Dizerner
Well-known member
I don't agree that is necessarily true. You can threaten for other reasons.
And clearly something can be BOTH a warning AND a threat at the same time.
A Baptist View of Free Will
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
I don't agree that is necessarily true. You can threaten for other reasons.
And clearly something can be BOTH a warning AND a threat at the same time.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thank you, sister.
Well, free will, as any other human capacity, is limited.
We certainly know this from examining the development of free will in children, and how mentally disabled people have reduced autonomy and depend in different degrees from the will of their caretakers.
To make a choice, we consider our primary impulses (fear, hunger, sex drive, etc) as well as our cognitive processes. Both are important.
Our cognitive processes are limited. We get persuaded more easily that we would like to admit, to do both good things and bad things.... contrary to what we wanted to do in the beginning.
We know that children and some mentally disabled people are more easily persuaded because their cognitive processes are both immature and devoid of the specific content they would sometimes need to do a better choice (ie, what we call experience).
In neurologically healthy people like you and me, cognition is also limited.
Many times we think we thought out a decision, when in reality we are being guided in part by our primary impulses, and our rationale is just post hoc (we build an excuse to support the choice we made, that make us feel good about our successful choice or not too bad of our wrong choice). To some extent, we are still partially slave of our flesh... seeking for God's freedom.
If our free will were informed by perfect cognition, infinite wisdom, perhaps we wouldn't need God's grace.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Why preach the gospel at all IF God is going to choose the saved and the lost???
Johann
Well-known member
@GodsGrace is not a Calvinist, and I’ll take it a step further-if my free will is not aligned with Christ and the Holy Spirit, I remain in my sins and have not been reborn.
J.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I never said they were. This is a response to the OP.
Every Christian willfully sins at times, we are not kicked out of Christ and losing our new birth every time we mess up.
Johann
Well-known member
We are supposed to be dead to the ego eimi according to the Scriptures-our will swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus.
J.
MTMattie
Well-known member
MTMattie
Well-known member
It is an oxymoron.
atpollard
Well-known member
Why did Paul preach to Lydia in Acts 16:14 if the LORD was going to open her heart?
Why did Jesus preach to "not of my sheep" in John 10:25-26?
Why did the "sower" sow the seed on all 4 soils in Luke 8?
- Answer:
- [Eph 2:10 KJV] "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
- 1 Co 3:6-7 [KJV] "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."
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civic
Well-known member
free will as i moral abilities to choose between right and wrong for example, to choose to follow Christ or reject Him as a couple examples. I also have the free will choice to poison myself with drugs and alcohol or not take them and be healthy. I can choose to eat healthy or not. We have many free will choices that we make in our daily lives.
atpollard
Well-known member
Are you sure it is GOD that has blinded you to the truth? [2 Corinthians 4:4]
Just teasing, since your comment sort of invited a snarky response.
Dizerner
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Within reformed theology there are many different views of sovereignty and predestination- not everyone holds to the same ideas and many believe calvin was 4 point not 5.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I'm so glad some Calvinists don't believe God's divine decree determined all decisions of his creation.
You'd almost think they were Arminians.
civic
Well-known member
Total ABILITY. 
James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,
James 4:6
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Daniel 10:12
Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.
1 Kings 21:29
“Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the disaster upon his house.”
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.
Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Psalm 25:9
He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way.
Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.
Proverbs 3:34
Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor.
Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
How many times must God say something before the calvinist will believe Gods word and commands ?
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
And we know why he saved them. He saved them because they had a contrite spirit or that they chose humility. Notice he didn't impart in them contrition and humility AND THEN he saved them. They chose to have humility towards God's word and salvation followed!
God can't put in one actual humility. God can humble his people BUT that IS NOT humility. Deuteronomy 8:3 says God humbled them, and suffered them to hunger, and fed them with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." However that didn't mean they had humility! They could still get offended in pride and complain and murmur to God and begin to worship other gods which they did most of the time and that certainly wasn't humility.
Calvinism says God saves those that he just chooses too. Good to know the way in which his choice is made....do they choose to walk in humility? Do they receive Jesus as their Lord and King and be glad that they've done so! James says that God resists the proud so if he resists them how can he saved them? Impossible! He does NOT put humility in them. He does not put humility in any one! In James 4:6 we read God resists the proud BUT...he gives his GRACE unto the ones that have humility. There's no indication there that God put anything in them relative to salvation at all! Why? Because they have pride. When Jesus was on the cross the two on each side of him....one chose humility and asked for God's mercy and Jesus said he'd be with him now in paradise....the other not. Lk 23:43 God is merely observing and watching what type of spirit the chose ,THEY CHOSE to have.
In Luke 18:19 we read, "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.(in other words he walked in pride) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner."(he embraced humility) "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Notice NO INDICATION God imparted humility or pride in either. God merely observed and responded to whatever spirit THEY CHOSE to have. To actually say God puts humility in one which we would say would be a type of blessing is however to say God would do something he's already said he doesn't do! HE GIVE HIS GRACE....TO.....THE ONE WHO CHOOSES HUMILITY. Not to the ones which haven't. This would mean what Calvinists call their doctrines of Grace aren't actually in truth the doctrines of Grace for grace doesn't work in the way in which they think. That's not to say many Calvinists aren't saved but many things they think about GRACE need to be adjusted.
Yes humility, repentance and faith is our part. God saved those who humble themselves. repent of their sins and place their trust in the gospel message- the Person and work of Christ for their salvation. He saves us after we believe the gospel, repent of our sins and humble ourselves before Him. This is not a "work" to earn salvation but it is a broken/contrite heart over our sin that kept us from a relationship with our Savior. God does not believe or repent for us and will leave us in our sinful pride.
