Dizerner
Well-known member
So unless I can fly and fart rainbows I don't have free will.
Sorry, I can't take you seriously anymore.
A Baptist View of Free Will
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
So unless I can fly and fart rainbows I don't have free will.
Sorry, I can't take you seriously anymore.
I tend to not say that also...though it works out this way, sigh.
This is how I see our becoming elect before the foundation of the world:
1. GOD told everyone created in HIS image, Col 1:23, that if we put our faith, an unproven hope Heb 11:1 in HIM as our creator GOD and in the Son as our only saviour from sin then HE would respond to our choice by electing us to salvation to the heavenly marriage.
2. HE also warned everyone that to not to put their faith in HIM as our GOD and Saviour by their free will would take them outside of HIS loving mercy forever so HE would not be able to save them from their sin. As permanently unable to ever become holy or to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation to become HIS Bride, they would be sent into the outer darkness forever.
Thus HE did in fact choose everyone who will be saved from sin but not by a whim but based upon their / our free will response to HIS proclamation of the gospel before the creation (foundation) of the world.
Pulllease, these things were never options of our free will as you well know... They are outside of our willpower so moving the goalpost in such a clumsy manner is not worthy.
I was being serious, I'm actually sorry you are not, sigh.
GodsGrace
Member
If you think it works out that way,,,then you should say it like that.
It would be incorrect, of course.
Ok
So we have to PUT OUR FAITH in our Lord and Savior Jesus.
This is an action we must take.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed. God gives to everyone the same chance/opportunity to become saved...
but some just will not accept it.
I see a little confusion here TedT.Thus HE did in fact choose everyone who will be saved from sin but not by a whim but based upon their / our free will response to HIS proclamation of the gospel before the creation (foundation) of the world.
Could we say it like this?:
GOD FOREKNEW FROM THE BEGINNING WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO BE SAVED BY BELIEVING IN JESUS, THE CHRIST.
That would make perfect sense.
You're trying to reconcile free will with predestinaton and it cannot be done.
God did not PREDESTINATE a persons salvation...
But He FOREKNEW who would be saved.
Just a slight change of language and you've got it 100% !
Johann
Well-known member
Your statement aligns with a foreknowledge view of election, often associated with Arminian theology, but it does not fully account for the way predestination is used in Scripture.
Predestination in Scripture – The Bible does speak of predestination (προορίζω, proorizō), meaning "to determine beforehand." Key passages include Romans 8:29–30 and Ephesians 1:5,11, which state that God "predestinated" believers to adoption and conformity to Christ. However, these passages do not explicitly say God predestines who will believe, but rather that those who believe are predestined to certain outcomes (i.e., glorification).
Foreknowledge in Scripture – The term foreknow (προγινώσκω, proginōskō) in Romans 8:29 means more than just knowing facts in advance; it can imply an intimate relationship (cf. Amos 3:2, 1 Peter 1:2). God's foreknowledge is not merely awareness of future events but is often connected with His purposeful plan.
Distinction Between Foreknowledge and Predestination – Your statement emphasizes that God foreknows who will be saved but does not predestine salvation itself. However, some interpretations argue that God's foreknowledge and predestination work together, as Romans 8:29 says, "whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." This does not mean foreknowledge causes predestination, but it suggests a link between them.
Does God Predestine Salvation? – While the Bible does not explicitly say God predestines individuals to believe, it does say He predestines believers to certain things (Ephesians 1:5). Some theological perspectives, particularly Reformed theology, hold that predestination includes God choosing individuals for salvation (Ephesians 1:4). Others argue that predestination refers to what happens to believers rather than who will believe.
A more precise phrasing might be:
"God foreknew who would believe, and He predestined those believers to be conformed to the image of Christ."
This keeps foreknowledge and predestination in their biblical context while avoiding theological assumptions that lean too far in one direction.
J.
GodsGrace
Member
Correct.
Predestination does not refer to INDVIDUALS being saved from before time...
but it refers to PURPOSE or METHOD.
Right. The link is that WHO God FOREKNEW would become saved....
He PREDESTINATED to become sons of God through FAITH in JESUS (and other such statements).
Agreed.
Every reformed/Calvinist I've ever posted to believes that God predestines individuals to salvation...
but OK.
Absolutely correct.
Nice to see you here.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
By the same token, “irresistible grace” should not mean that free will is violated.
Free will operates within constraints.
So does irresistible grace.
