partial love, only loving and desiring some to be saved, even though he does not owe it.


Thus for all God's attributes to be perfect—not just partially good, but maximally good—only the Arminian God is possible.

 

[Dizerner]

Enslaved to sin means we cannot choose the option to be righteous or it is a meaningless thing to say.

No. You're 100% wrong on this, you and others like you, keep conflating the definition and condition with grace and without grace.

It describes what is possible WITHOUT grace. WITHOUT grace. Only definitional of a GRACELESS state.

With the grace of God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

 

[TedT]

The lost have a measure of free will, and can choose outwardly morally good things, but cannot establish their own righteousness.

It is a logical contradiction to believe we have any free will but then are limited by what we can chose - the opposite of freedom.

 

[Dizerner]

It is a logical contradiction to believe we have any free will but then are limited by what we can chose - the opposite of freedom.

Ah, no, that's a misunderstanding of free will.

Free will has never definitionally meant that "Every possible option is always available."

Like if you can't make yourself into an infinite God you don't have free will then.

 

[GodsGrace]

Enslaved to sin means we cannot choose the option to be righteous or it is a meaningless thing to say.

Here's what Paul says in
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
See Ted, Paul says that we PRESENT OURSELVES....
so we could either be slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.
It depends on WHO we present ourselves to.
Point it...nowhere in the NT does it state that God drags us to sin or drags us to be righteous.
It's a free will choice we must make.

John said this:
1 John 1:3
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

The gospel was proclaimed to us so that we too may have fellowship with God and the Apostles.

It states, everywhere, that we can have fellowship...
this is the reason for the good news.

Nowhere does it state that it will be God that chooses to save some of us.

 

[TedT]

Free will has never definitionally meant that "Every possible option is always available."

When one has a true free will then all options are indeed always available and this is only denied because of the false understanding of our enslavement to sin and our being born into or under sin with no ability to break our enslavement to sin ourselves. Any hint that sinners have any power to choose righteousness or faith denies the reality of the enslavement to sin.

I contend that every possible option is only not available to the sinful who are enslaved to sin...and therefore do not have a free will whether elect or reprobate!

The holy angels and the Triune GOD in heaven all have a free will with all options before them but they will NEVER choose to sin because they know the consequences of sin and they are driven by love and nothing else. When we are fully sanctified we too will share this pov, thus becoming heaven ready!