Commands are meaningless and actually a lie if we cannot obey them.
hope this helps !!!
James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,
James 4:6
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Daniel 10:12
Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.
1 Kings 21:29
“Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the disaster upon his house.”
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.
Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Psalm 25:9
He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way.
Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.
Proverbs 3:34
Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor.
Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
How many times must God say something before the calvinist will believe Gods word and commands ?
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
And we know why he saved them. He saved them because they had a contrite spirit or that they chose humility. Notice he didn't impart in them contrition and humility AND THEN he saved them. They chose to have humility towards God's word and salvation followed!
God can't put in one actual humility. God can humble his people BUT that IS NOT humility. Deuteronomy 8:3 says God humbled them, and suffered them to hunger, and fed them with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." However that didn't mean they had humility! They could still get offended in pride and complain and murmur to God and begin to worship other gods which they did most of the time and that certainly wasn't humility.
Calvinism says God saves those that he just chooses too. Good to know the way in which his choice is made....do they choose to walk in humility? Do they receive Jesus as their Lord and King and be glad that they've done so! James says that God resists the proud so if he resists them how can he saved them? Impossible! He does NOT put humility in them. He does not put humility in any one! In James 4:6 we read God resists the proud BUT...he gives his GRACE unto the ones that have humility. There's no indication there that God put anything in them relative to salvation at all! Why? Because they have pride. When Jesus was on the cross the two on each side of him....one chose humility and asked for God's mercy and Jesus said he'd be with him now in paradise....the other not. Lk 23:43 God is merely observing and watching what type of spirit the chose ,THEY CHOSE to have.
In Luke 18:19 we read, "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.(in other words he walked in pride) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner."(he embraced humility) "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Notice NO INDICATION God imparted humility or pride in either. God merely observed and responded to whatever spirit THEY CHOSE to have. To actually say God puts humility in one which we would say would be a type of blessing is however to say God would do something he's already said he doesn't do! HE GIVE HIS GRACE....TO.....THE ONE WHO CHOOSES HUMILITY. Not to the ones which haven't. This would mean what Calvinists call their doctrines of Grace aren't actually in truth the doctrines of Grace for grace doesn't work in the way in which they think. That's not to say many Calvinists aren't saved but many things they think about GRACE need to be adjusted.
Yes humility, repentance and faith is our part. God saved those who humble themselves. repent of their sins and place their trust in the gospel message- the Person and work of Christ for their salvation. He saves us after we believe the gospel, repent of our sins and humble ourselves before Him. This is not a "work" to earn salvation but it is a broken/contrite heart over our sin that kept us from a relationship with our Savior. God does not believe or repent for us and will leave us in our sinful pride.
Commands are meaningless and actually a lie if we cannot obey them.
hope this helps !!!
GodsGrace
Well-known member
You'll have to define free will because we had agreed on a definition and the above comment
falls away from that definition.
Unless you mean that we are limited and are not able decide whether or not we should kill a person.
Could we discuss adults here?
Agreed.
All of the above have moral components.
Agreed.
But you're discussing persuasion.
Persuasion can be part of our final decision.
The question at hand is: Do we have free will?
Will keep reading...
My ganddaughter is on the spectrum (autism) and, believe me, she has free will.
I believe that once we accept God's direction...we become free of satan's grip.
This does not mean we will never sin again...man will always sin.
But salvation gives us the capacity to work with a mind that is in line with God's desires for us
and we will always take His commands into consideration.
Those that do not believe in God will listen only to their own congnitive abilities.
Couldn't disagree more.
We will ALWAYS need God's grace.
Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing and that we are to ABIDE in Him.
Do you believe in the sin nature of man?
Do you believe man could achieve some kind of perfection on his own?
Pelagius believed this.
MTMattie
Well-known member
His game. He makes the rules. Free will people must be more fun to him.... I would think
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Once we define any human capacity, the definition does not imply that the capacity is unlimited.
For example, agreeing on what "memory" means, does not imply that I can remember what happened to me on March 13th, 2011 by 5:00 PM.
According to the definition we agreed on, if I have free will, I will be able to choose between two moral options... say A and B.
But to choose between A and B I need first to identify A and B with enough clarity: what A and B really are, what are the consequences, why I feel inclined to choose or reject A and B, etc.
Let's take the example you provide:
Our ability to decide on whether we should kill a person may be severely challenged by circumstances like war or defending from an aggression. Even abortion and euthanasia have been subject to the same debate. This gets further complicated when, instead of "killing", we go through different degrees of "hurting" or "putting a life in risk".
In many of these situations it would be difficult to know whether a person actually "decided" to kill/not kill (or hurt/not hurt) or was just allowing her more primitive impulses to take control because her cognitive skills could not help her much.
Well, I would gently suggest to keep small children and mentally disabled people in the loop within any discussion about free will.
By doing this we keep the perspective of the whole spectrum of free will: how it develops, what it means for the person in question and how it impacts our understanding and the judgement we often pass unto others.
Could we keep them as part of the discussion?
(Please think: how could we discuss "human sight" if we don't include in the discussion the visually impaired people?)
We do.
I believe you for sure.
It is good that you mention the term "spectrum", because within the spectrum of autism (and many other conditions) there is a spectrum of free will. Not all autistic children are able to identify with the same clarity what they want, what they need, what other people want and need, what good or harm can A or B cause, etc. Furthermore, the ability to realize that they MUST make a decision is not the same.
They show us that free will moves within the spectrum of the cognitive abilities free will needs to operate.
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