Irresistible grace from God implies relentless love, and an inimaginable skill to persuade.
I found the woman I married irresistible. That means that, given her charm and my need to be charmed, it was a matter of time to fall in love with her.
It does not mean that I was a robot or that she violated my free will.Same with us.
Imagine the stubborn and rebel sheep that has gone astray. The shepherd leaves the other 99 secure and runs after the lost sheep.
It will be just a matter of time for the sheep to realize it needs the shepherd, and accept being taken back. It is in shepherd’s nature to love the sheep, and it is in the nature of the sheep to feel the need to survive.
Last edited:
GodsGrace
Member
Could I please say the following to you.....
There is philosophical free will which would include discussion such as the fact that man could not fly even if he has the free will to do so.
Then there is theological free will, which is what we're supposed to be discussing in these forums.
Theological free will is easily explained as such:
The ability to choose between 2 MORAL OPTIONS without any outside coercion.
The other poster is not moving the goal posts...
he's just not responding to theological free will.
GodsGrace
Member
Wrong Pancho.
Irresistible grace means WE HAVE NO FREE WILL.
Unless you could show the opposite to be true...
plain simple language debunks your statement that irresistible grace does not violate free will.
YES IT DOES.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
What does persuasion means to you?
How good is God at persuading?
I’m interested in knowing what you think.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Having constraints and having NO OPTION WHATSOEVER are completely different things.
Not "the same token."
You are not thinking straight at all on this, and asserting a direct logical contradiction.
Go tell your wife, "I had no actual decision in choosing to love you" and see if she likes robots.
Who knows, some people actually do, maybe they were forced to.
MTMattie
Well-known member
IOW Proving they are reprobate and to quote Calvin..." while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death "?
Dizerner
Well-known member
No, divine determinism is false.
This Gospel shall go forth in all the world and then the end shall come.
civic
Well-known member
correct
GodsGrace
Member
Hi Pancho
Persuasion is not the same as Irresistible.
To be irresistible means that I have no choice over something...
it means that my will cannot resist whatever is being offered.
To persuade means to convince using some kind of method that is not coercive.
IOW,,,torture is not a method of persuasion.
Here is what PERSUADE means:
induce (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument.
"it wasn't easy, but I persuaded him to do the right thing"
cause (someone) to believe something, especially after a sustained effort; convince.
"health boards were finally persuaded of the desirability of psychiatric units"
(of a situation or event) provide a sound reason for (someone) to do something.
"the cost of the manor's restoration persuaded them to take in guests"
Do you believe that persuade has a different meaning?
civic
Well-known member
Acts 26:27-29 I know that you do believe.” Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”
peithó: To persuade, to convince, to trust, to have confidence
Original Word: πείθω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peithó
Pronunciation: pay'-tho
Phonetic Spelling: (pi'-tho)
Definition: To persuade, to convince, to trust, to have confidence
Meaning: I persuade, urge.
Word Origin: A primary verb
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent for "peithó," similar concepts can be found in words like בָּטַח (batach - Strong's H982), meaning to trust or have confidence.
Usage: The Greek verb "peithó" primarily means to persuade or convince someone of a particular truth or course of action. It can also imply having confidence or trust in something or someone. In the New Testament, it is often used in contexts where individuals are persuaded to believe in the Gospel or to trust in God. The term can also reflect a sense of obedience that comes from being convinced or assured.
Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, rhetoric and persuasion were highly valued skills, especially in public speaking and philosophical discourse. The ability to persuade was seen as a mark of wisdom and intelligence. In the context of the early Christian church, persuasion was a critical tool for spreading the Gospel and establishing the faith among diverse populations. The apostles and early Christians often engaged in persuasive dialogue to explain and defend their beliefs.
HELPS Word-studies
3982 peíthō(the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy.
The Lord persuades the yielded believer to be confident in His preferred-will (Gal 5:10; 2 Tim 1:12). 3982 (peíthō) involves "obedience, but it is properly the result of (God's) persuasion" (WS, 422).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3982: Πειθώ
Πειθώ, Πειθους, ἡ,
1. Peitho, proper name of a goddess, literally, Persuasion; LatinSuada orSuadela.
2. persuasive power, persuasion: 1 Corinthians 2:4 ἐν πειθοι — accusative to certain inferior authorities. (On the word, see Müller's note on Josephus, contra Apion 2, 21, 3. (Hesiod, Herodotus, others.))
STRONGS NT 3982: πείθωπείθω ((from the root meaning 'to bind'; allied with πίστις, fides, foedus, etc.; Curtius, § 327; Vanicek, p. 592)); imperfect ἔπειθον; future πείσω; 1 aorist ἐπεισα; 2 perfect πέποιθα; pluperfect ἐπεποίθειν (Luke 11:22); passive (or middle, present πείθομαι; imperfect ἐπειθομην); perfect πέπεισμαι; 1 aorist ἐπείσθην; 1 future πεισθήσομαι (Luke 16:31); from Homer down;
1. Active;
a. to persuade, i. e. to induce one by words to believe: absolutely πείσας μετέστησεν ἱκανόν ὄχλον, Acts 19:26; τί, to cause belief in a thing (which one sets forth), Acts 19:8 R G T (cf. Buttmann, 150 (131) n.) (Sophocles O. C. 1442); with the genitive of the thing, ibid. L Tr WH; τινα, one, Acts 18:4; τινα τί, one of a thing, Acts 28:23 Rec. (Herodotus 1, 163; Plato, Apology, p. 37 a., and elsewhere; (cf. Buttmann, as above)); τινα περί τίνος, concerning a thing, ibid. G L T Tr WH.
b. as in classical Greek from Homer down, with an accusative of a person, to make friends of, win one's favor, gain one's good-will, Acts 12:20; or to seek to win one, strive to please one, 2 Corinthians 5:11; Galatians 1:10; to conciliate by persuasion, Matthew 28:14 (here T WH omit; Tr brackets αὐτόν); Acts 14:19; equivalent to to tranquillize (A. V. assure), τάς καρδίας ἡμῶν, 1 John 3:19.
c. to persuade unto i. e. move or induce one by persuasion to do something: τινα followed by an infinitive (R § 139, 46), Acts 13:43; Acts 26:28 (Xenophon, an. 1, 3, 19; Polybius 4, 64,2; Diodorus 11, 15; 12, 39; Josephus, Antiquities 8, 10, 3); τινα followed by ἵνα (cf. Winers Grammar, 338 (317); Buttmann, § 139, 40), Matthew 27:20 (Plutarch, apoph. Alex. 21).
2. Passive and middle (cf. Winers Grammar, 253 (238));
a. to be persuaded, to suffer oneself to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: absol, Luke 16:31; Acts 17:4; to have faith, Hebrews 11:13 Rec.; τίνι, in a thing, Acts 28:24; to believe, namely, ὅτι, Hebrews 13:18 L T Tr WH. πέπεισμαι τί (on the neuter accusative cf. Buttmann, § 131, 10) περί τίνος (genitive of person), to be persuaded (of) a thing concerning a person, Hebrews 6:9 (A. V. we are persuaded better things of you, etc.); πεπεισμένος εἰμί, to have persuaded oneself, and πείθομαι, to believe (cf. English to be persuaded), followed by an accusative with an infinitive, Luke 20:6; Acts 26:26; πέπεισμαι ὅτι, Romans 8:38; 2 Timothy 1:5, 12; with ἐν κυρίῳ added (see ἐν, I. 6 b.), Romans 14:14; περί τίνος ὅτι, Romans 15:14.
b. to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with: τίνι, one, Acts 5:36f, 39(); ; Romans 2:8; Galatians 3:1 Rec.; ; Hebrews 13:17; James 3:3.
3. 2 perfect πέποιθα (the Sept. mostly for בָּטַח, also for חָסָה, נִשְׁעַן Niphal of the unused שָׁעַן), intransitive, to trust, have confidence, be confident: followed by an accusative with an infinitive, Romans 2:19; by ὅτι, Hebrews 13:18 Rec.; by ὅτι with a preparatory αὐτό τοῦτο (Winer's Grammar, § 23, 5), Philippians 1:6; τοῦτο πεποιθώς οἶδα ὅτι, Philippians 1:25; πέποιθα with a dative of the person or the thing in which the confidence reposes (so in classical Greek (on its construction in the N. T. see Buttmann, § 133, 5; Winer's Grammar, 214 (201); § 33, d.)): Philippians 1:14; Philemon 1:21 (2 Kings 17:20; Proverbs 14:16; Proverbs 26:26; Isaiah 28:17; Sir. 35:24 (Sir. 32:24); Wis. 14:29); ἑαυτῷ followed by an infinitive 2 Corinthians 10:7; ἐν τίνι, to trust in, put confidence in a person or thing (cf. Buttmann, as above), Philippians 3:3, 4; ἐν κυρίῳ followed by ὅτι, Philippians 2:24; ἐπί τίνι, Matthew 27:43 L text WH marginal reading; Mark 10:24 (where T WH omit; Tr marginal reading brackets the clause); Luke 11:22; Luke 18:9; 2 Corinthians 1:9; Hebrews 2:13 (and very often in the Sept., as Deuteronomy 28:52; 2 Chronicles 14:11; Psalm 2:13; Proverbs 3:5; Isaiah 8:17; Isaiah 31:1); ἐπί τινα, Matthew 27:43 where L text WH marginal reading ἐπί with the dative (Isaiah 36:5; Habakkuk 2:18; 2 Chronicles 16:7f, etc.); ἐπί τινα followed by ὅτι, 2 Corinthians 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:4; εἰς τινα followed by ὅτι, Galatians 5:10. (Compare: ἀναπείθω.)
GodsGrace
Member
Right.
I like what you stated about some persons being more capable of persuading others to their beliefs.
Donald is one of these persons....he has a unique ability to persuade others to his way of thinking.
Augustine was another one of these persons....he actually changed the reason for baptizing infants because he
changed the meaning of Original Sin. It must have taken a lot of charisma to convince the early church of this basic change.
John Calvin was another....this is why it's called Calvinism instead of Knoxism. (even though the term is not 100% correct).
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks for these definitions of "to persuade", my brother.
I'm using the two first definitions for my argument.
So, imagine that I am thirsty and sick wandering in a desert.
Then you show up.
You try to persuade me to turn to the left and walk down half a mile through a narrow dirty road, claiming that you know that desert quite well, that you have a GPS device in your hand, that you have 100 bucks in your pocket... and there is a house overthere where I will get plenty of water, a shower, protection from the sun, etc.
You would have sort of 50 % chance to persuade me. I may still think you want to steal from me, or deceive me in some way. I may prefer to trust in my own supply of water and food, or in my own experience and knowledge of the desert. So I choose to disregard your offer. You disappear.
Two days later, I have exhausted my supply of water, food, and I am extremely weak. I have realized I cannot trust my own abilities, knowledge or resources. I realize I can't save myself. I am facing risk of death. I ask myself why I rejected your offer...
Then you show up again, with the same offer.
This time you'll have 99.9% chance to persuade me
So I take your offer.Would you be forcing my free will? No, you would not.
That's how I conceive irresistible grace.
God is such a great persuader, good is such a good reason, and man is in such need, that God's offer becomes, sooner or later, irresistible.
Last edited:
MTMattie
Well-known member
I still see both existing at the same time.
First, for me, the concept of irresistible grace lacks a solid biblical foundation. The Scriptures consistently emphasize human responsibility, the nature of God’s call, and the necessity of faith in the process of salvation. Through various passages, it is evident that individuals possess the ability to choose whether to accept or resist God’s grace. And, the theological implications of irresistible grace challenge our understanding of God’s justice, the nature of sin, and the purpose of evangelism.
Grace is an essential part of God’s character. Grace is closely related to God’s benevolence, love, and mercy. Grace can be variously defined as “God’s favor toward the unworthy” or “God’s benevolence on the undeserving.” In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don’t deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously.
Certainly this is desired and irresistible to those who have been taught that in their lives. But....considering the teachings of Scripture advocate for a view of salvation that honors both God’s sovereignty and human agency, underscoring the importance of choice in the relationship between God and humanity. As believers, it is essential to engage with the biblical text critically and to seek a comprehensive understanding of God’s grace that aligns with the entirety of Scripture.
By doing so, we can uphold the truth that while God’s grace is indeed powerful and transformative, it is not without the capacity for resistance, and individuals are called to respond in faith to the saving work of Christ. But once we do that. Once we make that decision. Then everything offered is irresistible unless you remain lukewarm all your lives.
I see it as .... our free will choice to decide and make that decision in faith and belief then , and only then will the Holy Spirit work in us. It is a choice we make and then if you want to call it irresistible grace takes place. We are not chosen
without our will and permission. No one is. But once we move that way, then God takes over through God the Spirit and God the Son.
I just simply see it as both existing for even His chosen were given the opportunity and not all followed. That is why Jesus had to be sent for the lost. And at that still not all followed.
It was there... this Grace, irresistible or not... for those who would accept. It was a choice.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Not that I agree with your reasoning, but even 99.9% is not, by definition, irresistible.
Similar threads
